Is taper roll acceptable?
- Thread starter Tontus
- Start date
If it bothers you then it is not acceptable, not brand new.
Expecting a shaft to stay perfectly straight is not realistic.
It's 40% how well the cuemaker seasoned the wood, 40% how you treat/store it and 20% luck.
gr. Dave
EDIT: Sorry, just saw this was posted in the cuemaker forum, I am not a cuemaker so take my opinion fwiw.
Expecting a shaft to stay perfectly straight is not realistic.
It's 40% how well the cuemaker seasoned the wood, 40% how you treat/store it and 20% luck.
gr. Dave
EDIT: Sorry, just saw this was posted in the cuemaker forum, I am not a cuemaker so take my opinion fwiw.
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Life 101: Nothing is perfect.
What is acceptable is up to the beholder. That would be you.
We (all of us) compromise our definition of perfection on a daily basis.
In everything we buy, in everything we do, we make a determination as to what
is acceptable. An item doesn't have to be perfect to be acceptable.
Apparently this shaft is not acceptable to you. That's all that matters.
It doesn't have to be perfect but it does need to be acceptable.
If it is UN-acceptable to you, you needn't ask any of us if you should contact the maker.
You already know that you should contact the maker. Which, BTW, should have been your first move.
No one on this forum, other than the maker, is in a position to do anything about
your shaft. Only the maker can make this shaft acceptable to you.
By coming to this forum as your first move, with your displeasure regarding your new
shaft, you are laying the ground-work for a potentially less than perfect resolution.
I don't care who the builder is, there is the chance that he reads this forum.
Simply stated, if it were me, I'd be asking you why you didn't come to me in the first place???
The cue buying experience is btwn the buyer and the seller. No one else need apply.
If there is a problem with your new purchase, it is incumbent upon the builder/seller
to make this right for you. No one else can do this.
If and only when, attempts at a resolution btwn you and the builder reach an impasse,
should 3rd party intervention be sought. Until then, it's btwn you and the builder.
Good Luck, KJ
Wood is an organic material, and most of the time will not stay PERFECTLY straight. Probably 90% (or more) of the shafts that I have seen have some degree of "roll" to them. The real question is how much is there in your shaft, and how much is acceptable to you and your cuemaker. A "little" will not hamper performance in any measurable way. Remember, the ball is 2.25" and that pocket is usually well over 4". A couple of thousandths of "roll" is not going to cause you to miss. Just my opinion.
Hi,
Not acceptable. When taking a turn on a shaft, the cue maker should be watching the shaft between centers while turning. A good indicator of a possible taper roll is the slight bouncing of the shaft on the saw blade or an slight oscillating sound when the saw or cutter is fully in-gauged on the taper.
Yes, the wood seasoning is very importance. Generally I personally season my shafts a minimum of 4 years at .950 then take .010 cuts down to .900. If at .900 the shaft is not turning perfect with no blur in the middle when placed between centers at 1000 rpm, I know it may have at least a slight taper roll and I reject it. I am aiming for a 10 year seasoning backlog as this it the high standard set by Ernie Gutierrez who knows a little bit about this subject.
I define taper roll as a cue that rolls true on the X axis on the table but has a slight bounce variance when you look at the shaft contour between the table and the shaft while rolling. It has happened to me from time to time until I changed my tapering process and concentricity control. I would rather collate out a shaft at .900 rather than spending more time to take it all the way down hoping the will get better. It never gets better. If it don't spin straight like a laser at .900 it is not going to get better when you make it skinnier. This is the main reason I don't install my rings & collars until .860.
In my opinion, taper roll has nothing to due with growth rings, density, or mineral content. I think it is the result of a non uniformity of density within the length of the rod. If the middle of the shaft is more dense or less dense that the outside of a dowel that density differential will cause that wobble or blur when spinning. You would never see this with metal because the density is uniform throughout the rod.
Because the shaft is tapered, this differential in density usually reveals the taper roll about 8" to 15" back from the tip and not in the middle because the spine is much thicker.
In most cases a shaft like this will roll fine when you look at the ferrule or tip end but you must look back from the tip to see if there is movement between the table and the OD somewhere when rolled. Bottom line is if you have a cue with table roll visible to the eye under some portion of the shaft, don't ship it and make a new shaft. The customer will always notice, don't let them or your reputation down. When you make a great shaft don't be afraid to factor at least $ 200.00 for that work. Shafts eat up a lot of time, you got to get paid for your effort!
Rick Geschrey
Not acceptable. When taking a turn on a shaft, the cue maker should be watching the shaft between centers while turning. A good indicator of a possible taper roll is the slight bouncing of the shaft on the saw blade or an slight oscillating sound when the saw or cutter is fully in-gauged on the taper.
