It's a copy not a tribute ~ Can we be honest?

[West Point 1987]

It's a fair point. I think making an exact copy of a cue made by a living, active cue maker would be a bit of a problem... But making a copy of a cue made by a deceased cue maker, especially if owned by a famous player is another thing. I also believe that many of these "tributes" or "copies" may in fact be technically better cues, with better hit/playability, due to better materials and perhaps the current cue maker being (gasp) actually more skilled than the old master he's copying. I mean, why take a 100 year old house cue and convert it, when you can have a cue maker build one from scratch, with the same colored veneers, same basic construction technique, but with better select woods and more durable modern epoxies, more precise inlay work, etc.? Don't get me wrong, Titlist conversions are wonderful things...but what's wrong with a maker building a copy of a Rambow 26 1/2 trophy cue from scratch? Rambow's not making them today, nor is George, nor is Gus. Someday, someone will commission a copy of a specific Tascarella or a specific Hercek.

Gibson and Fender are selling exact copies of famous custom guitars they made that Hendrix, SRV, Clapton, BB King, etc. had or still have. No one is trying to pass off an SRV "Lenny" model Strat as the genuine article, they just want to own/play one that looks the same...right down to factory created wear patterns to mimic the condition of the original. Other companies have made nearly exact copies of Stratocasters and Flying Vs. This happens in most custom made articles. I see no reason a player or collector that admires the Balabushka Willie Mosconi played with can't commission a copy made by a highly skilled cue maker. It pays tribute to the old master and is a credit to the skill of the modern builder...and the taste of the customer.

 

[Bavafongoul]

The use of the term Tribute Cue is more than suitable and in fact, it's highly appropriate by "definition" of the word and by customary cue-making practices as well.

TRIBUTE......"something you do, or say, or build to show respect and admiration for someone or something; an act or statement of gift that is intended to show gratitude."

So to each their own and besides the use of the term "tribute cue" being totally in line with the actual design of the cue being made....Bushka, Szamboti, etc., the use of another term like
copy, clone or duplicate. Well, that just sounds cheap and some of these cues cost thousands and as such, deserve a much, more respectable reference to style and type of cue design.

Ergo..... consistent with the rules of grammar, proper use of word definition, and billiard industry nomenclature, using the term Tribute Cue is very much an industry accepted practice and
to find fault with this terminology is merely just a individual viewpoint. And obviously, anyone is entitled to have their own opinion but just saying it isn't raining won't keep you from getting wet.

 

[ICue71]

It doesn't matter what is said on a pool forum, if people are willing to pay for the (insert term here) then some cue makers will make them. It will mostly be cue makers who can't sell their own stuff, but still they will chase the money. And as long as people compliment the work and carry on about it buyers will want it. Then the trouble comes when the buyers and sellers start to defend it and pretend that it's fine to do. Mostly they say "well everyone has done it" which IMO is like when your mom says if everyone jumps off the bridge will you??? I don't believe it's right, but I also don't believe it can be stopped.

 

[ridewiththewind]

It's a fair point. I think making an exact copy of a cue made by a living, active cue maker would be a bit of a problem... But making a copy of a cue made by a deceased cue maker, especially if owned by a famous player is another thing. I also believe that many of these "tributes" or "copies" may in fact be technically better cues, with better hit/playability, due to better materials and perhaps the current cue maker being (gasp) actually more skilled than the old master he's copying. I mean, why take a 100 year old house cue and convert it, when you can have a cue maker build one from scratch, with the same colored veneers, same basic construction technique, but with better select woods and more durable modern epoxies, more precise inlay work, etc.? Don't get me wrong, Titlist conversions are wonderful things...but what's wrong with a maker building a copy of a Rambow 26 1/2 trophy cue from scratch? Rambow's not making them today, nor is George, nor is Gus. Someday, someone will commission a copy of a specific Tascarella or a specific Hercek.

Gibson and Fender are selling exact copies of famous custom guitars they made that Hendrix, SRV, Clapton, BB King, etc. had or still have. No one is trying to pass off an SRV "Lenny" model Strat as the genuine article, they just want to own/play one that looks the same...right down to factory created wear patterns to mimic the condition of the original. Other companies have made nearly exact copies of Stratocasters and Flying Vs. This happens in most custom made articles. I see no reason a player or collector that admires the Balabushka Willie Mosconi played with can't commission a copy made by a highly skilled cue maker. It pays tribute to the old master and is a credit to the skill of the modern builder...and the taste of the customer.

