Is Dominant Eye Really What's Important?

[lfigueroa]

With all this talk lately about dominate eyeballs I wanted to throw in my 2cents:

I believe that the dominant eye 
concept -- while interesting and of some value -- is superseded in importance by the
 setup that gives you your best stroke.

IOW, it's better to ignore your
 dominant eye and use the setup that gives you your optimal stroke. And a 
second thought is that what is truly important when it comes to seeing the
 table is just having the exact same view every time you setup. IOW, you can 
ignore the dominant eye thing because if you're seeing the balls the same each time,
 your wetware will learn what is center, though physically it may be a tad off.



Now here's another thought concerning seeing the balls. I think that some 
of the very hardest things to learn are what those things are that we alter in
 our setup when under duress. When we play more slowly, or more carefully,
 or more quickly, or whatever, there is a strong likelihood of changing the 
sequence of motions we normally use to get into shooting position. And when
 you do that, you end up changing the view of the table that
 you're accustomed to.

I know that when I start playing poorly, I have the 
feeling that I'm not seeing things right -- it's the old "I know I'm 
going to miss this shot" before you pull the trigger vs. the "there's no way
 I can miss this one" we enjoy when hitting the balls well. IOW, it's not
 a mental thing. You feel weak because you're not in your normal setup and
 your brain knows it's not getting the right view and it sets off all those 
little alarm bells. Consistency and being able to perform under pressure
 come 
to visit when you can ID those little changes you unconsciously make and
 eliminate them from creeping into your setup.



So in addition to learning all those good and wonderful things you need to 
know about how the balls react off each other and your cue tip, it is 
equally important, IMO, to learn about yourself and how to deal with that 
little gremlin that comes and sits on the wing of your Good Ship Lollipop 
while you're trying to fly through the storm.



Lou Figueroa


 

[SpiderWebComm]

With all this talk lately about dominate eyeballs I wanted to throw in my 2cents:

I believe that the dominant eye 
concept -- while interesting and of some value -- is superseded in importance by the
 setup that gives you your best stroke.

It's your vision that takes you to the proper path. I'm not discounting a setup that gives you your best stroke, but setup "TO WHAT." If your vision provides a false picture, what are you really setting up to? A perfect stroke to nowhere?

IOW, it's better to ignore your
 dominant eye and use the setup that gives you your optimal stroke.

Once again, stroking straight to nowhere doesn't get you very far.

And a 
second thought is that what is truly important when it comes to seeing the
 table is just having the exact same view every time you setup. IOW, you can 
ignore the dominant eye thing because if you're seeing the balls the same each time,
 your wetware will learn what is center, though physically it may be a tad off.



Not true for all people. I don't see the same for every shot--- my perspective changes based on which direction I'm cutting because I have a VERY strong dominant eye. I think you're basing your opinion on how you see --- and because Lou F sees this way --- everyone else is on the wrong track.

I think many people lose many, many years of progression because they don't take the time to learn how they see --- and how it affects their game.

Setup is really important --- but nothing supercedes vision. Without the correct "picture" of the shot, setup doesn't mean a thing unless you get lucky. Stroking straight along the wrong sight line won't get you far.


The bottom line is there are people (like myself) who STRUGGLE with strong dominant eyes--- even people where their dominant eye shifts. Given, these people are in the minority and this material doesn't apply to everyone. However, to discount it because you don't have that issue doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[mosconiac]

So would you suggest that to a sniper? Hey, buddy you can hit that target just as easy if you put the rifle up to your ear....or between your legs...or off your opposite shoulder.

IMO, eye dominance in one piece of the puzzle...that needs to be considered when developing your set position. If you're extremely eye dominant like Earl or Shannon, you will (and should) have your cue under your cheek.

 

[lfigueroa]

It's your vision that takes you to the proper path. I'm not discounting a setup that gives you your best stroke, but setup "TO WHAT." If your vision provides a false picture, what are you really setting up to? A perfect stroke to nowhere?


