Is It Really The Pros That Are To Blame?
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
Johnnyt said:
is it the pro's fault??
yes and no.
there is no good governing body-not their fault
if there was on would they get on board? probably not. that is their fault.
So whats the solution?? i dunno but i'm working on it. soon i will be in a better spot to make somethig happen , and I will. I have a good reputation among most pros who know me.
cuejoey said:It was almost bankrupt and Dana White purchased it with the help of a friend/investor...It has exploded because of Dana's marketing genius techniques.
i know Dana, he is a hard worker with GREAT backers and a marketable product. they picked the right guy to run it(Dana).
softshot said:
You think pool players don't want to be famous and have all the upsides that come with fame (and fortune)?
I am going to guess that you aren't close to any pro players who were part of the IPT.
The reason I say that is because all of them I know were hyped up and excited that pro pool was going to finally make it to the big time. Kelly Fisher told me that for the first time in her career at the initial player's meeting in Orlando she felt like a real professional player.
Jam wrote a lot about how the players really wanted the IPT to work and how excited they were about feeling like and being treated like celebrities.
This is NOT intended to be a rehash of what the IPT did or didn't do right.
It's only to show that the professionals do want the fame and glory and money that is commensurate with the amount of time they have dedicated to becoming the best in the world.
They don't want to have their living dictated by having to hustle and hope to remain unknown. Maybe a few feel that way but I can pretty much guarantee you that 99% of the world's best players would sign up tomorrow if I made the same promise as the IPT and put the money on the light.
Fatboy said:
Eric I love ya' brother but we disagree slightly on this one.
"there is no good governing body-not their fault" Yes, this is their fault. Believe me if there was some big action happening or a big tournament these guys could all find ways to communicate. But they can't get together in a room and figure out how to govern themselves?
"If there was would they get on board - probably not" Well here I have to say that they have been burned so many times it's probably a lot to ask but if it were their own organization and they showed solidarity then they should.
Pool is unique. There is no other game that I know of like it.
Compareing it to golf, or any other sport is bogus.
The best comparison, IMO, would be chess, with a physcal element thrown in.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but doing away with the winners break format in these short race, nine ball tournaments, would be a good start.
And then banning nine ball from the pro ranks wouldn't hurt either.
Nine ball is like watching Tiger Woods start off from the womens tee.
Justin Nuder
Compareing it to golf, or any other sport is bogus.
The best comparison, IMO, would be chess, with a physcal element thrown in.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but doing away with the winners break format in these short race, nine ball tournaments, would be a good start.
And then banning nine ball from the pro ranks wouldn't hurt either.
Nine ball is like watching Tiger Woods start off from the womens tee.
Justin Nuder
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JB Cases said:
that's exactly what I think..
there was a time when you could line up...
Billie Jean King, Steve Mizerak, Mean Joe Greene, Muhamed Ali, and Pete Rose..
and put them in front of 50 random Americans and ALL of them would know every name..
now Put Anna Kornikova, Buddy Hall, Tom Brady, Chuck Liddel, and Manny Ramirez..
on the same stage and the only one people would be wondering about would be Buddy Hall.. one of the greatest our sport has ever produced...
pool players WANT to be unknown..
they to a man would rather have the back room action over the front room cameras asking "why did you miss ???"
pro's are not famous because they don't want it bad enough.. if they did they would get there "poop in a group" and put out a big time product..
but they won't... because that requires effort... they will sit and wait till someone does all the work then blows enough smoke up their ass.. to get them to show up to an event...
it's as simple as that...
JB Cases said:
This is why I think they should have a Hustlers Tournament. Have a tournament where players "bet" how much they'll be playing for p/rack. Heck if ya play a safety even bet on making a good hit. Start em all out with $10,000 each and the bets will get higher and higher as it progresses. I swear this is made for television.
gunzby said:
If this gets into making ever, I'll be there to help if I can, that's for sure. It would be a HUGE BANG and I think this would work very well. Why don't you create a new thread to this idea?
