Jasmin Suspended

?????????

I sincerely hope Jasmin wins her appeal. I think the punisment is far to severe. If there were no scheduling conflicts no problem. I think Rackmsuckr made a good post an to the point. We have our very own AZHousepro on the board an hoping the decision on appeal will be more to the liking of Jasmin an her broad fan base. Jasmin is a phenom an its only going to get better, lets not hold back this player. The only thing I can say is go Jasmin.............................
Pinocchio
I callem like I seeum an this ones Brutality!
 
JoeyInCali said:
For being too pretty or good or both?

lmaorof.gif
lollol.gif
 
J. Learned Hand said:
So, let me get this straight...the WPBA is sanctioning Jasmin for choosing to compete at arguably the highest level against top competition in an effort to further her sport? This seems ludicrous. While I can understand that she, as a member of the WPBA, should abide by the rules of the organization, I cannot understand how the WPBA would sanction her for choosing to challenge herself and also attempting to set a milestone for women worldwide.

Does the WPBA own the players?

Do the rules of the WPBA state that women cannot play anywhere in the world, except on the tour they provide?

Maybe I'm wrong and the WPBA should control the players to the point of indentured servitude. After all, slavery was right, wasn't it? (ABSOLUTELY NOT)

The WPBA has got it wrong here and has a lot of nerve to say she cannot play against the men in the WPA events!

Didn't Annika play on the PGA Tour with the men? Did the LPGA Tour sanction her and make her sit out any events? Maybe the WPBA is bigger than the LPGA and maybe they feel like the LPGA and the rest of the world can learn from their glowing example of how to treat a player!

No, they are sanctioning her for choosing another event when they had an event going on at the same time. It's part of their rules that the top players are not allowed to miss events except with permission from the board.

I imagine that the LPGA would have sanctioned Anika if she missed a LPGA event to participate in another event IF that is part of their rules.

The WPBA is not saying that women cannot play in men's events. They are saying that their top women should play in their events WHEN there is a conflicting date. That's all.

The same thing would apply for example if Jasmin had an exhibition scheduled at the same time as a WPBA event. If the board didn't grant her a waiver to miss the event then she would face a sanction.

Somebody made the point of how it would be if the top ten players skipped a WPBA event. The sponsors of the event, having been promised the top players as a draw, would naturally feel quite slighted and probably withdraw their support in subsequent years.

The WPBA is THE ONLY truly functioning professional tour on American soil. It is the longest running professional tour in the world.

Before we start knocking them we should look at what they built and applaud the fact that no single player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the tour itself.

Jasmin's stated goal is to be the best pool player in the world. With such a goal she knows full well that she can't always have it both ways. When she chooses to participate in conflicting events she is not doing it to further the cause of women's pool as her first motivation, she is doing it to further her own skills and hone her skills towards her goal.

She is a professional who understands the rules and surely did what she could to get the blessing of the WPBA. We however are lacking information and as such we should withhold judgment.
 
Congrats WPBA, you just suspended the best thing you have going for your tour and also shot yourself in the foot with alot of fans too. WTG!
 
JB Cases said:
She is a professional who understands the rules and surely did what she could to get the blessing of the WPBA. We however are lacking information and as such we should withhold judgment.

I agree totally.

Being a pro by nature gives you the decision or choice to affiliate yourself with professional associations, fine print and all. Once you submit yourself, you will be subjected to rules and regulations that is expected of a pro under the banner. Perhaps Jasmin has to learn from that error.

On the other hand, if at all, the WPBA should examine how they can motivate players to stay within their care. Amendments should always be a tool for progress (Unlike the WPA new rule that demotivates playrs and limits progress).

I hope that the WPBA works this out in the right direction and be an example to the WPA in humbling themselves to be loved more by the players.
 
Not a smart move. The Wpba needs Jasmine more than Jasmine needs them. Unlike the other women, she can win anywhere.

Just my humble opinion.
 
jay helfert said:
She played in one tournament so suspend her for one tournament. Quid pro pro. If she does it again, break her thumbs.:)

Not so long ago, many of the the women were crossing lines set by the WPBA to play in the IPT, including board members. Who sat in judgement of them? I must not have heard about those suspensions.

This is what's called selective enforcement of the rules.
Well said Jay. I can't help but believe there may be some jealousy involved in this decision to punish Jasmin. They should look at what Jasmin adds to their tour and spectator interest before they suspend her from 2 tournaments.
 
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mnorwood said:
In a word. Ridiculous!!!! If Jasmine started winning male tournaments on a regular basis it would be a great thing for the game.

This goes to show that the leadership of this game doesn't have a shred of vision.

