JA vs MD push out after the break match.

krupa said:
Thanks! I really appreciate that you took the time to answer so completely. Now I have some thinking to do. :)
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Thanks. Thanks for doing some thinking, too!

On the surface, calling shots seems right. I'd love it if there was an implementation that also seems right. I just at this stage don't see the "right" in it for rotation games without unintended and serious consequences to the game (for the players and for the spectators).

Freddie <~~~ one man's opinion
 
Cornerman said:
Isn't it a bit at odds that you're allowed to luck a safety when kicking (opponent can't pass back) but you are "penalized" if you luck a safety AND luck in a ball on the same shot when kicking under the current rules (opponent has the option to pass it back and you get nothing)?



Freddie
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Whoa! Wait a second. Are you gonna sit there and try to tell me that when Bustamante and Shaw were at an im passé for twenty minutes about this rule during a live paid stream that this wasn't good for pool???

They were an inch from a no contest and that would have REALLY been a grand slam.
 
Cornerman said:
I mean, there are answers presently to all of these "what ifs," but now there are so many "what ifs" that the game is no longer the game I grew up with.
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Is it possible this is the gist of what bugs you? They changed a game you grew up with?

For those of us who didn't grow up with 10b, the call shot, passback, etc. don't feel like someone scrambed to fix a bunch of arbitrarily changed rules. It's just... "Here's this cool new game, and here are the rules for how it's played".

And even right now, there are disagreements across the U.S. when and how to implement these rules
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Yeah but that's the sad state of all of pool. Look at 8 ball.

And having slop wasn't broken. If it was, 9-ball apparently is broken. And who's making 9-ball changes???
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Lots of people!

It's broken that someone can win the game on the break, especially if the rack is gapped a certain way that sends the 9 into the corner. So plenty of tournaments came up with "9 doesn't count on the bottom two corners."

It's broken (in some people's minds, I don't agree) that a tight rack delivers a wired wing ball on the break.
So they changed the rules to require breaking from the box.

It's broken that someone can shit in the 9 after choking and missing it.
So they made a rule that you must call the 9 (even if you call nothing else).

LOTS of guys have been unhappy with the amount of slop and luck in 9b and have made rules to 'fix' it.

You can argue it's less fun, but it's unquestionably more fair to have called shots.
 
CreeDo said:
You can argue it's less fun, but it's unquestionably more fair to have called shots.
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I vote for fun. Call nothing in any short game!

Take a good lesson from highly successfully sports. They don't call anything. The right amount of luck makes for a good and exciting game.

Everyone over analyzes all of this. Fun is what works.
 
Luxury said:
Whoa! Wait a second. Are you gonna sit there and try to tell me that when Bustamante and Shaw were at an im passé for twenty minutes about this rule during a live paid stream that this wasn't good for pool???

They were an inch from a no contest and that would have REALLY been a grand slam.
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Your post is going to get missed by people. So, I'll quote it!!
 
Well, here we are again on slop vs. no-slop. I've stated my view on this many times. Here it is again.

No, you can't totally eliminate the luck element, but you can try to minimize it. The purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; a 10-on-the-break for a win is disgusting.

People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure that everyone who has played a lot has both won and lost a ton of matches because of purely lucky shots -- 9-ball or 10-ball on the break or slopping in a key ball. A loss that way is agonizing. A win that way is less than fulfilling. It's so easy to eliminate some of the game's pernicious luck.

And with WPA 10-ball rules, they have done so.
 
The worst thing about 9/10 Ball is your opponent missing and hooking you a few times

Cornerman said:
Thanks. Thanks for doing some thinking, too!

On the surface, calling shots seems right. I'd love it if there was an implementation that also seems right. I just at this stage don't see the "right" in it for rotation games without unintended and serious consequences to the game (for the players and for the spectators).

Freddie <~~~ one man's opinion
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Yes, I agree, straight "Call Pocket" is a bad game. It takes away the "two way shots," and encourages more safety play (because your opponent can't "luck in" a kick shot). It also doesn't fix the situation when a player misses and hooks his opponent, which is usually just bad luck.

When I ran the Professional Cue Sports Association we had call pocket rules playing 9 Ball with two way shots allowed if called and one, two way safe a game (where you could shoot at a bank, for instance and call safe too...basically a "free shot").

We also had the most important rule that the player coming to the table also had the option to make their opponent shoot again except on a "called safety". These rules were very well received and put a lot more skill into the game. The worst thing about 9/10 Ball is your opponent missing and hooking you a few times in a set....this is a truly unfortunate way to lose.
 
bfdlad said:
So I was chatting a little with Archer on the phone about the Shane Vs Mike TAR match. JA said he would love to play Mike even for as much as he wanted at either 9-Ball or 10-Ball BUT the only rule was push out after the break. I was just kinda wondering about how that would change the game. If it would be a good game, would it separate the men from the boys so to speak and who would win.
So what do you guys think of that format? I guess it would give everyone a chance at the table.
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Is Archer saying his break is not as good as Dechaine's? I don't see that, at least not enough to matter.

