Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

[KRJ]

Hmmm

So put up the 10k and prove Ron wrong..so far I see a lot of people who disagree with diagrams but nobody is willing to grab what seems to be a free 10k in their minds. Remember Ron V. is the guy who gave HIS systems to Mika..Niels..Robles..Hopkins..Thorston..Hofstatter and Lee at THEIR request..he wasn't offering..just to name a few (theres many more) so to simply imply he's some above average "coach"..isn't scratching the surface. He's a legend in the Pro's circle so I would pause before I dismiss him with "he's just mad". Mike Sigel says the exact same thing as Ron on this issue..EXACT. I think Sigel might now a little bit more about "throw" than most of us. But maybe you know better then Sigel and Vitello. You might be an unknown pool legend yourself, school us and put up the 10k and lets find out.

Well, it means nothing if Ron and Sigel dispute this because I could bring in a few well known master instructors with just as much street cred as Ron as well as a handful of HOF players as well. What matters is what is Ron exactly referring too, and if he says he is talking about simple throw shot, and then it has to be done on the table...and then yes, I'll put up $10K. And I'm not gonna share this with any "backers".......

 

[Lexicologist71]

I think I trust Robert Byrne more than I do you.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the spin and the friction can actually carry the OB in the direction of the spin tangentially to the initial exit angle...
...when the angle is wider the friction can carry the OB along the tangent prior to contact exit, changing the exit angle without sidespin being necessary.

In case you're interested, maximum throw (and transferred spin, since they're caused by the same thing) is attained by slow speed, a stun hit and:

1. 1/2 maximum sidespin (for sidespin only with no cut angle)
2. a half ball hit (for cut shots with no sidespin)

So the optimal (for maximum throw effect) amount of inside sidespin decreases from 1/2 maximum to none as the cut angle increases from straight to half ball, and then changes to outside sidespin that increases as cuts get thinner than half ball.

It might seem counterintuitive that a little outside spin increases throw for thinner cuts.

pj <- repeating Dr. Dave's info
chgo

 

[Palmerfan]

1. Again, Ron hasn't admitted saying there's no such thing as throw. He said there's no such thing as OB curve. I agree with that.

If you agree then why post nonsense about how "mad" Ron is

2. Sigel has been proven wrong for years.

Where has Sigel been proven wrong, where and when, you won't mind that I don't take your word for it

Maybe. Better than you too, it seems.

So you say..I've never heard of you but sure as hell heard of Sigel..I think Sigel won over 100 Tournaments..how many did you take down?

I'm kind of a big deal on AzB...

How nice for you..Vitello and Sigel are bigger deals. TRUST ME.

You don't seem very open to "schooling" from non-legends.

I'm open to anyone who wants to put up the 10k without typing their life stories along with excuses.

Again, Ron hasn't yet said anything I disagree with. I disagree with what the OP says Ron said. If Ron is betting an OB can't be thrown, I can raise much more than 10K for that bet. Are you going to back Ron?

Take the 10k bet before you raise..don't worry about who I back. Ron already put his bet up for you to take..and all we get are stories. If you want action from me..I'm always game. But grab the bet first.

 

[jay helfert]

Ron's wrong. It's simple to prove (see jsp's post).


You're not taking into account the principle of "equal and opposite reactions". When the CB throws the OB sideways it also throws itself in the opposite direction, so it's expected that the CB will drift to the side.

When the OB goes straight and the CB stops dead, it's because you actually hit the OB on a slight cut angle and the throw straightened it out. The CB, instead of caroming off the OB because of the cut angle, was thrown just enough in the opposite direction to stop it dead. This is also predicted, if the cut angle and the throw exactly cancel each other out. In other words, it's an alternative way to hit a stop shot.

pj
chgo

I'm with Pat here. You absolutely CAN throw the object ball, even without using any 'spin' or english on the cue ball. Every Bank Pool player understands this principle. For instance when you have to 'cross' the object ball on a cross side bank, the impact of the cue ball as it comes across the face of the object ball is enough to make it bank a little higher off the side rail. And we call this effect "throwing the ball." Same effect applies when crossing a ball on a long rail bank. If you do not understand this principle, you will never be a winning Bank Pool player.

I'm sure this effect can be described in physical terms, when an object with mass impacts another object with similar mass, the impact will affect the direction of travel of the second object. In this case the objects are pool balls. I suspect Bob Jewett could come up with the equation for this, factoring in the speed of the impact and the angle of contact. Again all good bankers know to take this "throw" effect into account when cross banking balls.

 

[jay helfert]

ok, i'll post 10k ,but I want to see someone make an OB go around another OB and then pocket the ball..

I want all those smart braniacs to put up there own money.

You know the guys with the PHD'S. And if you really want to do this you all have to come to NYC..
let me know when you get your corp. together to raise the money,I'll use my own...

