Is It Really The Pros That Are To Blame?

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
A lot of us on here (myself included) have said many times that the big reason pool has and is going nowhere is because the pro-players can't get together and help themselves.

I don't know of any sport or game that has made it in mainstream, like poker, boxing, or NASCAR that hasn't had a money-man or group of money-men to make it go big time on TV, where players make good money, are household names. I don't know the history behind every sport/game that made it, but I really can't think of any. Anyone know of any that it was just the players that got together and made it happen? Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
A lot of us on here (myself included) have said many times that the big reason pool has and is going nowhere is because the pro-players can't get together and help themselves.

I don't know of any sport or game that has made it in mainstream, like poker, boxing, or NASCAR that hasn't had a money-man or group of money-men to make it go big time on TV, where players make good money, are household names. I don't know the history behind every sport/game that made it, but I really can't think of any. Anyone know of any that it was just the players that got together and made it happen? Johnnyt

Skateboarding, BMX, MMA, those are sports in their infancy that we've seen do this in recent years.
 
thebigdog said:
Skateboarding, BMX, MMA, those are sports in their infancy that we've seen do this in recent years.

I don't know about the others, but didn't MMA start growing because some people with considerable money bought the UFC?
 
Cameron Smith said:
I don't know about the others, but didn't MMA start growing because some people with considerable money bought the UFC?


That helped in the US. What really made it explode here was actually the final fight on the ultimate fighter season 1. Somehow spike tv scored huge with that one. The simple fact is that even the UFC(which is synonymous with mma in the US) had a large following, even if it was just VHS tapes at your local video store(and yes, they pretty much all had 'em, even 10 years ago). Although pool has a few hardcore fans, I doubt it would EVER support something like any major sports. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how.
 
Johnnyt said:
A lot of us on here (myself included) have said many times that the big reason pool has and is going nowhere is because the pro-players can't get together and help themselves.

I don't know of any sport or game that has made it in mainstream, like poker, boxing, or NASCAR that hasn't had a money-man or group of money-men to make it go big time on TV, where players make good money, are household names. I don't know the history behind every sport/game that made it, but I really can't think of any. Anyone know of any that it was just the players that got together and made it happen? Johnnyt

Pool isn't a great spectator sport. Everyone likes to point fingers and say, "that's why pool is where it is", but even if those negative things didn't exist, pool still wouldn't be a great spectator sport. I am a pool player and I never watch pool on TV. Granted, it's more because of the circus-like feel of the televised matches, which recreational players aren't likely to pick up on (or even care about) but, again, regardless of how it's packaged, it isn't overly exciting to watch.

The truth is, if some corporate sponsor were looking to stick their money into a sport for advertisement purposes, they'd probably be looking to put it somewhere that would get their name out to a much larger audience than pool can provide. That's the reality that all of us who try to promote this game have to deal with. Hopefully it won't be like that some day but, for now, that's the way it is.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Pool isn't a great spectator sport. Everyone likes to point fingers and say, "that's why pool is where it is", but even if those negative things didn't exist, pool still wouldn't be a great spectator sport. I am a pool player and I never watch pool on TV. Granted, it's more because of the circus-like feel of the televised matches, which recreational players aren't likely to pick up on (or even care about) but, again, regardless of how it's packaged, it isn't overly exciting to watch.

The truth is, if some corporate sponsor were looking to stick their money into a sport for advertisement purposes, they'd probably be looking to put it somewhere that would get their name out to a much larger audience than pool can provide. That's the reality that all of us who try to promote this game have to deal with. Hopefully it won't be like that some day but, for now, that's the way it is.

Golf?
Spelling Bee?
Curling?
Shooting?
Archery?

These are all boring things which get put on TV. Sorry - all you championship golfers, spellers, curlers, shootists, and archers. I know your sport takes a lot of skills - just boring for me to watch.

I agree with you on a lot of levels. However pool is a good draw according to things that the networks have said. The Fat/Mosconi matches were some of the highest rated shows ever on TV. Granted that was 30 years ago when there were only 3 channels anyway.

