is Brunswick a dying dinosaur??

[Diogenes]

just saw the thread about centenial balls are $400
aramith pro is in the $260 RANGE
most played on table in tournaments is diamond not Brunswick (imho)
is brunswick a second class citizen now for sure??

Only to an overzealous Diamond table owner... retailer... or employee of Diamond perhaps. I can't attest to the latest production of Brunswick within the last year or so... but I know that I'll put my GC-IV up against any Diamond out there in how well tuned it plays... and so will anyone who has ever shot on my table.

I'm not going to bash Cyclop balls (mainly because I've never shot with a set). I do read complaints all of the time about them but I have 2 sets of Centennials (standard and TV Tour) and 1 set of Aramith Super Pros and they all roll quite true and rack tight... so I have no reason to spend money on a set of Cyclops.

As for my table... I like the classic look of the GC table and the contoured rails as opposed to the boxy (butcher's block) look of the Diamond... but that's just my personal taste. I wouldn't mind having an older Centennial table (strictly because I love the "ultimate" classic look), but I assure you that a Centennial as well as any Diamond table out there won't play any better than my GC-IV.

As for the OP's quote "most played on table in tournaments is diamond not Brunswick (imho)"... not from what I see televised in the men's "pro" tournaments. It seems like most "pro" tournaments that I've watched over the past year or two have been played on 10' Brunswick tables... and they are running racks like crazy. But I have to admit that I'm spending far more time shooting than watching these days.

I think that it's all about how you set your table up (if it's a quality table) and not if it's a Diamond or a Brunswick.

 

[pdcue]

Only to an overzealous Diamond table owner... retailer... or employee of Diamond perhaps. I can't attest to the latest production of Brunswick within the last year or so... but I know that I'll put my GC-IV up against any Diamond out there in how well tuned it plays... and so will anyone who has ever shot on my table.

I'm not going to bash Cyclop balls (mainly because I've never shot with a set). I do read complaints all of the time about them but I have 2 sets of Centennials (standard and TV Tour) and 1 set of Aramith Super Pros and they all roll quite true and rack tight... so I have no reason to spend money on a set of Cyclops.

As for my table... I like the classic look of the GC table and the contoured rails as opposed to the boxy (butcher's block) look of the Diamond... but that's just my personal taste. I wouldn't mind having an older Centennial table (strictly because I love the "ultimate" classic look), but I assure you that a Centennial as well as any Diamond table out there won't play any better than my GC-IV.

As for the OP's quote "most played on table in tournaments is diamond not Brunswick (imho)"... not from what I see televised in the men's "pro" tournaments. It seems like most "pro" tournaments that I've watched over the past year or two have been played on 10' Brunswick tables... and they are running racks like crazy. But I have to admit that I'm spending far more time shooting than watching these days.

I think that it's all about how you set your table up (if it's a quality table) and not if it's a Diamond or a Brunswick.

Sorry - I've played on GC-IVs set up "right" with a capital R - and they do play good...
but they absolutely, positively, DO NOT play as well as a good Centennial.

Dale

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Oh, I'd say Brunswicks hold up pretty well. The Illinois Billiard Club:

 

[jalapus logan]

Oh, I'd say Brunswicks hold up pretty well. The Illinois Billiard Club:

I notice that there is not one Gold Crown amongst the bunch there. The tables you show there are some of the best made, IMO and with timeless style. Too bad you can't get ones new like those.

 

[ugotactionTX]

The Brunswick "Gibson" is a pretty close copy ( at least appearance wise) to the Anniversary tables of the past. I have never played on one but they LOOK pretty close style wise. I know they are very proud of their BNIB tables and price them accordingly...

 

[Mr. Bond]

I notice that there is not one Gold Crown amongst the bunch there. The tables you show there are some of the best made, IMO and with timeless style. Too bad you can't get ones new like those.

The Gold Crown 5 ( or 4, I forget) is just out of view to the right of the photographer.

Fyi the two tables furthest away from the camera are magnificent. One is the Brunswick Arcade or Arcadian carom version and the other is a mind boggling " convertible" 10ft table with the whole body and frame made of STEEL, circa 1915 or so ( Keefe and Hamer brand made by Sykes Steel) that was hand painted to resemble real wood. It features two separate sets of rails, one for pocket billiards and one for carom, with a ball return that runs on rubber coated steel rails outside of the frame around the outside of the table. Belongs in the Smithsonian.