Ps.: there have been something similar, it was a Ring game 10-ball. You can find it on youtube I believe by trying with some search. The name of the video was very similar to what I wrote so you should be able to find it. It was very exciting to watch!!!
poohkiller said:
I posted this idea a while ago. I figured that each player would start with $10k. They come to the table and there would be a table there for the cash. They could woof back and forth on the bet and then post up before the lag. In the case of a good safety they could post up again on a good hit or even making the ball. I seriously think it's made for tv
*edit* On a side note woofing would be encouraged at any time during the match except when the player is down on the shot. Then the opponent needs to shut the heck up
Show the gambling! Show the cash being exchanged! Show the woofing! Have the announcers explain shots by showing where to hit the cue ball to get it to spin a certain way! Talk it up! Have an edge to the voice so that it will create excitement. Build the suspense! Go back and forth from face to face and talk about how important it is to get the cb to a certain area and how it's done. Make a show out of it like poker has done. Mike what's his name and Vince Van Patten made poker go (imo) turn Billy and Grady loose and let the language loose (well... loosen it up anyway). Show the backers and the wad of cash... especially the cash.. big freakin wads of cash... tons of cash being passed to the winner of each game/set. Show piles of cash on the light. It doesn't even have to be real cash. Make a SHOW.
Don't make it a gentlemans game. Make it rough and tough and show the cash! Dress them in jeans and T shirts and backwards hats and use to bleeped out language and some nose to nose woofing. Screw the nice stuff. Nobody buys "nice".. they buy exciting stuff. They buy edge-gy... they buy scarey. Put some tush-hogs around the place. Show a buldge under the coat that might be a piece and talk about whether so and so is carrying. Talk about the gambling and how much is down on this shot. Bet on every shot!! Tons of cash being exchanged on tough shots. Exaggerate the nasty, the rough, the tough, the danger. Do a reality show about a hustler moving across the country making and losing the CASH! Exaggerate the danger!! Do a SHOW for pete's sake. Do anything but STOP trying to make pool seem legitimate and nice. It AIN'T either so capitolize on the illegitimate and exaggerate the nasty. That will get people to where they want to learn how to make the shots they see being made and make people want to make a score! Talk like Fatty did about the CASH. Talk about how so and so is only 20 years old and learned to be a great player by doing this and that and show how he makes shots and show him with the CASH and people will want to get a cue like his and a case like Fast Eddies, and they'll spend their CASH and they'll flock to the ph so they can learn how to make the SCORE. Have sexy girls all over the place. Some like Eva.. beautiful and classy, some not so classy. Have them hanging on the pros in the crowd. Produce a freakin show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it up!! PRODUCE it.
CREATE heros and CREATE villans. Show a Landon being sharked by a mean ole EARL. Do a little story about their background and make them into personalities that people will know. All of you knew instantly who I meant when I said Landon and Earl.... make the world know!! Do it so people talk around the proverbial water cooler at work about how mean that mean ole Earl was to that nice kid. Then have Earl lose to the sweet kid. Or not! Have Earl shark and then beat the kid out of the CASH. Build it up. Talk about Keith at 15 with the CASH in his pocket asking a teacher to hold it for him. Have Keith and Buddy and Grady doing commercials about learning how to play and taking lessons. Show the kids learning and progressing.
Don't make it a gentlemans game. Make it rough and tough and show the cash! Dress them in jeans and T shirts and backwards hats and use to bleeped out language and some nose to nose woofing. Screw the nice stuff. Nobody buys "nice".. they buy exciting stuff. They buy edge-gy... they buy scarey. Put some tush-hogs around the place. Show a buldge under the coat that might be a piece and talk about whether so and so is carrying. Talk about the gambling and how much is down on this shot. Bet on every shot!! Tons of cash being exchanged on tough shots. Exaggerate the nasty, the rough, the tough, the danger. Do a reality show about a hustler moving across the country making and losing the CASH! Exaggerate the danger!! Do a SHOW for pete's sake. Do anything but STOP trying to make pool seem legitimate and nice. It AIN'T either so capitolize on the illegitimate and exaggerate the nasty. That will get people to where they want to learn how to make the shots they see being made and make people want to make a score! Talk like Fatty did about the CASH. Talk about how so and so is only 20 years old and learned to be a great player by doing this and that and show how he makes shots and show him with the CASH and people will want to get a cue like his and a case like Fast Eddies, and they'll spend their CASH and they'll flock to the ph so they can learn how to make the SCORE. Have sexy girls all over the place. Some like Eva.. beautiful and classy, some not so classy. Have them hanging on the pros in the crowd. Produce a freakin show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it up!! PRODUCE it.