Bad example...since Gibson and Fender are selling copies, or to be more correct, re-issues of models that they themselves originally produced. Not the same thing at all.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Ken_4fun]

Bad example...since Gibson and Fender are selling copies, or to be more correct, re-issues of models that they themselves originally produced. Not the same thing at all.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Agreed. Ken

 

[macguy]

I guess I am getting tired of the term tribute. I am not trying to turn into Jimbo, but maybe I just took a few years to fully comprehend what he was saying long ago. The cues that are being called tributes are just copies. Exactly how do they tribute anything? Can't we just call them a copy?

I don't think anyone is doing anything so terrible. I have had several cues built that I got the designs from other cues I had seen. I had Gus Szamboti make me an exact copy of plain Balabushka with the four points and rings in the joint. I was surprised to see when I got it it had four veneers just at the butt cap I didn't order. There was no need to call and ask about the veneers I knew why they were there.

He also made me another that people today refer to as the Gambler cue. I had seen a Richard Black like that I mentally copied and ordered one from Szamboti. Mostly the coping is the design elements. I don't think someone will mistake a cue with a radial pin for a Balabushka because it looks something like one. I don't think a cue maker should steal someone's design and add it to their line.

Quite honestly, my Szamboti's would have been more valuable then the makers cues that were copied anyway including Balabushka at the time.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Lets face it, George's work is the most copied style in all of cue making, by so many different cue makers. If George was still making a living at it, then it would be quite wrong imo, as one could go to him to have a cue made (Just think what George's wait list would be, 10 years would be minutes on his list HA). But that is not possible, nor did his sons take up the profession. His cues are certainly my personal favorite in their designs. After so many years they are still a very pleasing cue for so many people. Not to mention how great they played in their time, and many still do (if cared for).

If a cue maker has a style and is still making a living at it (like say Ernie), then one should not go to the point of "copying" his work. Using a certain inlay style and incorporating it into another style would be different than a "copy" imo as well.

 

[West Point 1987]

Bad example...since Gibson and Fender are selling copies, or to be more correct, re-issues of models that they themselves originally produced. Not the same thing at all.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Okay, fair enough...suppose Gibson went out of business. I want a copy of BB King's Lucille, complete with the inlays in the head stock, same (as close as possible) wood stain/paint job, same old school pickups, etc. I commission the custom shop at another company, like say Yamaha to make it, paying more money than Gibson charged BB King for his Lucille (the replacement one) back in the 1970s. It would be almost exactly like the original, except it would have "Yamaha" instead of "Gibson". I see the appeal of having a custom maker build you a cue that looks exactly like your idol's cue, except it's brand new and maybe even more soundly made. If I had $20k to blow on a Balabushka, more than likely it's less than optimal playing condition, couldn't get it refinished without trashing the investment, and I probably wouldn't play with it.

I don't understand the negative attitude about tributes or copies...if it's a counterfeiter trying to sell something as an authentic SouthWest or whatever, I get it. But having your favorite cue maker clone your favorite cue from the past has a pretty big niche in the market.

 

[Paul Dayton]

Much ado about nothing. So what. If the cue is signed by the maker, what's the problem. I'm building some cues that are of the same design I used in the 60's . the MOP diamonds have different slot sizes, the designs are what was being done at the time by George and Palmer and Paradise, what are they? The building of a cue that is practically the same as an old cue might just be because the builder likes the design. The hobbyist who spends a ton of time making a duplicate of an old cue he admires ought to be congratulated. In the 70's, Szamboti barbells were being done by all the makers out there and no one had a problem with that then, why now? A/C Cobra copies have been in production for decades and no one seems to mind. The best replicas command higher prices than the lesser replicas but none of them comes close to or is confused with the original. Does anyone think today's replica/copy/tribute cue is meant to fool someone into thinking it is an original? Maybe the customer just admires the $50k original and would like a copy. It's how the world works. BTW, OP nice cue.

 

[63Kcode]

A/C Cobra copies have been in production for decades and no one seems to mind. .

Mr. Shelby fought the kit car makers till his dieing day. Now Shelby licensing will send you letters if you try to produce an unlicensed Shelby product. The difference is cues are not worth the trouble to fight. Kit cars are million dollar business.

Larry

 

[macguy]

Lets face it, George's work is the most copied style in all of cue making, by so many different cue makers. If George was still making a living at it, then it would be quite wrong imo, as one could go to him to have a cue made (Just think what George's wait list would be, 10 years would be minutes on his list HA). But that is not possible, nor did his sons take up the profession. His cues are certainly my personal favorite in their designs. After so many years they are still a very pleasing cue for so many people. Not to mention how great they played in their time, and many still do (if cared for).

