Is high tech cue equipement fair to previous record holders

Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
I was reading the low deflection thread and it dawned on me is it fair to Williee Mosconi or any of the record holders that did not have these cheat sticks when it comes to the record books? Does the need exist to place and (*) next to those records acheived with predator cheat sticks or similar to denote the technological assistance they had in acheiving the records.

Kid
Dynomite
 
Kid Dynomite said:
I was reading the low deflection thread and it dawned on me is it fair to Williee Mosconi or any of the record holders that did not have these cheat sticks when it comes to the record books? Does the need exist to place and (*) next to those records acheived with predator cheat sticks or similar to denote the technological assistance they had in acheiving the records.

Kid
Dynomite
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One example (out of many in the sports world) of why the answer is that we don't need an asterisk after these new record holders names:

Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, etc. played and achieved unbelieveable batting statistics on ball fields that were as big as airports, against players with gloves no bigger than an overstuffed mitten, and some in an era where a base hit was awarded whereas today an error would have been charged.
No asterisks by their names! 'Nuff said.

Maniac
 
I don't think it is needed to. Record is destined to be broken, but the legend
is still the legend. there are different pocketsizes in every tables.
There are so many different so-called high tech drivers in golf, then every golf
record should be asterisked. But Bobby Jones is still the Bobby and Willi Mosconi is always the Mosconi. Finally George Ruth is Babe forever.
 
Whenever those questions come up i have to ask

1) Is there any shot that is possible with a low deflection shaft that isn't possible with a standard maple shaft?

The answer is no, so although it might have been more difficult to acount for deflection for the previous records i don't believe there is an unfair advantage. After the amount of practice plus the huge amount of natural talent those guys have i really don't believe they were at a disadvantage at all compared to those playing with pred shafts.
 
chunchin said:
I don't think it is needed to. Record is destined to be broken, but the legend
is still the legend. there are different pocketsizes in every tables.
There are so many different so-called high tech drivers in golf, then every golf
record should be asterisked. But Bobby Jones is still the Bobby and Willi Mosconi is always the Mosconi. Finally George Ruth is Babe forever.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think this post says it all. Sports evolve, we remember the old greats for what they did and admire the current greats for what they are doing. You can't make a very sensible comparison.

-Andrew
 
LOLO @ preditor cheat sticks. I have never been beaten by anyone just because they had a preditor, or any other low deflection shaft. I think the whole idea is rediculous.
 
supergreenman said:
LOLO @ preditor cheat sticks. I have never been beaten by anyone just because they had a preditor, or any other low deflection shaft. I think the whole idea is rediculous.
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I agree totally! If you honestly believe that If I hand you a predator ( or any low deflection shaft of your choice) and you give Mosconi, or any other top player a standard cue that you will win because of it, than I would have to agree with you. I think we both agree that would not be the case.

Another point, many players who have been playing well before these shafts became available, choose NOT to use them because it would be too much of an adjustment to make. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

I love these low deflection shafts. I have a predator and an OB1 and I think they are great, but I could trade sticks with my opponent, and I do not believe the outcome would change.

ALL STICKS HAVE DEFLECTION!! Even when changing from one conventional shaft to another the amount of deflection will be different and need to be adjusted for accordingly. Just like you will have to adjust for cloth speed, and rail type and cond, pocket sizes, etc. Thats what top players do!

I think these shafts are great and pretty much do what they claim, but will not make you perform like a top player if you haven't put in the work.
 
Mosconi wouldn't be able to make a shot with a Predator, cause he would be too used to accounting for the deflection! ;)
 
Neil said:
Just what rcords have fallen that you feel should have an asterisk?

Last time I looked, the "old" crew still held most records.
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Exactly, Neil. And the old crew will keep the records until a better player comes along,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not a better cue.
 
I agree with several of the above posters. If you buy into all this low deflection stuff, if you study these effects, and it is in your head that one of these modern developments will help you; great. Buy your predator 314, 314 2, or whatever and go do your best. But the day you get good enough to beat Willie, Wimpy, Eddie Taylor, Jimmie Moore, Joe Balsis, Steve Mizerak etc. even you yourself won't think that a low deflection shaft had diddle to do with it.
 
Hey, c'mon Mosconi never used a Predator and he *STILL* has the official record.

On top of that, Efren doesn't use a Predator and he's had plenty of opportunities to. Predator made him a custom one for free, and he turned it down after shooting with it.

Face it -- cue "technology" isn't super high-tech. It's still a piece of wood. As long as the wood is good and the construction is quality I think it's a pretty even playing field.

The biggest differences over the times will be the table conditions -- rails, cloth, pocket sizes, ball materials,etc.
 
I believe if 14.1 was still the game played instead of 9-ball, Mosconi's record would be long gone by now...or maybe not...526 is a lot of balls. Johnnyt
 
StevenPWaldon said:
Hey, c'mon Mosconi never used a Predator and he *STILL* has the official record.

