Is Johan Ruysink out as USA Mosconi Cup Coach after only one year?

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could coach the Filipinos and they could beat the others
and I wouldn't even show up

except to watch or cover the bets

pool players don't need coaches

they play better without them

who has a coach at the derby
or us open

not that we can get a crowd to watch

pro pool players are no fun

it reminds me of professional wrestling
except its hard to see the game from very far off


Of course you're right...

...except that coaching (and several other factors) appear to work for the guys who have been kicking our ass for 10 out of the last 11 years.

As to the Filipinos, their approach and pool in their country is unique and shows there's more than one path to excellence when it comes to pool. Having said that, I don't speak much Tagalog but every time I see the Filipinos at a big event they are often huddled around a table discussing a particular shot or two, so in a sense they coach each other.

In any case, whatever the US is doin', it ain't workin'.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I ask "who cares?" It is a gimmicked up competition for European tv. I didn't watch it this year and don't plan on watching it later.

Make the races longer and cut out the break rules. I'll take Shane, Sky, JustinB, etc. against any of the europeans in races that prove the better player. Not saying they are locks but put the players in a situation where one bad break doesn't determine the match. Also, not saying that we've been getting all the bad breaks but just the fact of knowing a bad break ends it is causing our players to pucker up.

The Europeans are strong for sure but this format isn't showing anybody anything in my opinion. Quit watching the crap and then maybe they will make it worth watching....


I suppose you could say that about any event, any competition, whether it's the Olympics or the Super Bowl. It is what it is and we can't hang anymore.

Weren't no cryin' about the format back when we was kickin' European ass.

Lou Figueroa
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
I ask "who cares?" It is a gimmicked up competition for European tv. I didn't watch it this year and don't plan on watching it later.

Make the races longer and cut out the break rules. I'll take Shane, Sky, JustinB, etc. against any of the europeans in races that prove the better player. Not saying they are locks but put the players in a situation where one bad break doesn't determine the match. Also, not saying that we've been getting all the bad breaks but just the fact of knowing a bad break ends it is causing our players to pucker up.

The Europeans are strong for sure but this format isn't showing anybody anything in my opinion. Quit watching the crap and then maybe they will make it worth watching....

Lengthen the races and American chances drop significantly. At least with short races, we have a chance.

Even if you sat the top ten Europeans (let's say, for the sake of analysis only, Filler, Shaw, Appleton, Vandenberg, Feijen, Ouschan, Alcaide, Souquet, Kaci, Ekonomopoulos), Europe could field a Mosconi team that would be favored over any team the USA could assemble.

One example would be that a team of Alex Kazakis, Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz, Dennis Grabe, Mika Immonen, and Ruslan Chinakhov would likely be favored over any Team USA.

They had the long races at the US Open 9-ball. The gold medalist was Shaw, the silver medalist was Kaci and the bronze medalist was Sanchez-Ruiz. The only other player to reach the final day of competition was JL Chang of Taiwan. America came up empty in the longer race format, too.

It's not about the format. The top American pros have fallen behind the top European pros --- way behind, and one of the biggest reasons for this is that, in recent times, Americans live in denial about it rather than doing something about it.
 
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Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually, he is badly mistaken. The biggest rotation pool events in the US are surely a) the Derby City 9-ball, b) the US Open 9-ball c) the biannual Turning Stone Classic, d) the Jay Swanson Memorial and the e) Super Billiards Expo event. These are all played on the big tables. It's also true that most of the big gambling matches in America are on the big tables.

Where he is right, however, is that the trend toward more bar table events on the American pool calendar has made it harder for the American players to keep pace with the Europeans. This trend, however, is only about three years old, so the Americans lost five straight Mosconi Cups before it began.

I think the bigger issue for the top Americans is their skipping the WPA calendar events, and that's been going on for about a decade now. The American players don't face the toughest competition the world has to offer very often but many of the Mosconi-caliber European players play a) the Eurotour, b) the top American events, c) all the Matchroom events, and d) the WPA calendar of events.

Failure of most top American pros to regularly face the world's best (not Johann's fault) and their failure to address the weaknesses they display year after year after year at the Mosconi (definitely something Johann has to answer for in 2017 after there was no measurable progress on Team USA at the Mosconi), make up over 90% of the problem. Johann hit the nail on the head when he noted "There seems to be a gap in the talent development that needs to be fixed" but that's no more obvious today than it was a year ago, and to this point, Johann has displayed no aptitude for developing America's top talent. That doesn't mean he can't do it, but unless you are wearing rose-colored glasses, you'll understand 2017 for what it was -- a year in which no progress was made.

