JA vs MD push out after the break match.

[Spimp13]

So again, no response outside of silly rhetorical questions.

Acknowledging the playing conditions were not of his liking =/= making excuses for the loss.

It is not silly or rhetorical. Do you want me to go back and research some of Mike's posts and then get into an indepth discussion about it? Will you pay me for the time it takes to go back and label each post/comment etc? Do you even know what Mike has said on here or in general in the past? Watchez summed it up just fine as well as Justin. There is no need for me to repost what they said. I agree with them for obvious reasons...no need to play the repeater game.

And to add to it, he knew damn well what the conditions were ahead of time and has had success on them in the past.

 

[Cornerman]

If you are referring to the calling out loud every single shot then yes I agree with you...I probably miss read your other post.

No, I'm talking about original 10-ball rules where slop counts.

Here's my viewpoint. I"ve been playing 10-ball longer than most on this board because frankly, 9-balll was the game but I locked onto 10-ball. It's been my number one practice game for over 20 years. I've watched the evolution from playing it like 9-ball where slop counts, (but the runout patterns are more than 11% more difficult) to what I think is an abomination of the game that continues to have changes to the rules including call shot, no 10-ball in X pocket when breaking, pass back, no pass back on safety returns...

If you've got the same length of time with the game, then we've got a discussion. If you don't, then it's tough for me to make a point if you didn't live the same 10-ball like I did. I guess that's the same argument for those that dream of the return of the 2-shot push out rule, the spot every ball rule, the ball-in-hand in balk after the break rule...

 

[SakuJack]

It is not silly or rhetorical.

It is.

Do you want me to go back and research some of Mike's posts and then get into an indepth discussion about it?

Er, no?

Will you pay me for the time it takes to go back and label each post/comment etc?

Yes I'll give you $10k per post. Of course not.

Do you even know what Mike has said on here or in general in the past?

What does it matter? I'm referring to his remarks in this thread, which were entirely reasonable.

Watchez summed it up just fine as well as Justin. There is no need for me to repost what they said. I agree with them for obvious reasons...no need to play the repeater game.

So why respond to my original post?

 

[Spimp13]

It is.



Er, no?



Yes I'll give you $10k per post. Of course not.



What does it matter? I'm referring to his remarks in this thread, which were entirely reasonable.



So why respond to my original post?

I responded to your initial post because I thought it was funny, just after reading JCINs response about telling Mike to stay classy (and yes I read Mike's response). You don't know or care to read on his history on here or just in general so there is no more reason to respond to you. It does matter and it goes back further than just this thread but...since you don't care to check into it you will never know. Sorry for thread derail Mark, wish JA would play this match.

 

[oldzilla]

What is not being considered is Push Out makes each player more offensive in their run outs. I've heard several say that it would be boring because of the safety play. However, think about it, a safety doesn't give you any advantage since your opponent can just Push Out.

In One Foul you have two options, try to make the shot or play safe so your opponent has to kick. This is the only strategy that comes up. In Push Out there's a lot of strategy, but playing safe doesn't win any games so you have to utilize the "Two Way Shot". The two way shot has been taken out of the game with one foul rules. What's perplexing is the "two way shot" is the most skillful shot in pool, and it's been eliminated.

Playing push out doesn't make the game more defensive, it makes it more offensive because players will take chances they would NEVER take playing one foul. In one foul, instead of taking a chance on a tough run out the player will usually opt to just play a lock up safe. Talk about boring.

Hi CJ,
I love the 2-way shot. But shouldn't it be called a 3-way shot? You're playing the ball and position and defense. Thustly every shot we play is a 2-way shot by playing the ball and position. But when you also play it to be a defensive move it becomes a 3-way !
I know it's too technical and would confuse a whole group of people now that they think a 3-way is actually a 2-way. And all this 3-way talk might be too stimulating for some and lose all focus !
Oh well, thats what I think anyway. The teacher is a creature !

 

[satman]

Much as I try.....

I'm guessing you don't even know the rules of call shot. And I"m not saying this because of you, it's because of the inherent rules fiasco when they (the WPA) suggested call shot. That's why there are so many different rule sets. I'm quite sure that whatever rules your Big Dogs do, there is at least one major mod from the WPA rules. That's pretty consistent with all 10-ball tourneys.