CREATE heros and CREATE villans. Show a Landon being sharked by a mean ole EARL. Do a little story about their background and make them into personalities that people will know. All of you knew instantly who I meant when I said Landon and Earl.... make the world know!! Do it so people talk around the proverbial water cooler at work about how mean that mean ole Earl was to that nice kid. Then have Earl lose to the sweet kid. Or not! Have Earl shark and then beat the kid out of the CASH. Build it up. Talk about Keith at 15 with the CASH in his pocket asking a teacher to hold it for him. Have Keith and Buddy and Grady doing commercials about learning how to play and taking lessons. Show the kids learning and progressing.
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softshot said:
And you think this is Buddy Hall's fault? You think that if the Budweiser people would have come to Buddy and said hey be in our national ad then he would have refused?
Well, you can have your opinion on this but I can tell you it doesn't fit with what 100% of the professional pool players I know think.
first off i believe more amateur players or (league players) would rather watch 8 ball, its an easier game to view on tv (solids and stripes no trying to find the next colored ball that resembles other closely colored balls).
just my opinion but i believe that if pool could market itself like pro sports
where you have created a rivalry between states or something on this order then this would bring more fans. the problem with pool is that most people that watch pool play the game, where in most other pro sports (football,baseball,hockey etc.)the viewers/fans for the most don't play the sport they just like the rivalry.
viewers---fans---rivalry equal more sponsors (not just pool related sponsors), more sponsors equall more money for the everyone involved in the sport.
jmo---
just my opinion but i believe that if pool could market itself like pro sports
where you have created a rivalry between states or something on this order then this would bring more fans. the problem with pool is that most people that watch pool play the game, where in most other pro sports (football,baseball,hockey etc.)the viewers/fans for the most don't play the sport they just like the rivalry.
viewers---fans---rivalry equal more sponsors (not just pool related sponsors), more sponsors equall more money for the everyone involved in the sport.
jmo---
Even if some young middle class guy/gal became enamored with pool by watching the top pros on tv, where would they play? Well, pool halls(if you can find one), sports bars and beer joints. It's bad enough they're often in a rough part of town but spend time in these places....no need to list all the stuff; it's been talked about so much before, and you'll see why so many would lose interest. What the pros/possible sponsers do is at the latter end of it.
JCIN said:
I would agree that watching poker on tv unedited would be quite boring, but when ESPN shows coverage on TV they obviously pick and choose their spots so it appears almost every hand is exciting. Poker works because of the highs, and lows, the excitement, the drama..The TV public gets instant gratification with every hand, and of course lets not forget the fact that anybody can play (it doesn't take physical skill so I believe there's some of the attraction), and of course the prize money draws people to the game...
Now take pool..lets face it professional pool players get out with ease, and to the normal Joe ( that has no clue about game) it does look boring, easy, and lacking excitement....all they see is a guy shooting balls into pockets....I think that's the reason why your seeing more and more speed pool, and trick shot events Televised ....more excitement...I think Earl may have something....He gets coverage because he is notorious, and a lot of successful sporting events do sport the good guy bad guy scenario ...so with that said the new wave of billiards should allow sharking, contain certain elements of full contact, Only hot women in bikinis should lap the table showing the rounds between each game played, and they need to blow kisses to the cameras lol( j/k but we do all know sex sells)......:thumbup:
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The same could be said for golf. Once you have a bag of clubs, then what?? What does a set of good clubs run? $500.00. People aren't going to run out and buy a golf cart and country club to play at. It's all about being an equipment whore. Getting the next best thing. You could do that with pool, upgrading your cue or case. With pool as a spectator sport I still don't know if it could compete with all the other things to do here in the US. Snooker is big in the UK. Asia as others have mentioned certainly isn't struggling. There is definitely room for improvement for pool in the US.Mowem down said:
srs314
shooterville.com
poohkiller said:
Well how is golf doing for a boring sport to watch? Pretty damn good I would say!
See these people that play golf want to watch golf.