On top of that, Efren doesn't use a Predator and he's had plenty of opportunities to. Predator made him a custom one for free, and he turned it down after shooting with it.

Face it -- cue "technology" isn't super high-tech. It's still a piece of wood. As long as the wood is good and the construction is quality I think it's a pretty even playing field.

The biggest differences over the times will be the table conditions -- rails, cloth, pocket sizes, ball materials,etc.
Click to expand...

I gotta agree here. The craziest shot I ever saw was some 3-4 years ago, a 9 ball tourney @ the now defunct Q street Billiards in Springfield, Oregon. Rodney Morris was in what seemed to be an impossible position. He went to the house cues rack. He went down the line, looked only at the tips. Finding what only could have been the tip shape he wanted, he grabbed the cue off the rack. He did not check the for straightness. Then he made one of the most amazing multi cushion banks I've ever seen. Those watching, myself included, erupted in applause. Morris is a top level player. I'm thinking he already had the table conditions figured out. Could Morris beat Mosconi? Probably not...any table, any cue, any game.
 
The game is evolving and the equipement. This game is a matter of inches!

The only analogy any one can make is that of two marks men. One shots inside in a controlled environment and the other is shooting outside in 20 to 30 mile and hour wind gust. One marks man is quessing how much to adjust his sites or aim and the other is not adjusting at all!!!! Under this scenario the inside shooter has a serious advantage. The same advantage a predator creates for its users!!!! With this said no one has indicated that the advantage does not exist!!!!!! The other way of thinking about it is if you were to have to Masse' or curve the ball before contacting the object ball everytime. That is exactly what deflection is "the masse' effect of spin prior to contact".

You all seem to like Baseball analogies and what if some one corked the baseball bat??? Predator drills out the ferrulle/shaft! So, how is that fair??? It is much harder to run 150 balls with deflection to account for then with out!!!!

Kid
Dynomite
 
Kid, read a few posts in the thread. If you want to ignore what everyone says, why bother starting the post? Seems as if you have answered your own question. Many do not think that for top-level players it is an advantage over learning to play with a traditional shaft and learning to adjust for deflection/squirt.

Look at most of the top male pros. Here's a small sample of pros that do NOT use Predator shafts--and they don't seem to be suffering any disadvantages because of it:

[in no particular order]
1. Efren Reyes
2. Francisco Bustamante
3. Earl Strickland
4. Rodney Morris
5. Johnny Archer
6. John Schmidt (I believe)
7. Mika Immonen
8. Oliver Ortmann
9. Jose Parica
10. Allison Fisher

150 balls may be difficult to run, but guys like Hohmann seem to run them regardless of what shaft they're using. He ran 174-and-out against Schmidt last year in the WC 14.1, and without the aid of a Predator. Meanwhile, Charlie Williams and his Predator endorsement never ran over 100 in the entire tournament.

Going back to a previous point of mine, guys like Mizerak, Sigel, Crane, Balsis, and of course Mosconi never seemed to have a problem with their equipment. Do you think Mosconi would have beaten his own record of 526 balls if he had a magic 314 shaft?


Kid Dynomite said:
The game is evolving and the equipement. This game is a matter of inches!

The only analogy any one can make is that of two marks men. One shots inside in a controlled environment and the other is shooting outside in 20 to 30 mile and hour wind gust. One marks man is quessing how much to adjust his sites or aim and the other is not adjusting at all!!!! Under this scenario the inside shooter has a serious advantage. The same advantage a predator creates for its users!!!! With this said no one has indicated that the advantage does not exist!!!!!! The other way of thinking about it is if you were to have to Masse' or curve the ball before contacting the object ball everytime. That is exactly what deflection is "the masse' effect of spin prior to contact".

You all seem to like Baseball analogies and what if some one corked the baseball bat??? Predator drills out the ferrulle/shaft! So, how is that fair??? It is much harder to run 150 balls with deflection to account for then with out!!!!

Kid
Dynomite
Click to expand...
 
I think it is worth pointing out that the greatest players of our time choose to play with what they are most comfortable with. If a particular shaft or cue can help them to "cheat" to win more matches, common sense tells us that they will for sure use it--especially since they can get them for free.

So far, other than Alex, I do not know of another World Champion winning the World Championship playing with a Predator shaft. 5 Times Challenge of Champion winner Chao won all his title with a one piece original shaft. The best female player, Allison, plays with a one piece shaft; the best man player, Reyes, plays also with a one piece shaft.

I am sure there are lots of good players using the 314 shaft, but I do not see how it can be called a 'cheat" stick as if it processes magical power to help someone to win more games--if it could, then all the best players will be switching to it, in order to make more balls and win more games.
 
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