And I don't expect an answer about whether you know the rules. If there was an answer, then there would be no issue. But there are issues. That's a fact. Going to no call (when there wasn't any issue) is logical. Your idea of "no brainer" isn't accounting for the difficulties of setting the rules of call shot and the "what if" scenario. ESPN tried it with 9-ball. Fiasco.

Read my other post carefully again.

It's hard to keep up with rules of 8 ball, let alone all the different 9 ball and 10 ball rules. Call shot in 10 ball, may be ok for a Pro event, but overall, I don't care for it. Spectator wise,,, it's bad for the game. No one likes to have someone get lucky against them to win a match, but for the spectators, it's good for pool. I saw Buddy Hall miss a 9 ball, in a match for the finals, so bad into the corner, he made it 2 rails in the side..... Yea, it was strange, but it was also a little excitement for the match. Just like watching a guy get lucky and kick in a ball, then run the next 5 to tie the match on the hill, with maybe making a 9 or 10 ball on the break. Let's not forget, the ultimate goal, is put enough excitement out for the spectators to wanna watch.

 

[CreeDo]

And personally, I think the whole call shot 10-ball is silly.

Maaaan, how can you not like call shot?
When is it ever a good thing when a ball accidentally slops in and it may turn the tide of the match?

I've heard the argument that if a player makes a good hit and gets a ball in, he should be rewarded. But players these days kick so good that they don't count on an act of god to get rewarded, they practice until they can control which side of the ball they hit. Then they call the most likely pocket "just in case".

That's hands down better than having my kick go off another ball into a pocket I never predicted, and now you're stuck fading my lucky roll.

Without this basic major difference, 10b really might as well be 9b with 1 more ball.

 

[Cornerman]

Without this basic major difference, 10b really might as well be 9b with 1 more ball.

That's pretty much a good thing in my book. And I snuck in one of those posts, the 10-ball runout is more than just 11% more difficult. The middle of the table is taken away (even if you break like Shane), making a ball isn't a wired proposition (even if you break like Shane).

The beauty of 10-ball was that it played like a different game, but it was still a rotation game that had a single money ball. Very understandable but with additional skill requirements. So playing it just like 9-ball is exactly understandable. Just like if you played 6-ball and eventually if we go to 11-ball.

Call shot on 10-ball game was a silly proposition and it's proven itself to be that. It wasn't broken.

 

[Ratta]

No offense intended, but I actually laughed out loud at this statement. I don't know what rules anyone is playing in pool halls in Germany (for 10-ball) but there's a pretty good bet they're not the same as what people are using in the States. Even in the States, Predator Tour vs GSBT vs Dominiak 10-ball Tour vs TAR matches... there is no "rules have always been."

And personally, I think the whole call shot 10-ball is silly. I've been playing 10-ball for coming up on 25 years and there are more rule changes in the last 5 that I can't tell whether I actually am winning or losing. And that's a serious statement. (Guy makes the 10-ball and has to look around to get some kind of acknowledgement whether he won, spots, reracks, fouled...)

Freddie <~~~ needs bucket pool. Then fouls will make sense.

No offense taken buddy

Here in germany the rules are very clear defined- there is no *this or that rule*. In the leagues is played everywhere the same rule. No matter if it s 8b, 9b. 10b or straight-pool. Just the length of the sets are different.

2nd and 1st leagure furthermore need to play with referee on league-day. The *Home Team* has to take care that referee s are guaranteed-if not......they have to rent 4 refs for money!

And about 10ball- i know 10ball just with call-shot. So i cannot speak about any other variation of it But in my opinion it s the right way (just my personal opinion).


It s always the player who has the power to change something-- the players have to standup what they want to have. Just crying and whining will change nothing. No matter what. They can destroy everything-or they can try to change something.
I m not very familar with the usa-league systems. sounds sometimes *a bit* strange.
As cornerman and other guys have said, too many variations of rules around there. Really not understandable for me. That s self-produced chaos.

 

[markgw]

why not just tighten the pockets back up and this push out talk will go away.people want to see the better player win not the better breaker.