This had to be done for the integrity of the WPBA tour. She broke the rules so she got spanked for it. Letting it slide would open the door to allow anyone to skip an event.

Since we're not on the board, we don't know how this all went down, but based on the decision I'm guessing she petitioned, was declined, skipped the tournament anyway and is now upset that she got grounded.
 
Johnnyt said:
I see the Jasmin was suspended and is appealing. Johnnyt

If the WPBA's bylaws were very explicit about this, then I can understand the suspension (if that also was explicit as a repercussion). Otherwise, I believe it is capricious and should be rescinded.
 
When two of this forum's finest posters, both of them good friends of mine, raise a matter as important as the IPT's initial conflict with the WPBA schedule, I can't help but dig into the subject.

jay helfert said:
...Not so long ago, many of the the women were crossing lines set by the WPBA to play in the IPT, including board members. Who sat in judgement of them? I must not have heard about those suspensions. This is what's called selective enforcement of the rules.

Williebetmore said:
sjm,
I wonder if your confidence is warranted. The IPT episode a couple of years ago seemed to indicate that the better women players will jump ship at the prospect of big money. The board's acceptance of WPBA players competing in the IPT definitely weakens their appearance of authority; and calls into question their consistency. Rather than sticking to their policy during the IPT, they now proceed into an area where their motives will need to be questioned.

Why suspend Jasmine and not all of the women who competed in the IPT event that overlapped the Peoria WPBA tournament??? Though I heard that they received exemptions; I believe that many stated their intention to play before that decision; whether exemptions were received or not. Should those players not have been suspended? What are their criteria for allowing players to play in competing events???

OK, let's take a closer look.

As the IPT emerged, I recall thinking that the WPBA would be hard pressed to deny IPT waivers requested when such participation offered greater prestige and prize money to a participant than playing in a WPBA event, even when events conflicted.

And, sure enough, one year later, it came to pass that two events were concurrent, and it was known long in advance that they would be concurrent (in fact, after checking with Peg Ledman that the WPBA event date was firm, I booked my vacation, which included attending the WPBA event).

IPT North American Open
8-Ball Championship The Venetian
Las Vegas, Nevada
July 22 - 30, 2006

WPBA Midwest Classic
Par-a-Dice Hotel and Casino
East Peoria, Illinois
July 27-30, 2006

Actually, I attended both events, leaving Las Vegas on the Wednesday morning (July 26), four days prior to completion of the IPT event, and flew to Peoria to attend the WPBA Midwest Classic, which began the very next day. In fact, several WPBA players that had already been eliminated from the IPT event were on my plane from Nevada to Illinois.

Many WPBA players had requested waivers to play in that 2006 IPT event that coincided with the WPBA event and the waivers were granted without exception. I recall agreeing with this decision, even though the IPT was a competing tour and was, undeniably, a potential threat to the vitality of the WPBA tour, which might have lost its biggest headliners if the IPT venture had delivered the riches Kevin Trudeau had promised. I agreed with the WPBA decision to grant waivers on the grounds that the IPT tour was more prestigious and offered more prize money than the WPBA tour, though it caneasily be argued that there should have been a provision barring IPT participation whenever it conflicted with the WPBA schedule.

In light of the WPBA case history, it strikes me as most unusual that Jasmin's request for a waiver in the World Ten Ball Championship wasn't granted, given that she wanted to play in a WPA event that couldn't possibly be construed as competing with any WPBA event(s). Just like that IPT event in the summer of 2006, the 2008 WTBC was more prestigious and offered more prize money than the WPBA event.

Mind you, I am big on WPBA player members living by the rules and I fully understand the actions taken. I understand the exclusivity subject inside and out, and agree with strict enforcement of the player contract. If Jasmin played in the WTBC when her request for a waiver was denied, then I agree she broke the rules and should be penalized.

Obviously, the WPBA can't, as a rule, grant waivers to players wishing to play in events that coincide with WPBA events, but I'd suggest that a WPA World Championship event should constitute an exception. I just can't quite work out what principles the organization stood for in the denial of Jasmin's waiver, given that there is already precedent for permitting participation in a non-WPBA event in a similar situation.

In other words, Jay and Williebetmore, you make very valid points. No doubt, the WPBA Board will have to debate the matter at length.
 
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edd said:
If the WPBA's bylaws were very explicit about this, then I can understand the suspension (if that also was explicit as a repercussion). Otherwise, I believe it is capricious and should be rescinded.

The problem with these threads (WPBA related punishments), is that we never get to hear both sides of the issue. It seems that the WPBA has some kind of gag order on releasing details about their thought process.