Once again, stroking straight to nowhere doesn't get you very far.


Not true for all people. I don't see the same for every shot--- my perspective changes based on which direction I'm cutting because I have a VERY strong dominant eye. I think you're basing your opinion on how you see --- and because Lou F sees this way --- everyone else is on the wrong track.

I think many people lose many, many years of progression because they don't take the time to learn how they see --- and how it affects their game.

Setup is really important --- but nothing supercedes vision. Without the correct "picture" of the shot, setup doesn't mean a thing unless you get lucky. Stroking straight along the wrong sight line won't get you far.


The bottom line is there are people (like myself) who STRUGGLE with strong dominant eyes--- even people where their dominant eye shifts. Given, these people are in the minority and this material doesn't apply to everyone. However, to discount it because you don't have that issue doesn't do anyone any good.

Vision is important, but important in that your eyes give your brain a consistent view. Given that the balls are typically several feet in front of you, a bit to the right, left, or centered under your chin is not not what's important, IMO. Give yourself a consistent view and your brain can figure it out from there.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

So would you suggest that to a sniper? Hey, buddy you can hit that target just as easy if you put the rifle up to your ear....or between your legs...or off your opposite shoulder.

IMO, eye dominance in one piece of the puzzle...that needs to be considered when developing your set position. If you're extremely eye dominant like Earl or Shannon, you will (and should) have your cue under your cheek.

A sniper, lol? We're talking about shooting pool. I wouldn't tell a sniper to hold his rifle a couple feet under his chin, ala Mosconi, either ;-)

As to Earl and Shannon: do you know for a fact that they are favoring their dominant eye, or that they are "extremely eye dominant," or are you just making assumptions?

Lou Figueroa

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Vision is important, but important in that your eyes give your brain a consistent view.

Lou Figueroa

That's my point. Not everyone's eyes give their brain a consistent view. You're lucky yours do.

 

[DGunter]

I have to disagree....atleast in part. You do need to give yourself a consistent view, but wouldn't it benefit you to give yourself a consistent correct view? I don't think you can even really craft a straight stroke without a correct sight picture....well i guess you could, but you won't be able to make a ball in the ocean with it.

I, like Spider above, have a strongly dominant eye. Once upon a time, I tried to alter my setup to be more fundamentaly sound. Should have got an instructor to help me before I did that on my own. It did massive damage to my game...atleast for a time. I had a good fundamental setup, but I wasn't seeing the shots right because I was out of alignment with my dominant eye.

You gotta have both IMO, but the sight picture has to come first. Then craft a fundamentally sound setup based on that.

 

[pdcue]

With all this talk lately about dominate eyeballs I wanted to throw in my 2cents:

I believe that the dominant eye 
concept -- while interesting and of some value -- is superseded in importance by the
 setup that gives you your best stroke.

IOW, it's better to ignore your
 dominant eye and use the setup that gives you your optimal stroke. And a 
second thought is that what is truly important when it comes to seeing the
 table is just having the exact same view every time you setup. IOW, you can 
ignore the dominant eye thing because if you're seeing the balls the same each time,
 your wetware will learn what is center, though physically it may be a tad off.



Now here's another thought concerning seeing the balls. I think that some 
of the very hardest things to learn are what those things are that we alter in
 our setup when under duress. When we play more slowly, or more carefully,
 or more quickly, or whatever, there is a strong likelihood of changing the 
sequence of motions we normally use to get into shooting position. And when
 you do that, you end up changing the view of the table that
 you're accustomed to.

I know that when I start playing poorly, I have the 
feeling that I'm not seeing things right -- it's the old "I know I'm 
going to miss this shot" before you pull the trigger vs. the "there's no way
 I can miss this one" we enjoy when hitting the balls well. IOW, it's not
 a mental thing. You feel weak because you're not in your normal setup and
 your brain knows it's not getting the right view and it sets off all those 
little alarm bells. Consistency and being able to perform under pressure
 come 
to visit when you can ID those little changes you unconsciously make and
 eliminate them from creeping into your setup.



