He did NOTHING wrong. Bottom line is the U.S. is not a pool hotbed any more and may never be again. Look at the next generation or lack thereof. There are no good young US players in the pipeline. Now, look at Europe. They're lined-up and more on the way. I just watched a Polish kid become the youngest Eurotour winner ever. Wiktor Zielinski is only 16 and plays as good as Filler, Kaci you name it. Besides Thorpe who is going to be next great US player? Anybody??? Bottom line is it ain't a coaching problem. Far from it.
Is Johan Ruysink out as USA Mosconi Cup Coach after only one year?
- Thread starter Cardigan Kid
- Start date
I believe the players have some responsibility. At one level or another they could work and train harder.
On the financial side, I can't necessarily fault them. Travel is frippin' expensive nowadays. There is little chance that even our best players can afford to be paying dozens of entry fees, hopping on planes, staying at hotels, eating, and absorbing all the associated costs travel incurs.
So basically it boils down to the industry support JR alluded to. But what does that support buy a sponsor besides a feel good moment? There is little ROI in American culture for a successful pool player. IOWs, you're not going to see a successful MC team/player doing the next Budweiser ad on the Super Bowl. Even if there were, do American players have the savvy, ethics, and good grace to appreciate what professional sponsorship entails and provide the sponsor some ROI besides posing in an ad? Are they willing to *work* to support the sponsor? From what I've seen, too many American players think they are owed something. So in that sense, yeah, it's the player's fault too.
Lou Figueroa
Sad but true
Well shoot..........
So back to this bar box thing. Shane plays on a bar box and has been our dominant American player for going on 10 years. He said he loves them and grew up playing on them.
A couple of short sets under the MC style of play and rules does not truly decide who the best 9 Baller is, it just decides a couple of short races that take place over a short period of time.
I like the 7' Diamond tables and wish my hick Alaskan town had them, but it never will , so I am stuck playing on the poor condition crumby bar boxes if I venture away from my own home table.
Thousands of Americans love the bar box. I think there is room for both 7 and 9 foot tables.
The MC is thrilling to watch, even if America looses. So I will keep watching it and hope we beat Europe again some day.
I am more concerned about the poor sportsmanship I observed in the last MC, then who the winner or looser is. I hope the coaches on both sides tell their respective teams to act like gentlemen, win or loose and give the game of pool the respect pool lovers think the game deserves.
My 2 cents guys.
So back to this bar box thing. Shane plays on a bar box and has been our dominant American player for going on 10 years. He said he loves them and grew up playing on them.
A couple of short sets under the MC style of play and rules does not truly decide who the best 9 Baller is, it just decides a couple of short races that take place over a short period of time.
I like the 7' Diamond tables and wish my hick Alaskan town had them, but it never will , so I am stuck playing on the poor condition crumby bar boxes if I venture away from my own home table.
Thousands of Americans love the bar box. I think there is room for both 7 and 9 foot tables.
The MC is thrilling to watch, even if America looses. So I will keep watching it and hope we beat Europe again some day.
I am more concerned about the poor sportsmanship I observed in the last MC, then who the winner or looser is. I hope the coaches on both sides tell their respective teams to act like gentlemen, win or loose and give the game of pool the respect pool lovers think the game deserves.
My 2 cents guys.
You are 100 percent right dean. We(the american public) don,t put pool in our top 10-20 favorite sports in the u.s. ( its kinda like soccer,although soccer does have the money behind it, even though we have 300 million people,we just aren,t that interested in pool or soccer,except for the hardcore fans. Name 2 players on the u.s. National soccer team...yeah i don,t know any either lol. Thats the way the public here views pool)
Where are you getting any of this from? Who are these magical benefactors that the US players are turning down? None of this is actually a thing.
The reason I support Jay Helfert to lead the USA for the Mosconi Cup
If I had to pick my 100 favorite pool players in history...the majority would come from
the action days...and it was action that made American pool players the best.
Jay has been there and done it...and I don't think US pool players are ready to copy
the mind set of the Europeans....I've been there several times, walking into clubs
where all the tables are going...not a dime being bet.
They play admirably, none-the-less.
I feel the US team has got to stop thinking like milers...and think like dashers.
We had lots of action like that....most of the biggest action I saw at the Rack were
TWO AHEAD one-pocket for more money than what modern pool players make in a
year.
America can do this from their own experience...but they got to learn how to charge
out of the gate FAST...especially Shane...
...and they've got to embrace hill-hill type pressure.
JAY HELFERT FOR COACH !!!!!!!!!!!!
Caveat....Jay, this doesn't mean I'm backing off on the Oscar debacle....
...I'll be posting on that thread again......