I would not mind maybe an alternate break format, or even 3 breaks for each player, similar to how they rotate the server in tennis.

Now that I think about it, 3 breaks for each player may be a good way to go in a longer match, it gives the audience a chance to at least see a 3 rack break and run, and should help a bit in preventing what Shane has done in a few matches.
 
Cornerman said:
Your post is going to get missed by people. So, I'll quote it!!
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The Bustamante/Shaw situation was unfortunate. But I view it as a simple failure of "match direction," not an example of why it's absurd to have different rules in different events. By match direction, I mean Accu-Stats and/or Sandcastle Billiards. The rules should have been clearly established before the match with the participation of a match director and then enforced by a match director/referee. The players seemed to have a disagreement on what had been decided in advance. Why wasn't there a third party -- the event director -- to step in and say "here's what we agreed on"? It should have taken 30 seconds, not many minutes.
 
CJ Wiley said:
The worst thing about 9/10 Ball is your opponent missing and hooking you a few times in a set....this is a truly unfortunate way to lose.
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I respectfully disagree. The worst thing about Nine and Ten-Ball is that they are too hard for 95% of the people who play pool to even play.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, I agree, straight "Call Pocket" is a bad game. It takes away the "two way shots," and encourages more safety play (because your opponent can't "luck in" a kick shot). It also doesn't fix the situation when a player misses and hooks his opponent, which is usually just bad luck.

When I ran the Professional Cue Sports Association we had call pocket rules playing 9 Ball with two way shots allowed if called and one, two way safe a game (where you could shoot at a bank, for instance and call safe too...basically a "free shot").

We also had the most important rule that the player coming to the table also had the option to make their opponent shoot again except on a "called safety". These rules were very well received and put a lot more skill into the game. The worst thing about 9/10 Ball is your opponent missing and hooking you a few times in a set....this is a truly unfortunate way to lose.
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The league I play in, USAPL, has very similar rules, aside from the "miss and hook the other guy" issue. I wish more places and tournaments played this way.

I had to watch a guy I played in a tournament finals miss 4 balls in one rack and make them all in, the first game he missed his shot, put me in the pocket opening, with a ball between the one ball. On the hill-hill game, he missed the 7, it banked off the points into the opposite corner pocket. Guy missed about 10 shots in 5 games and won because every time he missed, he either made it into another pocket or hooked me. I asked him to play some for cash with called shot rules after that, which he very nicely ignored.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Yes, I agree, straight "Call Pocket" is a bad game. It takes away the "two way shots," and encourages more safety play (because your opponent can't "luck in" a kick shot). It also doesn't fix the situation when a player misses and hooks his opponent, which is usually just bad luck.
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The WPA 10-ball rules do not eliminate 2-way shots of the normal type, where you play to pocket a ball but leave the CB safe in the event of a miss. They do eliminate the type of 2-way shot where you play to pocket either of two OB's, because you must designate the (single) intended ball when attempting to pocket a ball.

Nor do WPA 10-ball rules eliminate the slopped safety (miss a shot and land safe). The Predator Tour rules extend the WPA rules to give the incoming player the pass-back option on a slopped safety. This does eliminate the normal type of 2-way shots.

The worst thing about 9/10 Ball is your opponent missing and hooking you a few times in a set....this is a truly unfortunate way to lose.
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Yes it is. But the loss is not as immediate nor as certain as with a slopped 9/10 ball that counts (or any other slopped ball that leads directly to a win for the slopper).
 
Despite popular belief you can please the players if you include them

AtLarge said:
The WPA 10-ball rules do not eliminate 2-way shots of the normal type, where you play to pocket a ball but leave the CB safe in the event of a miss. They do eliminate the type of 2-way shot where you play to pocket either of two OB's, because you must designate the (single) intended ball when attempting to pocket a ball.

Nor do WPA 10-ball rules eliminate the slopped safety (miss a shot and land safe). The Predator Tour rules extend the WPA rules to give the incoming player the pass-back option on a slopped safety. This does eliminate the normal type of 2-way shots.



Yes it is. But the loss is not as immediate nor as certain as with a slopped 9/10 ball that counts (or any other slopped ball that leads directly to a win for the slopper).
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Yeah, the rules I described are better for the skill level of the players. Those rules were designed by George Breedlove, Earl Strickland, myself and a few others, and they weren't complained about at all during my tournaments.

Despite popular belief you can please the players if you include them and the decisions are based on true desire to enhance the game. All Pro's can tell if the promoter cares, and if they play themselves, or not. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Lazy.
 
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