So in addition to learning all those good and wonderful things you need to 
know about how the balls react off each other and your cue tip, it is 
equally important, IMO, to learn about yourself and how to deal with that 
little gremlin that comes and sits on the wing of your Good Ship Lollipop 
while you're trying to fly through the storm.



Lou Figueroa


I think you have implied, perhaps not intentionally, that dominant eye
alignment and "best stroke" setup are somehow in conflict.

In my experience, I have not encountered any conflict. YMMV.

Dale

 

[3kushn]

My first lesson about 15 years ago the instructor changed my stance and positioned my chin over the cue. I struggled for six months getting it to work. Now that hes gone I've migrated over a little where the cue is under my right eye or at least close. This is where I see the line. Other instructors have tried to change me back. I ignore them. I gave it years of my life and am sure I shouldn't go there.

Doing the test for dominance seems to usually shows I'm right eyed. But I've also done the tests that indicate left eyed. It depends on how careful you do the test and seems you should do it several time to figure the which one is more so.

As one prominent Instructor (SL) constantly says, your head needs to be where you see the straight line. That could be the side of your cheek. I suppose it could be under your non dominant eye too.

A point in your favor is:
genomachino talks about allowing your non dominate eye do some work depending on the side of the ob you're aiming. This technique has allowed me to feather balls at will from 10 feet.

For me dominance is not something I think about. I think about seeing the shot. If I don't see it and therefore don't deliver I adjust till I find the sweet spot then lock it in.

 

[BasementDweller]

I'm with Lou on this one.

After reading all the posts about eye dominance I started wondering about my setup. So, the next time I was at the table I was standing over a long straight in shot. While down in my stance, I moved my head to the left a couple inches - the shot looked WAY OFF. Then I moved my head back past my cue to the right a couple of inches - the shot looked WAY OFF. I then put my head back where I normally place it (pretty much right over the cue) and the shot was now lined up properly in my field of vision.

That was pretty much it for me. I don't understand why this wouldn't be an intuitive part of the learning process for everybody. I would think the reason Earl or anybody for that matter would line up with the cue slightly off center would be because that's what it takes for the shot to "look right". So even if a person has a really dominant eye I wouldn't think you would have to spend a great deal of time figuring this out.

 

[cleary]

My dominate eye changes and its very annoying. When I get down and its different... I just don't feel right. I can still hit (I think) the center of the cueball but the cueball does not travel along the same path I thought it would. In fact at that point, a straight line is not straight anymore.

Of course, if its not a problem with you it may sound silly but it sucks for me.

For instance. I was playing someone last night some 1pocket. Getting 10-6, I've never ended up loser in this game against this guy. We were even after 4 games when my eye switched. Its not easy to tell whats going on but things just don't really feel right and thinning balls and what not, its hard to tell exactly if things are working the way I wanted. It took me to being stuck 3 games to realize I need to switch to my right eye. I'm 85% left eye dominate so I try to 'shoot through it' when possible. As soon as I switched eyes, I won 3 straight games and back to even.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

IMO, if a player has a 'dominate eye' issue and is shooting a straight in shot, he will miss if the posititioning of the head over the shaft hasn't been corrected. This also is in accordance with all the 'dominate eye' instructors.

But, IMO, a miss is also possible if the stroke isn't straight and on the right target line. Also in accordance with instructors.

Now, IMO, there are two possible reasons to miss shots that are straight in. Head positioning and Stroke consistancy.

How can you adjust your head for the 'dominate eye' issue if your stroke hasn't progressed enough to be consistant and good enough to be confident when you are shooting?

IMO a stroke is a lot more important then trying to fix the 'dominate eye' issue.