:angry:
Simple fix. Show me the money. Make getting on the team more lucrative and everything will work it's self out. Every clown who could chalk up a cue ran to the IPT including the Brits (Darren, Boyes, Melling etc) for the possible payday. These guys all played English 8 Ball and had never played on a pool surface seriously until then. We all know IPT was a sham but it goes to show what money in the pot does. Like they say...follow the money.
Make the top spots on a team pay like this and the boys will be killing each other for a place on the team.
All points tourneys are 9 ball and the Mosconi Cup plays same break rules. No bar box BS. No Ten Ball with different break and skillset to skew results.
Top Spot - 50K
2nd - 40K
3rd - 30K
4th-5th - 25K
The above would be the minimum. 2x would make the water boil. Now no more short sighted decisions about which tourneys to play. Everyone would be chasing the big prize of getting on the team. Do that an a mannequin could coach the teams.
As a side note lose the poor playing funky Rasson and make all the qualifying events on the same table.
You want to guarantee the result let guys like Alex P who actually life in the USA play. Then it's game set match. That would include, Shaw, Darren, Mika, Thorsten etc. 20 plus top pros playing for the cash will drive this home...even without the USA transplants.
Make the top spots on a team pay like this and the boys will be killing each other for a place on the team.
All points tourneys are 9 ball and the Mosconi Cup plays same break rules. No bar box BS. No Ten Ball with different break and skillset to skew results.
Top Spot - 50K
2nd - 40K
3rd - 30K
4th-5th - 25K
The above would be the minimum. 2x would make the water boil. Now no more short sighted decisions about which tourneys to play. Everyone would be chasing the big prize of getting on the team. Do that an a mannequin could coach the teams.
As a side note lose the poor playing funky Rasson and make all the qualifying events on the same table.
You want to guarantee the result let guys like Alex P who actually life in the USA play. Then it's game set match. That would include, Shaw, Darren, Mika, Thorsten etc. 20 plus top pros playing for the cash will drive this home...even without the USA transplants.
IPT type money will certainly bring them. Read the 3rd last paragraph:
http://https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/jul/29/snooker.gdnsport3
Mosconi Cup is different though - when asked to play they play. It's not about who is the best action player or who resides in the USA. It's about a USA team vs a Europe team. Sure, Alex, Shaw, etc might make the team stronger but that would cheapen the event, there would be no sponsorship and it wouldn't happen.
http://https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/jul/29/snooker.gdnsport3
Mosconi Cup is different though - when asked to play they play. It's not about who is the best action player or who resides in the USA. It's about a USA team vs a Europe team. Sure, Alex, Shaw, etc might make the team stronger but that would cheapen the event, there would be no sponsorship and it wouldn't happen.
The reason I support Jay Helfert to lead the USA for the Mosconi Cup
If I had to pick my 100 favorite pool players in history...the majority would come from
the action days...and it was action that made American pool players the best.
Jay has been there and done it...and I don't think US pool players are ready to copy
the mind set of the Europeans....I've been there several times, walking into clubs
where all the tables are going...not a dime being bet.
They play admirably, none-the-less.
I feel the US team has got to stop thinking like milers...and think like dashers.
We had lots of action like that....most of the biggest action I saw at the Rack were
TWO AHEAD one-pocket for more money than what modern pool players make in a
year.
America can do this from their own experience...but they got to learn how to charge
out of the gate FAST...especially Shane...
...and they've got to embrace hill-hill type pressure.
JAY HELFERT FOR COACH !!!!!!!!!!!!
Caveat....Jay, this doesn't mean I'm backing off on the Oscar debacle....
...I'll be posting on that thread again......
In their day, American players were undoubtably the best. But the rest of the world has caught up and flown past us. Old school, action day guys, will not get it anymore.
Lou Figueroa
And one more thing: we just had the best coach in the history of the MC coach the US team and he couldn't do squadoush with the American players.
We now know that it ain't the coach and anyone who thinks hiring one particular guy to be the US coach is going to make a difference -- especially some guy that says he has the secret sauce but will not reveal his hand (to wildly mix metaphors) -- is kidding themselves.
Lou Figueroa
We now know that it ain't the coach and anyone who thinks hiring one particular guy to be the US coach is going to make a difference -- especially some guy that says he has the secret sauce but will not reveal his hand (to wildly mix metaphors) -- is kidding themselves.