Yes, the wood seasoning is very importance. Generally I personally season my shafts a minimum of 4 years at .950 then take .010 cuts down to .900. If at .900 the shaft is not turning perfect with no blur in the middle when placed between centers at 1000 rpm, I know it may have at least a slight taper roll and I reject it. I am aiming for a 10 year seasoning backlog as this it the high standard set by Ernie Gutierrez who knows a little bit about this subject.
I define taper roll as a cue that rolls true on the X axis on the table but has a slight bounce variance when you look at the shaft contour between the table and the shaft while rolling. It has happened to me from time to time until I changed my tapering process and concentricity control. I would rather collate out a shaft at .900 rather than spending more time to take it all the way down hoping the will get better. It never gets better. If it don't spin straight like a laser at .900 it is not going to get better when you make it skinnier. This is the main reason I don't install my rings & collars until .860.
In my opinion, taper roll has nothing to due with growth rings, density, or mineral content. I think it is the result of a non uniformity of density within the length of the rod. If the middle of the shaft is more dense or less dense that the outside of a dowel that density differential will cause that wobble or blur when spinning. You would never see this with metal because the density is uniform throughout the rod.
Because the shaft is tapered, this differential in density usually reveals the taper roll about 8" to 15" back from the tip and not in the middle because the spine is much thicker.
In most cases a shaft like this will roll fine when you look at the ferrule or tip end but you must look back from the tip to see if there is movement between the table and the OD somewhere when rolled. Bottom line is if you have a cue with table roll visible to the eye under some portion of the shaft, don't ship it and make a new shaft. The customer will always notice, don't let them or your reputation down. When you make a great shaft don't be afraid to factor at least $ 200.00 for that work. Shafts eat up a lot of time, you got to get paid for your effort!
Rick Geschrey
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Truth is everyone has a different level of acceptance, if its really bothers you then don't hesitate to contact the original cuemaker, I know the maker will do everything to satisfy his customer but dont forget that cuemakers are also humans and prone to any mistake even if he is respectable or not..
Good luck to your next move.
--Al
Good luck to your next move.
--Al
i personally have no respect for a person hiding behind the bs term taper roll I think its become a widely acceptable copout.
either the shaft is straight and round or it isnt. The reason its not rolling true could be one of a hundred things, alot of which could be attributed to a builder doing a poor job, or a builder doing a great job and other variables not cooperating. Just my opinion of course
either the shaft is straight and round or it isnt. The reason its not rolling true could be one of a hundred things, alot of which could be attributed to a builder doing a poor job, or a builder doing a great job and other variables not cooperating. Just my opinion of course
I don't understand this statement, given that a cuemaker can do his job PERFECTLY, and the condition can still develop due to environmental factors or customer abuse. The fact is that the materials used to create shafts simply cannot guarantee perfect straightness under all conditions. If that level of tollerance is what is expected, then a different material like steel or carbonfiber should be used, but then the cue would play like crap...
What a cuemaker CAN guarantee is that the shaft is perfectly straight when it leaves his shop, and stays reasonably straight over a reasonable amount of time.
I agree with this. There is no such thing as "taper roll." Its straight or it isn't. Put the shaft between centers and you'll see.
That being said, tomorow the shaft may roll dead straight. Wood wants to be happy. Today, it is happy with a little wobble. Tomorrow it may be happy in a different place. Finding a pefectly straight shaft, outside of the shop, is rare. Yes, possible but rare.
Is it enough to affect your shot? Probably not. Is it enough to affect your head? Maybe... Give the cue maker a call and be cool about it. I'm sure it can get worked out.
As a potential custom cue or secondary market cue purchaser, I think it would be great if one of you guys, our very respected cue makers, would put up a clear and concise thread with the definition of warp and taper roll with supporting video evidence to show what you would expect for either of those terms. Maybe a video showing a completely straight and concentric cue/shaft on a lathe spinning and on a table rolling then doing the same for one with a taper roll and one with a warp. Maybe even covering the look of parabolic tapers spinning so that gets covered as well. Would be hard to argue these terms with a good reference sitting out there. Maybe that thread could be a sticky on this and the wanted sections.
Rick I really like the clarity of your definition and your passion for not producing shafts with a taper roll.
I don't think the definitions for warped and taper roll have to be so controversial on this site and vague in customers or sellers minds. It would lead to much better deals going through and to happier customers who buy online without the benefit of being local to the seller.
Rick I really like the clarity of your definition and your passion for not producing shafts with a taper roll.
I don't think the definitions for warped and taper roll have to be so controversial on this site and vague in customers or sellers minds. It would lead to much better deals going through and to happier customers who buy online without the benefit of being local to the seller.
i agree with you completely, i just disagree with the term and how its used as an excuse to hide bad work or hide the understandable truth of environmental effects
Hi,
Thanks for the kind words. No video but here are some pics of tapering equipment in our shop.