If you are saying Shane was the better breaker and Mike was the better player then we watched 2 different matches. Shane dominates Mike in every area by far!! Shotmaking, position play, safety play, kicking and attitude..Shane practices more than everyone so why should he have to be punished. This same complaint was happening 25 years ago when Archer and Strickland had huge breaks. People just need to work on the weak aspects of their game and shut up......

 

[jhanso18]

Am I the only person here thinking that JA playin MD, is stealing no matter what they play? Mike D. can't beat JA at any game in a longer set I'm thinking. The only motivation for Mike to play is pride. If he can some how win, it would bump his pride up a bit???

I'm not really sure why Johnny doesn't want some free money.


Either way, still sitting here hoping they play!

best,

Justin

 

[markgw]

Am I the only person here thinking that JA playin MD, is stealing no matter what they play? Mike D. can't beat JA at any game in a longer set I'm thinking. The only motivation for Mike to play is pride. If he can some how win, it would bump his pride up a bit???

I'm not really sure why Johnny doesn't want some free money.


Either way, still sitting here hoping they play!

best,

Justin

If MD is thinking of playing Archer he's hot at his bankroll and should seek management:wink:

 

[bfdlad]

Just had a thought on this whole push out after the first shot and what it could lead to. If I was really nervous of letting my opponet in after the break I may start breaking like a 1 pocket break, the one pocket break where you go at the pack off the side rail with bottom left and stick the cueball into the side of the rack or try like a snooker break. This would not make a ball most likely but put my opponent in a tough spot. This may lead to long saftey bouts at the begining and could get boring because if it works player will keep doing it the same thing over and over with probably the same results. What you think of that CJ? I have never played this game and never seen it played either so just maybe thinking too much on it.

 

[satman]

I think you got the wrong idea about this

Just had a thought on this whole push out after the first shot and what it could lead to. If I was really nervous of letting my opponet in after the break I may start breaking like a 1 pocket break, the one pocket break where you go at the pack off the side rail with bottom left and stick the cueball into the side of the rack or try like a snooker break. This would not make a ball most likely but put my opponent in a tough spot. This may lead to long saftey bouts at the begining and could get boring because if it works player will keep doing it the same thing over and over with probably the same results. What you think of that CJ? I have never played this game and never seen it played either so just maybe thinking too much on it.

The mandatory push after the break, allows your opponent to choose if he wants to shoot the shot, or pass it back to you. Just like "having the option" to push out now, but it's mandatory. Not too many makeable shots will be pushed out, just like they do now. Most push out's either produce an option to play safe, or tie up a ball and leave a difficult shot. Either way, your opponent has an option to get to the table every game, and there are no packages run by simply breaking well.

 

[watchez]

except Mark you have to hit the one ball first to be a legal break

the break would be like when you play 6 ball - you would hit the cue ball slightly harder than lag speed at the rack. it would be a dumb game that no one would watch

 

[krupa]

Call shot on 10-ball game was a silly proposition and it's proven itself to be that. It wasn't broken.

With all due respect, you assert that call shot is "silly" or bad, but you're not really backing up that assertion. What is it about called shot that is bad? What does or doesn't happen that shouldn't or should happen?

I'm not trying to challenge you or argue for the other POV, I'm just trying to understand your argument.

Thanks
-matthew

 

[bfdlad]

except Mark you have to hit the one ball first to be a legal break

the break would be like when you play 6 ball - you would hit the cue ball slightly harder than lag speed at the rack. it would be a dumb game that no one would watch

Watchez, That is where my idea fails. Obvious shit sometimes goes right by me, I keep looking for the difficult stuff. You are right, please all Ignor my thoughts on the break.

 

[Cornerman]

With all due respect, you assert that call shot is "silly" or bad, but you're not really backing up that assertion. What is it about called shot that is bad? What does or doesn't happen that shouldn't or should happen?

I'm not trying to challenge you or argue for the other POV, I'm just trying to understand your argument.

Thanks
-matthew

The onset of call shot in 10-ball (or 9-ball for that matter) had immediate ramifications on the "what if" scenarios. If you find tapes of certain ESPN 9-ball tourney that first started going "Call the 9-ball" for example, immediately the "what if the 9-ball goes but I didn't call it" scenario reared its head. And the result was a confused ruling since the multitude of possibilities all made sense and nonsense at the same time.