 

[AtLarge]

... I like the classic look of the GC table and the contoured rails as opposed to the boxy (butcher's block) look of the Diamond...

Sounds like you'd prefer the Diamond Professional to the Diamond Pro-Am: http://www.diamondbilliards.com/index.php/home-page/professional

As for the OP's quote "most played on table in tournaments is diamond not Brunswick (imho)"... not from what I see televised in the men's "pro" tournaments. It seems like most "pro" tournaments that I've watched over the past year or two have been played on 10' Brunswick tables... and they are running racks like crazy. But I have to admit that I'm spending far more time shooting than watching these days. ...

Maybe you mean 9' rather than 10'. I don't recall any recent major pro tournament on 10-footers other than the Bigfoot Challenge at the Derby City Classic (and Southern Classic), and those tables are Diamonds. Many of the other "pro" events these days are played on Diamond 9-footers.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

...One is the Brunswick Arcade or Arcadian carom version and the other is a mind boggling " convertible" 10ft table with the whole body and frame made of STEEL, circa 1915 or so ( Keefe and Hamer brand made by Sykes Steel) that was hand painted to resemble real wood. It features two separate sets of rails, one for pocket billiards and one for carom, with a ball return that runs on rubber coated steel rails outside of the frame around the outside of the table. Belongs in the Smithsonian.

Yeah, I did a double take. My first reaction to the picture was "Why is there a ball return on a billiard table?" Then I noticed the pocket nets.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I grew up playing on Brunsick tables and they were a large sponsor in my TV events. Their company at the time was a Billion+ and mainly focused on speed boats.

Pool has been a tiny blip on Brunswick's business radar for a long long time.

 

[BBC]

Brunswick a Dying Dinosaur?

Ah, the IBC...

Mr. Bond, the Gold Crown you're referring to is a first generation Gold Grown I with a plastic name plate...

The table was actually donated by former IBC member and famous Chicago Cubs Pitcher Milt Pappas.

Milt purchased the table in 1961 for his home, after his retirement from baseball he donated to the IBC and was formally presented to the IBC at their grand re-opening of their current location in 1990.

The Keefe and Hamer brand table made by Sykes Steel came from its original 1916 home designed by architect, Frank Lloyd Wright.

Brunswick is alive and well at the IBC.

BBC

 

[nobcitypool]

I think the OP was if Brunswick is a dying dinosaur? I think the OP meant to add "as far as their billiards segment goes". I think without question the answer is a definitive yes, it is a dying dinosaur as far as their pool related business goes. This has clearly been the case for quite some time, not sure why this is even brought up as a question.

None of this is to question the quality of past Brunswick products. No question, they were a significant presence in the billiards industry at one time. While their legacy is still a significant presence, their present day activities warrant almost zero consideration. Their billiards business is essentially insignificant to their bottom line and I'll bet their R&D Investment and Capital Investment in new tooling is next to nothing. They're milking it for whatever profits they can and I would also bet, the minute this small segment of their business begins to show a loss, it will be gone.

By no means does that mean those with Brunswick tables are screwed. They have a HUGE installed base and that creates a nice aftermarket business for numerous small companies and individuals.

As far as the Brunswick vs Diamond debate, as with cues, cue makers, tips, chalk, etc., beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I think anyone who has a well maintained Brunwick or Diamond table in their home is very fortunate. Obviously, someone who has aspirations to play in the Professional or high level tournaments would likely benefit more by playing/practicing on a Diamond at this point in time.

 

[pdcue]

I think the OP was if Brunswick is a dying dinosaur? I think the OP meant to add "as far as their billiards segment goes". I think without question the answer is a definitive yes, it is a dying dinosaur as far as their pool related business goes. This has clearly been the case for quite some time, not sure why this is even brought up as a question.

None of this is to question the quality of past Brunswick products. No question, they were a significant presence in the billiards industry at one time. While their legacy is still a significant presence, their present day activities warrant almost zero consideration. Their billiards business is essentially insignificant to their bottom line and I'll bet their R&D Investment and Capital Investment in new tooling is next to nothing. They're milking it for whatever profits they can and I would also bet, the minute this small segment of their business begins to show a loss, it will be gone.

By no means does that mean those with Brunswick tables are screwed. They have a HUGE installed base and that creates a nice aftermarket business for numerous small companies and individuals.