And, this IMO, is a BIG 'AND', if you practice enough to get to that desired level of stroke consistancy, you will be making more balls and getting better shape, because your brain and eye have 'learned' to overcome the 'dominate eye' issue, all by themself. IMO, that's how it is suppose to work with the Dominate eye. Otherwise when walking in a straight line you'll be veering to the left or right slightly all your life.

 

[JoeW]

Here is the way I see it.

Playing pool is not like shooting a gun or throwing darts. It requires binocular vision to see the off center spot on the cue ball to hit on a line through the cue ball to the object ball. Sending a cue ball at an angle from the straight ahead line is best seen with binocular vision. Calculating the effects of throw based on some chosen line and the required cue tip placement is best addressed with two eyes.

My brain has accommodated to the idea that one of my eyes sees better (differently) than the other eye. My brain operates from the center line of the body and has learned to adjust its calculations based on the disparity between my eyes. That is to say my brain tends to have a preference for one eye over the other and is able to make some exquisite calculations about where things are located relative to other things given the inequality of visual ability. Simply put, the brain knows what to do with unequal eyes and demonstrates this by what others call visual dominance.

Therefore, when I play pool I center the stick on my chin and let the brain make all of its usual calculations. This is the way it prefers to operate because over time it has learned that this is the best way for me to locate things “out there.”

To place my dominant eye over the cue is to defeat the natural way my brain prefers to work.

In my experience the brain wants a benchmark from which to make all those calculations. It is for this reason that I have trained myself to always place my chin over the cue stick and have my eyes in the same place for each shot. To do otherwise is to add extra complications.

 

[Ratta]

It's your vision that takes you to the proper path. I'm not discounting a setup that gives you your best stroke, but setup "TO WHAT." If your vision provides a false picture, what are you really setting up to? A perfect stroke to nowhere?


Once again, stroking straight to nowhere doesn't get you very far.


Not true for all people. I don't see the same for every shot--- my perspective changes based on which direction I'm cutting because I have a VERY strong dominant eye. I think you're basing your opinion on how you see --- and because Lou F sees this way --- everyone else is on the wrong track.

I think many people lose many, many years of progression because they don't take the time to learn how they see --- and how it affects their game.

Setup is really important --- but nothing supercedes vision. Without the correct "picture" of the shot, setup doesn't mean a thing unless you get lucky. Stroking straight along the wrong sight line won't get you far.


The bottom line is there are people (like myself) who STRUGGLE with strong dominant eyes--- even people where their dominant eye shifts. Given, these people are in the minority and this material doesn't apply to everyone. However, to discount it because you don't have that issue doesn't do anyone any good.

Well choosen words Dave!
Meanwhile i prefer furthermore teachin my students to align that way, that they settin themselves up straight into the *shotline* -so that they are also perfectly aligned if they re down going down into the shot. Til now 3 students changed it that way and are after being surprised very thxful and for sure also much more confident. Even the shotmakin increased, because they now see the shot better. Bringin this together with "placing" the head into the right position is a great thing (after worked out^^).

lg
Ingo

 

[lfigueroa]

That's my point. Not everyone's eyes give their brain a consistent view. You're lucky yours do.

I don't understand. How, if you use a PSR to produce a consistent set up -- which presumably put's your head and your eyes in a consistent position -- do your eyes not give you a consistent view?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I have to disagree....atleast in part. You do need to give yourself a consistent view, but wouldn't it benefit you to give yourself a consistent correct view? I don't think you can even really craft a straight stroke without a correct sight picture....well i guess you could, but you won't be able to make a ball in the ocean with it.

I, like Spider above, have a strongly dominant eye. Once upon a time, I tried to alter my setup to be more fundamentaly sound. Should have got an instructor to help me before I did that on my own. It did massive damage to my game...atleast for a time. I had a good fundamental setup, but I wasn't seeing the shots right because I was out of alignment with my dominant eye.

You gotta have both IMO, but the sight picture has to come first. Then craft a fundamentally sound setup based on that.