A shaft is a complex geometry and one area of the shaft can be skewed or altered from your manufacturing process. Also concentricity of the X axis of the tapered unit can play havoc if the centers are rumming.
Another contributing factor can be too much pressure or hogging the taper with the live tooling. This deflection pressure on the shaft can lead to non uniformity since the resistance to loading is very different @ -X 15" than it is the closer your are to the head and tail stock centers. This is usually not a factor on the butts because of the thicker stock.
Controlling feeds and lathe speeds, finding the perfect tailstock spring loading pressure, and taking light cuts is always the correct way to go.
In the last 8 years I have used four different machines including CNC to produce my shafts and I am totally convinced that the Table Saw Tapering Machines with DC Motors and controllers produces the best tapers and RMS finish for both shafts and butts because of vernier control of the process.
There are many cue lathes on the market that require the user to have to sand the hell out of the shaft to make it smooth because of many factors that lead to spirals or tiny grooves. When you have to do that much sanding, you ruin the taper geometry and consistency and this sanding factor alone can contribute to taper roll because the grain hardness is different over the circumference of the rod and sands a slight oval or pancakes the rod, ie. taper or table roll a-go-go.:banghead: Carbide cutter teeth hold a contour in wood much better than sandpaper. The more you sand the more you distort the the repeatability of the contour.
Rick Geschrey
Butt and Shaft Saw Tapering Machines with DC Controllers and Dial Indicators for taper bar elevation changes.
Making a quality repeatable shaft taper is a very difficult thing to do unless you have all eyes and senses on the process control situation. These 4 shafts are right off the machine and will only require less that a minute of very light flat sanding after sealing and grain raise to produce a repeatable taper geometry without a taper roll.
Thanks for the kind words. No video but here are some pics of tapering equipment in our shop.
A shaft is a complex geometry and one area of the shaft can be skewed or altered from your manufacturing process. Also concentricity of the X axis of the tapered unit can play havoc if the centers are rumming.
Another contributing factor can be too much pressure or hogging the taper with the live tooling. This deflection pressure on the shaft can lead to non uniformity since the resistance to loading is very different @ -X 15" than it is the closer your are to the head and tail stock centers. This is usually not a factor on the butts because of the thicker stock.
Controlling feeds and lathe speeds, finding the perfect tailstock spring loading pressure, and taking light cuts is always the correct way to go.
In the last 8 years I have used four different machines including CNC to produce my shafts and I am totally convinced that the Table Saw Tapering Machines with DC Motors and controllers produces the best tapers and RMS finish for both shafts and butts because of vernier control of the process.
There are many cue lathes on the market that require the user to have to sand the hell out of the shaft to make it smooth because of many factors that lead to spirals or tiny grooves. When you have to do that much sanding, you ruin the taper geometry and consistency and this sanding factor alone can contribute to taper roll because the grain hardness is different over the circumference of the rod and sands a slight oval or pancakes the rod, ie. taper or table roll a-go-go.:banghead: Carbide cutter teeth hold a contour in wood much better than sandpaper. The more you sand the more you distort the the repeatability of the contour.
Rick Geschrey
Butt and Shaft Saw Tapering Machines with DC Controllers and Dial Indicators for taper bar elevation changes.
Making a quality repeatable shaft taper is a very difficult thing to do unless you have all eyes and senses on the process control situation. These 4 shafts are right off the machine and will only require less that a minute of very light flat sanding after sealing and grain raise to produce a repeatable taper geometry without a taper roll.
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I personally age my shafts for 20 years.
I soak them on metallic dye so my x-ray machine can tell the directionality ( is that even a word ? ) of the wood.
My laser guided taper machine with harmonic sensored ( is that even a word ? ) cutter, cuts evenly according to the woods' density and direction.
I store them in controlled storage according to the customer's zip code.
The computer that controls them checks Weather.com daily so it can trigger the heater and humidifier to match the zip code.
There ya go.
I milked this thread.
Any other maker wanna milk this thread ?
I soak them on metallic dye so my x-ray machine can tell the directionality ( is that even a word ? ) of the wood.
My laser guided taper machine with harmonic sensored ( is that even a word ? ) cutter, cuts evenly according to the woods' density and direction.
I store them in controlled storage according to the customer's zip code.
The computer that controls them checks Weather.com daily so it can trigger the heater and humidifier to match the zip code.
There ya go.
I milked this thread.
Any other maker wanna milk this thread ?
Warped=taper roll=warped
The degree in which is acceptable is the question. As stated, a cue maker should send out a straight shaft. Since it is made of wood, it can and will move no matter what you do, how long you store it, how long between turns, how big your cuts are, etc. It is wood. It should, however, stay reasonably straight.
Got milk?
Different States?
Different Counties?
Different Humidity Weather?