As far as the Brunswick vs Diamond debate, as with cues, cue makers, tips, chalk, etc., beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I think anyone who has a well maintained Brunwick or Diamond table in their home is very fortunate. Obviously, someone who has aspirations to play in the Professional or high level tournaments would likely benefit more by playing/practicing on a Diamond at this point in time.

Well, I think you need to add yet another "I think..."

That would be ... in regard to Commercial table sales.

Tables for poolrooms and tournaments only respond to the release of a pool
themed movie from a story written by Walter Tevis and staring Paul Newman.
Otherwise, tables for the serious player are a small fraction of their Billiard revenue.
There is still plenty of demand(relatively speaking) in their Home Tables and will be for
years to come.

Dale

 

[Mr. Bond]

Ah, the IBC...

Mr. Bond, the Gold Crown you're referring to is a first generation Gold Grown I with a plastic name plate...

The table was actually donated by former IBC member and famous Chicago Cubs Pitcher Milt Pappas.

Milt purchased the table in 1961 for his home, after his retirement from baseball he donated to the IBC and was formally presented to the IBC at their grand re-opening of their current location in 1990.

The Keefe and Hamer brand table made by Sykes Steel came from its original 1916 home designed by architect, Frank Lloyd Wright.

Brunswick is alive and well at the IBC.

BBC

Joe- are you talking about the one closest to the mirrors and bar?
That's the one I'm thinking of...I'm pretty sure it can't be a GCI..

 

[Mikiemopa]

Wow, just did a search, those ball sets are $400. Did they change something with the ball. I thought they are the same as the pro aramith set but just a different design. I have a set of the brunswick centennials and love them, also a brunswick table. I haven't had any issues with it and it's 15 years old. I do think diamond tables are a better product, but I prefer the brunswick for playing. Most of the pool halls I gone in still have some sort of brunswick. To me right now is the price, you can find a heck of a deal on a used brunswick, diamonds are lots of money.

 

[BBC]

Brunswick Gold Crown I

Mr Bond,

It is a GC1...

Jim told me it had a white cream finish, he stripped off all the paint, stained and finished Mahogany to match the Anniversary tables.

The Gold Crown was offered in four combination colors, Blue, Gold, Tangerine and Classic White Aprons with Rosewood Formica rails and Bright White legs.

The plastic name plate is a dead giveaway, see photo.

Joe

 

[Mr. Bond]

Mr Bond,

It is a GC1...

Jim told me it had a white cream finish, he stripped off all the paint, stained and finished Mahogany to match the Anniversary tables.

The Gold Crown was offered in four combination colors, Blue, Gold, Tangerine and Classic White Aprons with Rosewood Formica rails and Bright White legs.

The plastic name plate is a dead giveaway, see photo.

Joe

View attachment 369190

Sorry I missed your call, yeah now I understand , it was the restoration work that threw me off. I guess I never looked at it super close, I just know that it looks wayyyyy nicer than a Gc1. ( now I know why) I always play on the K&H when it's available.

 

[Mr. Bond]

To address the original post-
Brunswick is down but definitely not out.

The "dinosaur " you speak of, is in fact almost dead , but Brunswick is not the dinosaur.

The concept of being the best in the business because your products are actually built to last, on purpose, is the dinosaur.
The concept of striving to, and being proud to, produce a product solely in America is the dinosaur.

It just happens to be that Brunswick is neither concerned with American production nor long term quality anymore.

They have joined the masses of corporate minded ninnies who study planned obsolescence so that your table is in fact designed to fail instead of last.
If they sell you a table that lasts 4 generations, you'll only buy one, every hundred years.

Why care about American made pride when we can make more money?

That being said, don't think for a moment that they are going away.
They have a strong hold on the market all over the world despite the fact that it only makes up a small percentage of their net worth.
That just makes them a small gun with very big bullets.


The previous statement is of course merely an opinion and should not be mistaken for facts.

unless they are.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Illinois billiard club

Not trying to change the subject but IBC came up in the posts of this thread.

Just wanting to acknowledge Jim and Bonnie Parker.
That place is amazing - I was only there once around 1996 or so.

I had talked to Jim several times previously and he made a beautiful sandblasted mirror with the diamond system shown. This was for the Anchorage Billiard Palace.

He is a real gem and a total credit to the billiard industry!

Happy New Year to the IBC!
Markg

 

[00john]

I love Brunswick GC's! My mechanic closes up the pockets n its a real joy to play!