The growth in bar table tourneys is but a small factor in American failure in recent years, and Johann's generalization about "U.S. players making a living on bar tables" is somewhere between uninformed and ridiculous.

I think Johan was just being nice to explain why he is flying out to Doha and Shane was playing the U.S.bar table tournament. No I don't think for a second he thinks that's how they make their living, but saying in the record "my players can't prioritize what is important to be a great professional player but playing against the world best" would have been taken by many as a slight, even though it's the honest truth.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lengthen the races and American chances drop significantly. At least with short races, we have a chance.

Even if you sat the top ten Europeans (let's say, for the sake of analysis only, Filler, Shaw, Appleton, Vandenberg, Feijen, Ouschan, Alcaide, Souquet, Kaci, Ekonomopoulos), Europe could field a Mosconi team that would be favored over any team the USA could assemble.

One example would be that a team of Alex Kazakis, Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz, Dennis Grabe, Mario He, and Ruslan Chinakhov would likely be favored over any Team USA.

They had the long races at the US Open 9-ball. The gold medalist was Shaw, the silver medalist was Kaci and the bronze medalist was Sanchez-Ruiz. The only other player to reach the final day of competition was JL Chang of Taiwan. America came up empty in the longer race format, too.

It's not about the format. The top American pros have fallen behind the top European pros --- way behind, and one of the biggest reasons for this is that, in recent times, Americans live in denial about it rather than doing something about it.

Very true, Stu.
That last sentence is so profound. And it's why this situation is so frustrating. I didn't think Johan was brought in to save US pro pool, but rather, create an avenue where US professional pool should save themselves.

It's not how you lose, but what you do after you lose, how do you address what just happened. Our guys went and played at the US bar table championships.

The optics are simply that they couldn't give a darn. And it seems that Johan has realized this after listening to the interview.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... It's not how you lose, but what you do after you lose, how do you address what just happened. Our guys went and played at the US bar table championships. ...

Thorpe and Hatch did not play in the USBT events, but they are scheduled to play at Turning Stone.

SVB ($9,500), Woodward ($4,600), and Dominguez ($750) did play in the USBT events, and they are not scheduled to play at Turning Stone.

Maybe they'll all be at the DCC.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very true, Stu.
That last sentence is so profound. And it's why this situation is so frustrating. I didn't think Johan was brought in to save US pro pool, but rather, create an avenue where US professional pool should save themselves.

It's not how you lose, but what you do after you lose, how do you address what just happened. Our guys went and played at the US bar table championships.

The optics are simply that they couldn't give a darn. And it seems that Johan has realized this after listening to the interview.
I think also you have guys like Berg who openly said he skipped points events to play in BB events I'm sure that Berg was on his radar and was disappointed in those decisions


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krelldog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lengthen the races and American chances drop significantly. At least with short races, we have a chance.

Even if you sat the top ten Europeans (let's say, for the sake of analysis only, Filler, Shaw, Appleton, Vandenberg, Feijen, Ouschan, Alcaide, Souquet, Kaci, Ekonomopoulos), Europe could field a Mosconi team that would be favored over any team the USA could assemble.

One example would be that a team of Alex Kazakis, Francisco Sanchez-Ruiz, Dennis Grabe, Mika Immonen, and Ruslan Chinakhov would likely be favored over any Team USA.

They had the long races at the US Open 9-ball. The gold medalist was Shaw, the silver medalist was Kaci and the bronze medalist was Sanchez-Ruiz. The only other player to reach the final day of competition was JL Chang of Taiwan. America came up empty in the longer race format, too.

It's not about the format. The top American pros have fallen behind the top European pros --- way behind, and one of the biggest reasons for this is that, in recent times, Americans live in denial about it rather than doing something about it.