But in Asia pool is in fact a sport which is watched by millions each time it's on. It's also broadcast live.

In the USA there was a time when the best were treated to packed houses with thousands vying for a seat.

But all that aside, the pros do need to stand up for themselves or it will be sure that they will continue to get the short end of the stick no matter what the sport has to offer.

I am like Wannamaker - I believe that a strong pro association followed by a consistent pro tour would spur more sales of billiard equipment. I think that being on tv consistently would inspire more folks to take up the game.

I also believe that the finals of the BCA, VNEA, and APA nationals should be televised. I think if more ordinary people saw other "ordinary" people playing in international events then it would inspire them to join a league.
 
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The UFC was a hit from the first time anybody saw Gracie choking out guys 80lbs bigger than himself, and elbows to the face that started the blood pouring. The only thing that held it up was, there was only one state that would let the show go on..

Billiards has many problems to deal with. No you cant pin all of them on the pros. Could the pros do some things to make their world better, sure they could, but thats not where their focus is. Ive said befor there are things that need to be done, that one might not see the rewards from in their pool lifetime. What pro is going to do that..

One big thing about billiards (maybe somone has said it befor maybe not). Where is the (BIG) money suppose to come from. Most other games have sponsorships from retailers, those retailers stay in bis. out of the need for their product, for a wide range of reasons. In billiards once you buy a good cue, case, table, your done spending for the most part. Were not going to have a big payday on chalk sales.
I said to the old lady one time, "Cuetech sponsors all these tourneys, who the hell plays with a Cuetech". We play league, I play here and there around town, the only person I know that plays with a Cuetech is the 3 on our team that I sold the Cuetech the Apa gave me in Vegas last year.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Pool isn't a great spectator sport.
Then explain why you can watch Poker every single day on several channels ?

It's not about the sport, its the way its presented.

I would rather stick my hand in a wood chipper than sit and watch a bunch of loudmouth self important twenty-somethings try to out flop one another but if it is shot, commentated and edited in the right way the finished product can be entertaining.

They sell Poker the same way most cool sh!t is sold. It is edgy and a little on the dark side but still safe and fun enough that it doesn't scare off the fish. They push the characters and pool gives poker the 5 out in that department. I could go on forever. Didn't we do this thread for like the 300th time last week?


<-----always falls into the "Whats wrong with pool" trap.
 
Mowem down said:
The UFC was a hit from the first time anybody saw Gracie choking out guys 80lbs bigger than himself, and elbows to the face that started the blood pouring. The only thing that held it up was, there was only one state that would let the show go on..

Billiards has many problems to deal with. No you cant pin all of them on the pros. Could the pros do some things to make their world better, sure they could, but thats not where their focus is. Ive said befor there are things that need to be done, that one might not see the rewards from in their pool lifetime. What pro is going to do that..

One big thing about billiards (maybe somone has said it befor maybe not). Where is the (BIG) money suppose to come from. Most other games have sponsorships from retailers, those retailers stay in bis. out of the need for their product, for a wide range of reasons. In billiards once you buy a good cue, case, table, your done spending for the most part. Were not going to have a big payday on chalk sales.
I said to the old lady one time, "Cuetech sponsors all these tourneys, who the hell plays with a Cuetech". We play league, I play here and there around town, the only person I know that plays with a Cuetech is the 3 on our team that I sold the Cuetech the Apa gave me in Vegas last year.

Who did you sell the Cuetec to? We sell A LOT of Cuetecs and the reason is because Cuetec is on TV all the time as Allison Fisher is on TV playing with hers all the time and also because Cuetec sponsors half the tournaments that are on TV.

Maybe the people who are buying and playing with Cuetecs aren't even league players (yet).

We sell a LOT of Cuetecs to people who call in (or email) and say that they are looking for a cue for a gift for someone else and they want that brand because they saw it on TV.

And who plays with Cuetec?

Mark Tad. Want to play him? Allison - Want to play her?