Lou Figueroa
I could coach the Filipinos and they could beat the others
and I wouldn't even show up
except to watch or cover the bets
pool players don't need coaches
they play better without them
who has a coach at the derby
or us open
not that we can get a crowd to watch
pro pool players are no fun
it reminds me of professional wrestling
except its hard to see the game from very far off
and I wouldn't even show up
except to watch or cover the bets
pool players don't need coaches
they play better without them
who has a coach at the derby
or us open
not that we can get a crowd to watch
pro pool players are no fun
it reminds me of professional wrestling
except its hard to see the game from very far off
Mosconi cup
I ask "who cares?" It is a gimmicked up competition for European tv. I didn't watch it this year and don't plan on watching it later.
Make the races longer and cut out the break rules. I'll take Shane, Sky, JustinB, etc. against any of the europeans in races that prove the better player. Not saying they are locks but put the players in a situation where one bad break doesn't determine the match. Also, not saying that we've been getting all the bad breaks but just the fact of knowing a bad break ends it is causing our players to pucker up.
The Europeans are strong for sure but this format isn't showing anybody anything in my opinion. Quit watching the crap and then maybe they will make it worth watching....
I ask "who cares?" It is a gimmicked up competition for European tv. I didn't watch it this year and don't plan on watching it later.
Make the races longer and cut out the break rules. I'll take Shane, Sky, JustinB, etc. against any of the europeans in races that prove the better player. Not saying they are locks but put the players in a situation where one bad break doesn't determine the match. Also, not saying that we've been getting all the bad breaks but just the fact of knowing a bad break ends it is causing our players to pucker up.
The Europeans are strong for sure but this format isn't showing anybody anything in my opinion. Quit watching the crap and then maybe they will make it worth watching....
Read this article about Johan written by American instructor Bert Kinister....
http://www.sneakypetemafia.com/the-value-of-a-coach-bert-kinister/
"Finally on the road to Johan’s home, night club and pool room in The Hague, we coasted in under cover of darkness with no brakes, no gas, no sleep and there they were waiting—I do not know for how long—eight to 12 young men acting like a drill team, waiting to learn pool."
First, in the radio interview Johan mentioned the money that is in American pool but it is directed in the wrong places according to him.
I don't doubt for a second that if a few young American players wanted to dedicate a year or more to Johan, that he would have the system in place to train them.
In less than a year, he had a funded, live streamed tournament lined up in Russia, created for the US Mosconi Cup team to play team Russia. That showed me his ability to make big gigantic steps in very short times with the training regarding team USA.
If billy or skylar asked to stay in Europe to train, I have no doubt Johan would've made it possible. Skylar didn't even make the trip anyways.
There is always a way. The players have to want it first and foremost.
This format shows who is best...in this format!
You may be right about longer races, or you may be wrong, its irrelevant though, as the format isn't going to change.
The only way to win is to get better at the format of the competition, rather than insisting the format of the competition changes!
Living in USA doesn't mean you're american ...
So some of the members think they should change the table manufacturer, make the races longer, get a new coach, tweek the format, alter the break rules, so on and so on.. The Europeans must be rolling on the floor laughing! The one and only way we are going to win is by playing better pool. That happens to be the way the Europeans are doing it BTW, just in case some did not notice. That and only that is what we need to do, period..
Actually, he is badly mistaken. The biggest rotation pool events in the US are surely a) the Derby City 9-ball, b) the US Open 9-ball c) the biannual Turning Stone Classic, d) the Jay Swanson Memorial and the e) Super Billiards Expo event. These are all played on the big tables. It's also true that most of the big gambling matches in America are on the big tables.
Where he is right, however, is that the trend toward more bar table events on the American pool calendar has made it harder for the American players to keep pace with the Europeans. This trend, however, is only about three years old, so the Americans lost five straight Mosconi Cups before it began.
I think the bigger issue for the top Americans is their skipping the WPA calendar events, and that's been going on for about a decade now. The American players don't face the toughest competition the world has to offer very often but many of the Mosconi-caliber European players play a) the Eurotour, b) the top American events, c) all the Matchroom events, and d) the WPA calendar of events.
Failure of most top American pros to regularly face the world's best (not Johann's fault) and their failure to address the weaknesses they display year after year after year at the Mosconi (definitely something Johann has to answer for in 2017 after there was no measurable progress on Team USA at the Mosconi), make up over 90% of the problem. Johann hit the nail on the head when he noted "There seems to be a gap in the talent development that needs to be fixed" but that's no more obvious today than it was a year ago, and to this point, Johann has displayed no aptitude for developing America's top talent. That doesn't mean he can't do it, but unless you are wearing rose-colored glasses, you'll understand 2017 for what it was -- a year in which no progress was made.
The growth in bar table tourneys is but a small factor in American failure in recent years, and Johann's generalization about "U.S. players making a living on bar tables" is somewhere between uninformed and ridiculous.
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