RONV.

Big difference between "throwing" an object ball and making it curve or swerve. Somehow the "teacher" delivered the wrong message to his student here. Just one more question, is a "braniac" someone who likes to eat bran? :wink:

 

[daphish1]

To the OP, why do dirty balls play different then freshly polished balls, if there isn't throw?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Ron hasn't admitted saying there's no such thing as throw. He said there's no such thing as OB curve. I agree with that.

Palmerfan:
If you agree then why post nonsense about how "mad" Ron is

He ranted about "braniacs" and wanted to bet $10K. That's either mad or nuts.

Me:
Sigel has been proven wrong for years.

Palmerfan:
Where has Sigel been proven wrong, where and when, you won't mind that I don't take your word for it

You can start right here in this thread, but the same proofs have been posted for more than a decade that I know of. Take whoever's word you want - it's your bran.

Palmerfan:
...I've never heard of you but sure as hell heard of Sigel..I think Sigel won over 100 Tournaments..how many did you take down?

I never heard of you either. Guess neither one of us is worth listening to...

Me:
I'm kind of a big deal on AzB...

Palmerfan:
How nice for you..Vitello and Sigel are bigger deals. TRUST ME.

That was a joke.

Me:
You don't seem very open to "schooling" from non-legends.

Palmerfan:
I'm open to anyone who wants to put up the 10k without typing their life stories along with excuses.

That's what I said I'd do, but so far there's nothing for Ron and I to bet about.

Palmerfan:
If you want action from me..I'm always game.

You got it. My $10K says throw exists. Are we on?

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

and the more spin and the softer you hit the ball the more it will throw. You can put spin on the CB yet hit it so hard that it won't throw much or at all. Johnnyt

Also, the spin thats transferred to the object ball along the 3 and 9 o'clock horizontal tangent line creates the most ''gearing'' effect. Toss in a set of real dirty object balls and all transfer factors increase. Increase forward speed of whitey and the gearing/tansfer factors decrease.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Johnnyt:
and the more spin and the softer you hit the ball the more it will throw.

Softer, yes. More spin, not so much - 1/2 maximum spin is optimum.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Also, the spin thats transferred to the object ball along the 3 and 9 o'clock horizontal tangent line creates the most ''gearing'' effect.

Yes. Forward or reverse rotation (forward roll or draw) dramatically reduces the amount of transferred spin (there's only so much friction to go around).

Increase forward speed of whitey and the gearing/tansfer factors decrease.

Yes, but you might have to increase speed in order for the transferred spin to last all the way to the rail. It's a tradeoff.

pj
chgo

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I guess that depends on your definition of "top". If that means "popular in certain crowds", then you apparently don't need to know much of anything about physics, geometry or logic.

pj
chgo

Classic. And 100% true. I love this post!

KMRUNOUT

 

[RonV]

he ranted about "braniacs" and wanted to bet $10k. That's either mad or nuts.


You can start right here in this thread, but the same proofs have been posted for more than a decade that i know of. Take whoever's word you want - it's your bran.


I never heard of you either. Guess neither one of us is worth listening to...


That was a joke.
Yes patrick your on for 10k..



That's what i said i'd do, but so far there's nothing for ron and i to bet about.


You got it. My $10k says throw exists. Are we on?

Pj
chgo

and for all you braniacs who don't get the joke, i guess you must be a brainiac...

Yes i'll take the bet pj..
Time and date in nyc

 

[RonV]

and for all you braniacs who don't get the joke, i guess you must be a brainiac...

Yes i'll take the bet pj..
Time and date in nyc

throw exist but not the kind your talking about pj

 

[Monkey-Boy]

In spiderwebbcom's video on YouTube, he talks about one of RonV's banking systems (as well Hal and Stan)...which uses throw to bank the balls. Or is this something different?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i'll take the bet pj

Let's be sure we understand each other. I'm betting an object ball can be thrown from its "line of centers" path in a straight line, not made to curve. Throw doesn't mean curve.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

throw exist but not the kind your talking about pj

What kind do you think I'm talking about? I only know one definition for "throw".

pj
chgo

 

[RonV]

I don't care what you think i think lets just do it.

10kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't care what you think i think lets just do it.

10kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

Get some advice from a friend, Ron.

pj
chgo

 

[mohrt]

I certainly didn't intend for this to turn into a pissing match. I was curious about throwing an object ball and what Ron meant by it. You know this will end in some technicality, same as the usual put-up-or-shut-up thread. I'd rather see this subject dropped if it just ends in arguments.

Why do we play this silly game? Just for an opportunity to make a buck? Is it just not worth playing/discussing if something isn't always on the line?

[edit] I understand pool and gambling go hand in hand. It would be great to keep it on friendly sportsman-like terms, not argumentative.