If a cue maker has a style and is still making a living at it (like say Ernie), then one should not go to the point of "copying" his work. Using a certain inlay style and incorporating it into another style would be different than a "copy" imo as well.

How about SW? There is not a cue maker today not having to some degree a copy of a SW in their line.
I many cases right down to the rings in the butt and the screw.

Put Southwest cue in ebay and see how many "Tributes" come up. Then you have this guy, he even took their name
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...-Curly-Maple-Butt-B100/905550_1060844466.html

 

[desi2960]

i believe, tributes

are made by buildres that are not capable of desiging their own cues ?

 

[macguy]

are made by buildres that are not capable of desiging their own cues ?

No, they are people that are afraid to be different or original. That is very hard and takes a long time. That is the amazing thing about SW. They from the start were original in every concept of the cue right down to the screw. Of course this design was from Kersenbrock but still outside the box. It takes a lot of nerve to be original and you may fail. It is easier to be safe and follow the herd. This is not wrong thinking, you have to give the public what they want. Not so easy to start a new trend.

 

[mia]

The use of the term Tribute Cue is more than suitable and in fact, it's highly appropriate by "definition" of the word and by customary cue-making practices as well.

TRIBUTE......"something you do, or say, or build to show respect and admiration for someone or something; an act or statement of gift that is intended to show gratitude."
[/COLOR]

But you have to also keep this in mind... showing your respect to another maker in the form of a tribute cue is one thing. Adopting that style as your own is another.

Too many people these days say "its a Gus/George/(fill in the blank) tribute". But its one of 80 or 90 Gus/George/Fill in the blank tributes that cuemaker has done.

Skins is onto something with the "one and done" thing. Adopting someone else's style/design and repeating it many times over isn't a 'tribute'. Its just a copy.

 

[DaveK]

Damn, that is a fine slice of common sensi there

Or a case of two wrongs do not make a right.

Dave

 

[mosconiac]

Definatly depends on WHO does it . Jim

^^^ THIS!

If certain cuemakers venture into the "tribute" realm, they are blasted for stealing designs...where a select few cuemakers are applauded for their respectful homage. Some of the latter rarely make anything but a "tribute" cue.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

But you have to also keep this in mind... showing your respect to another maker in the form of a tribute cue is one thing. Adopting that style as your own is another.

Too many people these days say "its a Gus/George/(fill in the blank) tribute". But its one of 80 or 90 Gus/George/Fill in the blank tributes that cuemaker has done.

Skins is onto something with the "one and done" thing. Adopting someone else's style/design and repeating it many times over isn't a 'tribute'. Its just a copy.

Lets say you want a tribute of one of Gus' cues (and lets say you were the first to ask said cue maker), I want one, everyone else wants one, so you think a cue maker should only make one cue for you and no one else? Taking into account it is the customers asking for them.

Sort of a weird way to judge a tribute/copy as wrong or right don't you think?

 

[prewarhero]

are made by buildres that are not capable of desiging their own cues ?

Not even close. Barry is certainly capable of designing their own cues, yet he can make a Gus tribute anytime he likes. Can James White make a Mottey Tribute? Sure he does.

Tribute and copy mean 2 different things. Both can have their merit as to a consumer. Both can be executed well or poorly as skill has nothing to do with the definition here. The only difference between the terms is that a copy is meant to be just that, an exact copy where a tribute is meant to be in the style of an original but not a mark for mark copy.

These words actually do have real meaning behind them that is not open for interpretation. You can debate all day long if a cue is pretty or if it has a place in the cue collector world but debating the meaning of words is tilting at windmills.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Lets say you want a tribute of one of Gus' cues (and lets say you were the first to ask said cue maker), I want one, everyone else wants one, so you think a cue maker should only make one cue for you and no one else? Taking into account it is the customers asking for them.

Sort of a weird way to judge a tribute/copy as wrong or right don't you think?

I believe mia's point is that some makers have made it a habit to do these types of cues...over and over and over again. After a while, it shows a lack of imagination....variety being the spice of life and all.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

I believe mia's point is that some makers have made it a habit to do these types of cues...over and over and over again. After a while, it shows a lack of imagination....variety being the spice of life and all.

But, if you are a true "custom" cue maker that is sort of up to your customers no? A cue maker can't be seen as having a lack of imagination simply because a customer wants something else.