The fact is that Cuetec has seen their investment into sponsorship pay off - at least to the point that they have kept it up for 15 years.

The rest of the billiard industry either doesn't have the budget or the balls to do that sort of advertising.

Personally, if I were a millionaire (talking hundreds of millions, cuz a mil ain't worth what it used to be) then I simply buy pool. That's right I would put up a pro-tour and get all the pros under contract and then once I had that I would shape it how I wanted it. This sport is ripe for someone to come in and take it over from top to bottom.

Neither the BCA nor the Pros themselves are doing anything to protect or promote the game so anyone with the right amount of money can own themselves a whole sport and it would take a lot less than buying any other sports.

I wouldn't do it like our old friend KT and try to put a spit shine on it and flip it - no I'd be in it for the long haul and first try to build something solid and working that I could then interests in. I'd do my own production or bring AccuStats in as a partner and let them do all the production.

I would "invite" the BCA. WPA, APA, BCA, VNEA, and the rest of the alphabet to play along by giving up a tiny percentage of their membership dues in order to set up an amateur-to-the-pros pathway that is consistent. If they didn't want to play along which I expect that they wouldn't then I would simply set up my own leagues and fund it myself for a few years until I had all the players.

My marketing would at first consist of recruiting paid "evangelists" to canvas every place in the United States with a pool table and get them to sign up with Church of the Good Pool Hustler.

I'd hire Mark Griffin to run it all and Robin Adair and Randy Goetlicher :-) to run the tournaments.

Then again, as momma used to say, "if wishes were horses then beggars would ride."
 
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JCIN said:
Then explain why you can watch Poker every single day on several channels ?

It's not about the sport, its the way its presented.

I would rather stick my hand in a wood chipper than sit and watch a bunch of loudmouth self important twenty-somethings try to out flop one another but if it is shot, commentated and edited in the right way the finished product can be entertaining.

They sell Poker the same way most cool sh!t is sold. It is edgy and a little on the dark side but still safe and fun enough that it doesn't scare off the fish. They push the characters and pool gives poker the 5 out in that department. I could go on forever. Didn't we do this thread for like the 300th time last week?


<-----always falls into the "Whats wrong with pool" trap.

Yeah, and when pool is "fixed" people will still do the "what's wrong with pool" only then they will be complaining that pool was great when you could go to Derby City and watch the greatest players matching up for free. They will ***** that Johnny Archer is no longer "a regular guy".
 
JCIN said:
Then explain why you can watch Poker every single day on several channels ?

It's not about the sport, its the way its presented.

I would rather stick my hand in a wood chipper than sit and watch a bunch of loudmouth self important twenty-somethings try to out flop one another but if it is shot, commentated and edited in the right way the finished product can be entertaining.

They sell Poker the same way most cool sh!t is sold. It is edgy and a little on the dark side but still safe and fun enough that it doesn't scare off the fish. They push the characters and pool gives poker the 5 out in that department. I could go on forever. Didn't we do this thread for like the 300th time last week?


<-----always falls into the "Whats wrong with pool" trap.

Though I have a lot to say, we have all been over this a million times as JCIN mention.

JCIN,

You guys at TAR have be best new idea going! Everything starts small and builds! Keep up the good work!
 
Johnnyt said:
A lot of us on here (myself included) have said many times that the big reason pool has and is going nowhere is because the pro-players can't get together and help themselves.

I don't know of any sport or game that has made it in mainstream, like poker, boxing, or NASCAR that hasn't had a money-man or group of money-men to make it go big time on TV, where players make good money, are household names. I don't know the history behind every sport/game that made it, but I really can't think of any. Anyone know of any that it was just the players that got together and made it happen? Johnnyt

Here is my Honest Opinion..

in EVERY other sport.. It PAYS to be famous...

Pool is the only sport where it PAYS MORE to be unknown..

I am going to get totally flamed for this .. but the gambling culture associated with pool is the reason why pool is not larger and more successful.
 
JCIN said:
Then explain why you can watch Poker every single day on several channels ?

It's not about the sport, its the way its presented.