Casual league pool players do not want to watch pool.
Was Golf forced on it's current audiance? No one can tell me I have to watch anything. So no.
See it's a very simple formula for the TV station, things that you put on TV where viewership is increasing you increase. Things where it's decreasing or stagnating you show less of, or in poor time slots.
Now until viewership increases at events and on TV and it has a large enough audiance sponsors know they won't get exposure. What you have to realize is these large sponsors know exaclty what the viewership numbers are for their player or event.
Tiger is a prime example, he is Nike's highest paid athlete. Do you think the fact that 35,000 more people attend events when he is there has anything to do with that? Of course.
No one has thrown money at something and made it popular. Your viewers decide that. So until we find a way to market pool and start to increase viewership we wont have any rich companys jumping to get into it.
I hate to admit this because I love the game and promote it so much, but as boring as you may think golf is I watch it more than pool.
The only pool I've watched lately is on TAR becuase the back stories and setups for the matches interest me. So maybe those guys are on to something.
There is a thread on here with Harriman and Schmidt plus their supporters going back and forth about another match. Doesn't look like it will happen but I am so intrigued the whole time I'm reading that I was checking it everyday to see if it would go, lol. I even threw my two cents in to try to mix it up.
Anyway let's hope 2009 brings some hope!
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Well, Take the America's cup Yacht race. It was live TV, the commentators made it interesting. I heard that the commentator Pete Montgomery could make a snail race interesting.
It is not just money, but you need to be able to sell it to a network. PotBlack used to be I think an English TV show in the early 70's.
There are so many pool related games as well. I am surprised that not much is seen on TV.
TV is what has produced alot of the big payout for the sports. Football and golf only started paying big money since the televised games.
Along come sponsers, advertisers, the networks etc
But all the above only works if people support the product.Looking from the outside, it seems that alot of pool players are tight with their money in the wrong areas. They spend $300 and up on a stick, then complain because it cost upto $50 for a tip 2 or 3 times a year. But will spend $1200 that year on beer and never think twice about it.
Marketing of the sport is what is needed. The people behind marketing speed pool and trick shots is a great thing.Table games get airtime, that will get interest in not just trick or speed pool, but there will be more interest in pool in general.
The other problem we have is the age restrictions of younger players getting access to tables. Unless a kid in your street has a table , then there is not much chance of bring people into the sport . Kids learn golf at 5, try taking a 10 yr old to a pool hall to learn 9 ball. Where do you start?
These kinds of things seem small, but access to the sport for the young need to be addressed.
My son a daughter play because we have a table at home, but they can not paly at the bar because the law/bar rules state must be 21yrs to play.
Just my thoughts, Neil Lickfold
It is not just money, but you need to be able to sell it to a network. PotBlack used to be I think an English TV show in the early 70's.
There are so many pool related games as well. I am surprised that not much is seen on TV.
TV is what has produced alot of the big payout for the sports. Football and golf only started paying big money since the televised games.
Along come sponsers, advertisers, the networks etc
But all the above only works if people support the product.Looking from the outside, it seems that alot of pool players are tight with their money in the wrong areas. They spend $300 and up on a stick, then complain because it cost upto $50 for a tip 2 or 3 times a year. But will spend $1200 that year on beer and never think twice about it.
Marketing of the sport is what is needed. The people behind marketing speed pool and trick shots is a great thing.Table games get airtime, that will get interest in not just trick or speed pool, but there will be more interest in pool in general.
The other problem we have is the age restrictions of younger players getting access to tables. Unless a kid in your street has a table , then there is not much chance of bring people into the sport . Kids learn golf at 5, try taking a 10 yr old to a pool hall to learn 9 ball. Where do you start?
These kinds of things seem small, but access to the sport for the young need to be addressed.
My son a daughter play because we have a table at home, but they can not paly at the bar because the law/bar rules state must be 21yrs to play.
Just my thoughts, Neil Lickfold
Until someone can stand up and show a corporate sponsor how they can make millions of dollars from sponsoring the billiards industry, all you're ever going to be doing is walking around complaining about how come no one ever just puts money in your hands so you can spend it! Another way of looking at it I guess would be like calling it a welfare system for the billiards industry...without corporate sponsorship!
Glen
Glen