When rules makers drafted up more what if scenarios (Rules 9.5-9.7 I suppose in WPA 10-ball), the end result is three or four additional rules that now take the game into a completely different ... "game" than the original 10-ball rotation with a pyramid break and single money ball.

What if... you call a safe and drop a ball.
What if... you are kicking after a safety, don't call a ball, but luck in a ball.
What if... you are kicking after a safety, don't calla ball, but luck a safe.
What if... you only drop the 10-ball, didn't call it....

I mean, there are answers presently to all of these "what ifs," but now there are so many "what ifs" that the game is no longer the game I grew up with. And even right now, there are disagreements across the U.S. when and how to implement these rules (lots of bodies are picking and choosing which "what ifs" belong). Isn't it a bit at odds that you're allowed to luck a safety when kicking (opponent can't pass back) but you are "penalized" if you luck a safety AND luck in a ball on the same shot when kicking under the current rules (opponent has the option to pass it back and you get nothing)?

And having slop wasn't broken. If it was, 9-ball apparently is broken. And who's making 9-ball changes??? Why wouldn't we go ahead and make changes to 9-ball since its still a slop game??? We won't be making to the slop portion to 9-ball I think.

I think what many "new to 10-ball" people aren't seeing possibly is that 10-ball was already established. They already had professional tournaments. Changing the rules so drastically (and that's my point.... the rules are changed so much that the game isn't the same anymore) is IMO silly.

Similarly, the 7-ball game established 30 years ago, televised and such ... suddenly ESPN has their own ESPN 7-ball that is a different game than the 7-ball from 30 years ago. I think that ESPN abomination was silly, too.

Freddie

 

[Paul Schofield]

Pro pool is backing itself right into a corner. Rules are fragile. Every change has unintended consequences. You better know what they are before you implement them. Look at where the pros are going: 10 foot tables, tighter pockets, calling balls, Ten-Ball, and now under discussion is a mandatory push after the break.

I like post #158 by JCN. How can his experience be ignored. Look at post #169. Pro pool is irrelevant.

Pro pool is becoming increasingly tedious. Is this a path to popularity?

 

[krupa]

The onset of call shot in 10-ball (or 9-ball for that matter) had immediate ramifications on the "what if" scenarios. If you find tapes of certain ESPN 9-ball tourney that first started going "Call the 9-ball" for example, immediately the "what if the 9-ball goes but I didn't call it" scenario reared its head. And the result was a confused ruling since the multitude of possibilities all made sense and nonsense at the same time.

When rules makers drafted up more what if scenarios (Rules 9.5-9.7 I suppose in WPA 10-ball), the end result is three or four additional rules that now take the game into a completely different ... "game" than the original 10-ball rotation with a pyramid break and single money ball.

What if... you call a safe and drop a ball.
What if... you are kicking after a safety, don't call a ball, but luck in a ball.
What if... you are kicking after a safety, don't calla ball, but luck a safe.
What if... you only drop the 10-ball, didn't call it....

I mean, there are answers presently to all of these "what ifs," but now there are so many "what ifs" that the game is no longer the game I grew up with. And even right now, there are disagreements across the U.S. when and how to implement these rules (lots of bodies are picking and choosing which "what ifs" belong). Isn't it a bit at odds that you're allowed to luck a safety when kicking (opponent can't pass back) but you are "penalized" if you luck a safety AND luck in a ball on the same shot when kicking under the current rules (opponent has the option to pass it back and you get nothing)?

And having slop wasn't broken. If it was, 9-ball apparently is broken. And who's making 9-ball changes??? Why wouldn't we go ahead and make changes to 9-ball since its still a slop game??? We won't be making to the slop portion to 9-ball I think.

I think what many "new to 10-ball" people aren't seeing possibly is that 10-ball was already established. They already had professional tournaments. Changing the rules so drastically (and that's my point.... the rules are changed so much that the game isn't the same anymore) is IMO silly.

Similarly, the 7-ball game established 30 years ago, televised and such ... suddenly ESPN has their own ESPN 7-ball that is a different game than the 7-ball from 30 years ago. I think that ESPN abomination was silly, too.

Freddie

Thanks! I really appreciate that you took the time to answer so completely. Now I have some thinking to do.