Absolutely spot on.....We are not even close to team Europe. I'm not sure we could beat their 4th or 5th team. So all this talk about different training is flat out ridiculous.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
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krelldog...Actually it isn't. The Europeons have much more consistent strokes, due to fundamentals training that the US team won't surrender to. So, if the right training can be implemented, and the team members will commit to it...they can actually improve. Enough to beat Europe? Who knows...but without it, doom to repetition of the past is inevitable.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So all this talk about different training is flat out ridiculous.
 

krelldog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My point is.....Their way better and way deeper in talent. I'm not arguing that we could be significantly better with better training. It boils down to culture, and the American pool culture isn't going to change anytime soon.....unfortunately.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Absolutely spot on.....We are not even close to team Europe. I'm not sure we could beat their 4th or 5th team. So all this talk about different training is flat out ridiculous.

No, training is the key to starting to bridge the gap, and improving American fundamentals is just part of the story. There is also a decision making gap that needs to be addressed. Europe has passed America in both conceptualization and execution in most aspects of the game.
 

PhilosopherKing

AzB Gold Member
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krelldog...Actually it isn't. The Europeons have much more consistent strokes, due to fundamentals training that the US team won't surrender to. So, if the right training can be implemented, and the team members will commit to it...they can actually improve. Enough to beat Europe? Who knows...but without it, doom to repetition of the past is inevitable.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
How does the "fundamentals" argument account for the Pinoys?
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does the "fundamentals" argument account for the Pinoys?

Pinoy players, and Asian players in general have excellent fundamentals. When they are playing, their more dynamic and flamboyant strokes are the ones that the spectator notices. But hidden (well not really) beneath that is rock solid fundamentals. Built on training akin to the Soviet Union's dominant era in the Olympics but with a smile.
 

pmac666

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
many good points in here and i agee with most of them, only i cant hear that money arguement anymore..... shane pays 10k to trex for 2 days of 1p but cant afford 2-3k to go to doha (when he doesnt makes the money)? thats bs and doesnt show any desire to change a thing! (but up to him ofc.......:frown: ).....also the others, including deuel and bergmann, noone can tell me they couldnt afford the trip if they really want to play there.......but nothing, nada, rien.....nothing will change in near future!
also the political situation wouldnt be a reason for me (noone gets beheaded for playing pool there), dafuk with shanes talent i would even play in alabama ( :p ) for the chance to play and beat the best for that damn trophy!
 

Pangit

Banned
Pinoy players, and Asian players in general have excellent fundamentals. When they are playing, their more dynamic and flamboyant strokes are the ones that the spectator notices. But hidden (well not really) beneath that is rock solid fundamentals. Built on training akin to the Soviet Union's dominant era in the Olympics but with a smile.

Well...I haven't seen many pool training academies in the PI. Certainly nothing like the Soviet Union Olympic teams of yesteryear.

It's the school of hard knocks, they get their "training" on the streets. Poverty is a strong motivational tool.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well...I haven't seen many pool training academies in the PI. Certainly nothing like the Soviet Union Olympic teams of yesteryear.

It's the school of hard knocks, they get their "training" on the streets. Poverty is a strong motivational tool.
I have seen toddlers on chairs doing drills the whole country is a training academy

1
 

PhilosopherKing

AzB Gold Member
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Silver Member
The two patron saints of pool in the Philippines are the polar opposites of what the European pool machine is being described as: Bustamante with his wonky mechanics, and Efren (also wonky mechanis, especially in his early prime) with his seemingly insane position routs, and use of English.

Biado, Orcollo, Luat, Alcano, etc... They all do their own thing.
 
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jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
How does the "fundamentals" argument account for the Pinoys?

Fundamental #1 - Pinoys are dedicated to winning, no matter what!
Fundamental #2 - Pinoys do not dog it for the cash!
Fundamental #3 - What ever you do, we can do it better!
Fundamental #4 - We are the best pool players in the world!
Fundamental #5 - Stay focused on all shots!
Fundamental #6 - Execute each shot perfectly!
Fundamental #7 - Never miss a ball!
Fundamental #8 - Pool is our job!
Fundamental #9 - Work hard at our job!
Fundamental #10 - Take care of our families!
 
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HelloBaby-

AzB Silver Member
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How does the "fundamentals" argument account for the Pinoys?

Yeah just one thing you didn't think about, Pinoys implemented another rule: the-1-million-hours rule. All of them have been playing nights and days since they were small, and continue to do so everyday (ask Jay about Dennis Orcullo). Americans don't actually hit that many hours except for SVB (surprise!), relatively speaking comparing to Pinoys.
 
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