I guess maybe we differ on what the "correct view" is. To my optometrist the "correct view'" may mean one thing. To me as a pool player the "correct view" means whatever view helps my brain and body put the balls in the pockets and move the cue ball where I want. To me that is all that matters when it comes to the "correct view."

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I think you have implied, perhaps not intentionally, that dominant eye
alignment and "best stroke" setup are somehow in conflict.

In my experience, I have not encountered any conflict. YMMV.

Dale

You're right, Dale. i did not mean to imply they were mutually exclusive.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm with Lou on this one.

After reading all the posts about eye dominance I started wondering about my setup. So, the next time I was at the table I was standing over a long straight in shot. While down in my stance, I moved my head to the left a couple inches - the shot looked WAY OFF. Then I moved my head back past my cue to the right a couple of inches - the shot looked WAY OFF. I then put my head back where I normally place it (pretty much right over the cue) and the shot was now lined up properly in my field of vision.

That was pretty much it for me. I don't understand why this wouldn't be an intuitive part of the learning process for everybody. I would think the reason Earl or anybody for that matter would line up with the cue slightly off center would be because that's what it takes for the shot to "look right". So even if a person has a really dominant eye I wouldn't think you would have to spend a great deal of time figuring this out.

BB, I thing it is also possible that the guys who have the cue off to one side do it just because they have found that that alignment gives them a real straight, accurate, and powerful stroke. IOW, it has more to do with body mechanics than sighting. Whatever it looks like they have come to accommodate it in favor of being able to stab balls in from anywhere on the table.

Take the example of a side arm player. Now maybe he started shooting that way because he started out playing when smaller, or maybe it just feels natural. In either case, dominate eyeball probably had nothing to do with it -- it was all about the stroke.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

My dominate eye changes and its very annoying. When I get down and its different... I just don't feel right. I can still hit (I think) the center of the cueball but the cueball does not travel along the same path I thought it would. In fact at that point, a straight line is not straight anymore.

Of course, if its not a problem with you it may sound silly but it sucks for me.

For instance. I was playing someone last night some 1pocket. Getting 10-6, I've never ended up loser in this game against this guy. We were even after 4 games when my eye switched. Its not easy to tell whats going on but things just don't really feel right and thinning balls and what not, its hard to tell exactly if things are working the way I wanted. It took me to being stuck 3 games to realize I need to switch to my right eye. I'm 85% left eye dominate so I try to 'shoot through it' when possible. As soon as I switched eyes, I won 3 straight games and back to even.

Personally, I don't understand the switching eyeball phenomena, but I would guess this: when you start switch eyeballs you're probably switching something else (feet, shoulders, head height, motion) to make that happen. And maybe that is where your success lies.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

IMO, if a player has a 'dominate eye' issue and is shooting a straight in shot, he will miss if the posititioning of the head over the shaft hasn't been corrected. This also is in accordance with all the 'dominate eye' instructors.

But, IMO, a miss is also possible if the stroke isn't straight and on the right target line. Also in accordance with instructors.

Now, IMO, there are two possible reasons to miss shots that are straight in. Head positioning and Stroke consistancy.

How can you adjust your head for the 'dominate eye' issue if your stroke hasn't progressed enough to be consistant and good enough to be confident when you are shooting?

IMO a stroke is a lot more important then trying to fix the 'dominate eye' issue.

And, this IMO, is a BIG 'AND', if you practice enough to get to that desired level of stroke consistancy, you will be making more balls and getting better shape, because your brain and eye have 'learned' to overcome the 'dominate eye' issue, all by themself. IMO, that's how it is suppose to work with the Dominate eye. Otherwise when walking in a straight line you'll be veering to the left or right slightly all your life.

All good points. I do sometimes wonder if getting into a position to best utilize your dominate eye couldn't, in some cases, be counter productive and throwing your stroke off. I mean, it doesn't take much...

Lou Figueroa