I have no explanation as to why you can watch poker every single day on TV. You can also watch pool quite often on TV, but it's still where it is.

Maybe you're right and the right presentation just hasn't made it to the masses yet.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I don't know about the others, but didn't MMA start growing because some people with considerable money bought the UFC?
It was almost bankrupt and Dana White purchased it with the help of a friend/investor...It has exploded because of Dana's marketing genius techniques.:)
 
Jimmy M. said:
Pool isn't a great spectator sport. Everyone likes to point fingers and say, "that's why pool is where it is", but even if those negative things didn't exist, pool still wouldn't be a great spectator sport. I am a pool player and I never watch pool on TV. Granted, it's more because of the circus-like feel of the televised matches, which recreational players aren't likely to pick up on (or even care about) but, again, regardless of how it's packaged, it isn't overly exciting to watch.

The truth is, if some corporate sponsor were looking to stick their money into a sport for advertisement purposes, they'd probably be looking to put it somewhere that would get their name out to a much larger audience than pool can provide. That's the reality that all of us who try to promote this game have to deal with. Hopefully it won't be like that some day but, for now, that's the way it is.


I think that the best example to prove that the thinking you and many others have is wrong is golf. Golf is DEAD ON BORING on TV and imo watching it there as well.

Yet there are many who are watching it and it has a tremendous value for all the sponsor as far as I can tell.

As for the second paragraph you wrote, yet again, golf is a good example. Golf has a huge audience but in a few years old InsidePool Magazine I have read that there were already more 40 million pool players in the USA alone. Isn't that a big enough audience alone? And I have no clue how many golf players could there be but I doubt that there are 40 million - correct me if I am mistaken here.

The sponsors I remember from golf would be Nike, Adidas, car brands that were sponsoring tours, etc. A nike, adidas or lacoste t-shirt has absolutely nothing to do with how good you're playing golf, it won't help you any. Yet they are still paying big money for the good players to wear them. The point I am trying to make is that the same would go for pool and it would be nice seeing these mega brands sponsoring pool.

In my opinion the reason why so many people are watching golf while not playing is the money involved. Everything - and I mean everything - gets incredibly interesting when big money is involved. Take a look at tennis, golf, poker, etc.etc.

This is my opinion, I am not trying to offend you, but trying to make some points with all respect towards you and your opinion.
 
softshot said:
Here is my Honest Opinion..

in EVERY other sport.. It PAYS to be famous...

Pool is the only sport where it PAYS MORE to be unknown..

I am going to get totally flamed for this .. but the gambling culture associated with pool is the reason why pool is not larger and more successful.

And the "gambling culture" in poker holds poker back?

What are the biggest non-violent movies? Movies like The Color of Money, Rounders, Oceans11 through 27, and plenty of others that celebrate the con, the action, the gambling..................

Maybe it's the fact that pool's gambling culture is not associated with pool ENOUGH that is the problem. The road player may be America's last gunslinger.
 
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I blame Don Mackey for ruining the ESPN deal first.
It went downhill from there.
The year after ESPN showed a live match ( Hopkins vs Breedlove iirc ), he refused ESPN's tv contract.
 
JB Cases said:
And the "gambling culture" in poker holds poker back?

What are the biggest non-violent movies? Movies like The Color of Money, Rounders, Oceans11 through 27, and plenty of others that celebrate the con, the action, the gambling..................

Maybe it's the fact that pool's gambling culture is not associated with pool ENOUGH that is the problem. The road player may be America's last gunslinger.


you misunderstand..

Gambling isn't the reason pool is not as popular.....

Gambling MONEY is why pool players DON'T WANT.. to be famous


Johnny Archer "could" if he desired walk into an average American barroom and whip the best player in the place for cash and score several hundred dollars and has a 50/50 chance that NOONE will know he is a world champion..

can Barry Bonds pinch hit on your spring "Beer Leauge" softball team and win a little cash from the other team???? NOT A CHANCE!!!

Pool Players are not famous because Pool Players don't want to be famous...
 
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