Afterall if you are not happy with the cue you just bought, should either give the ORIGINAL maker a call or email. Let the original cue maker have a chance to take care of the problem before you start this open forum. Just my opinion.
Different Counties?
Different Humidity Weather?
Afterall if you are not happy with the cue you just bought, should either give the ORIGINAL maker a call or email. Let the original cue maker have a chance to take care of the problem before you start this open forum. Just my opinion.
Hi,
Thanks for the kind words. No video but here are some pics of tapering equipment in our shop.
A shaft is a complex geometry and one area of the shaft can be skewed or altered from your manufacturing process. Also concentricity of the X axis of the tapered unit can play havoc if the centers are rumming.
Another contributing factor can be too much pressure or hogging the taper with the live tooling. This deflection pressure on the shaft can lead to non uniformity since the resistance to loading is very different @ -X 15" than it is the closer your are to the head and tail stock centers. This is usually not a factor on the butts because of the thicker stock.
Controlling feeds and lathe speeds, finding the perfect tailstock spring loading pressure, and taking light cuts is always the correct way to go.
In the last 8 years I have used four different machines including CNC to produce my shafts and I am totally convinced that the Table Saw Tapering Machines with DC Motors and controllers produces the best tapers and RMS finish for both shafts and butts because of vernier control of the process.
There are many cue lathes on the market that require the user to have to sand the hell out of the shaft to make it smooth because of many factors that lead to spirals or tiny grooves. When you have to do that much sanding, you ruin the taper geometry and consistency and this sanding factor alone can contribute to taper roll because the grain hardness is different over the circumference of the rod and sands a slight oval or pancakes the rod, ie. taper or table roll a-go-go.:banghead: Carbide cutter teeth hold a contour in wood much better than sandpaper. The more you sand the more you distort the the repeatability of the contour.
Rick Geschrey
Butt and Shaft Saw Tapering Machines with DC Controllers and Dial Indicators for taper bar elevation changes.
Making a quality repeatable shaft taper is a very difficult thing to do unless you have all eyes and senses on the process control situation. These 4 shafts are right off the machine and will only require less that a minute of very light flat sanding after sealing and grain raise to produce a repeatable taper geometry without a taper roll.
[/QUO
Awsome tapering set up!!!!!!!!!!
Warped=taper roll=warped
The degree in which is acceptable is the question. As stated, a cue maker should send out a straight shaft. Since it is made of wood, it can and will move no matter what you do, how long you store it, how long between turns, how big your cuts are, etc. It is wood. It should, however, stay reasonably straight.
Got milk?
I just wanted to clarify something. Maybe warped isn't the best term to use. The shaft is not true to the center line. So, whether the shaft is warped, pushed from tool pressure, egg shaped from cutting a warped blank.... Its all the same end result; the shaft does not roll straight.
I've said before, there are only four things that make a cue not roll straight/true. Shaft is off centerline, butt is off centerline, pin/insert not installed true to centerline, and the face(s) are not perpendicular to centerline.
<~~I should have brought cookies...
Tontus, there is no such thing as taper roll, either a shaft is straight or it isn't straight which means simply it has a warp.
Now sometimes this can be caused by an uneven application of finish, or if the cue is assembled a cues wrap can cause what appears to be a roll in the shaft. It could also be the facing of the cues joint, both the shaft end and the butts end.
If you are getting this so called roll out by rolling the cue on a flat surface or a pool table it could be any of the problems I listed above.
There is only one way to find out if a butt or a shaft have a warp, it must be put in a lathe and spun between centers any other method is not accurate.
JIMO
Hi,
Anyone who is interested in one of these machines can contact my good friend and Cue Maker Darrin Hill @ Hiilscues.com.
He modified my Bludworth shaft machine and machined all of the parts for my Butt Machine on his mill. I was only the helper, Darrin is the Master at cue machine building.
The DC Motors and controllers were about $ 1000.00 per machine and worth every penny. I had an engineer in California help me spec. the HP, RPM and torque parameters for this application. You can run the machines all day long and they don't get hot, they barely get warm.
Darrin's not cheap but every thing he does is over build and produces a quality repeatable part. I couldn't be happier.
Rick Geschrey
Anyone who is interested in one of these machines can contact my good friend and Cue Maker Darrin Hill @ Hiilscues.com.
He modified my Bludworth shaft machine and machined all of the parts for my Butt Machine on his mill. I was only the helper, Darrin is the Master at cue machine building.
The DC Motors and controllers were about $ 1000.00 per machine and worth every penny. I had an engineer in California help me spec. the HP, RPM and torque parameters for this application. You can run the machines all day long and they don't get hot, they barely get warm.
Darrin's not cheap but every thing he does is over build and produces a quality repeatable part. I couldn't be happier.
Rick Geschrey
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