Was there ever any public statement made by them about the Ellerby-Chen elbowing incident a few months ago? As I recall, it just involved a lot of hearsay and speculation, and never reached a conclusion. (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

If I recall there was a reluctance for any WPBA members on here to make any comment at all for fear of punishment.

As I read this thread, I hope the best for Jasmin, and hope that she is allowed to play until the appeal is resolved, but without hearing both sides, it's really hard to make a judgement here. Has anyone seen any statement from the WPBA on this?
 
I believe we are going to see more of the women going to play in other events with the top ten women so strong that the major money is spread out to them tournament after tournament. Allison Fisher and Karen Corr make about one third to a half what they made just a few years ago because the champions keep coming and coming from other countries.

I think that the WPBA needs to come up with a major sponsor and/or change the purse structure so at least the dozen best can make a living for their talent (from $40K to $80K at least). I don't know what the pay-offs should be but no one should get paid to come in 40 ? 64 IMO. I know that's rough on the players that hardly ever finish in the top 25 but if they can't, they need to practice more or find another job. There are players that are good on regional tours but are not close to good enough to make any money on the WPBA Tour. There are players that have been on the tour for 15-20 years that can't cut it anymore for a lot of reasons, mostly that the top women are so much better today.

I know getting sponsorships to run a tour is very hard to come by and the WPBA does a good job at it?better than most if not all tours, but sadly it's not enough?players have to make a living. Don't forget, most travel on there own dime. You have to subtract that from their winnings. It's nice to see people like Karen Corr make 75K a year, but how muck did she spend to make it? Maybe 30K. Johnnyt
 
WPBA players/members - please comment

Seems we're playing horseshoes in the dark here and some toes are getting bruised.

need more info please


If comments on contractual obligations are forbidden, that would be good to know also.


WHADDUP????????? :confused:
 
sputnik said:
I agree totally.

Being a pro by nature gives you the decision or choice to affiliate yourself with professional associations, fine print and all. Once you submit yourself, you will be subjected to rules and regulations that is expected of a pro under the banner. Perhaps Jasmin has to learn from that error.

On the other hand, if at all, the WPBA should examine how they can motivate players to stay within their care. Amendments should always be a tool for progress (Unlike the WPA new rule that demotivates playrs and limits progress).

I hope that the WPBA works this out in the right direction and be an example to the WPA in humbling themselves to be loved more by the players.

Are you saying that Jasmin "subjecting herself" to the WPBA's rules is an "error"?

Say what you want but the WPBA has been a CONSISTENT tour for women professionals to COUNT ON for more than 20 years. That makes the tour itself bigger than any player no matter what their status.

What makes you think that the WPBA should humble themselves to be "more loved" by the players?

The WPBA is first and foremost a player's tour that is OWNED by the players themselves. The players vote on matters of importance and they vote on the board members.

They aren't perfect certainly but they don't need to humble themselves to be loved by themselves. The WPA in contrast does not have one single professional player on it's board. The WPA also does not "have" players as members. I find the comparison to be out of line.

The WPBA needs to do exactly what it has been doing to motivate players, which is to put on tournaments in a consistent manner and hold everyone to the same standard. There are no walk-ons to be a WPBA professional, all players have to qualify the same way. The only way to get to the top of the WPBA rankings is to play your way there.

You might be the next great thing but if you don't play by the same rules that all the other women have to follow then you don't get to play and it's that simple. There should not be and never will be a "Jasmin" rule and I am equally certain that Jasmin expects no preferential treatment.

However I think that the punishment is too severe. Making a person miss two events after she already missed on willfully is idiotic in my book. I don't know if this is a standard punishment for such an offense or if it is especially harsh because of the situation.

In any case though I do agree with you that perhaps it's time for the WPBA to take a look at how best to serve their players who do want to test themselves against the men. Perhaps WPBA Players ought to get a "whatever" exemption for one tournament a year. If they use it then there are no questions asked they can skip an event. I don't know.

In any case Jassy will have to work extra hard in the coming year to top the ranking list. Perhaps her answer will be to win all the rest of the events. Should be interesting.
 
sjm said:
When two of this forum's finest posters, both of them good friends of mine, raise a matter as important as the IPT's initial conflict with the WPBA schedule, I can't help but dig into the subject.





OK, let's take a closer look.

As the IPT emerged, I recall thinking that the WPBA would be hard pressed to deny IPT waivers requested when such participation offered greater prestige and prize money to a participant than playing in a WPBA event, even when events conflicted.

And, sure enough, one year later, it came to pass that two events were concurrent, and it was known long in advance that they would be concurrent (in fact, after checking with Peg Ledman that the WPBA event date was firm, I booked my vacation, which included attending the WPBA event).

IPT North American Open
8-Ball Championship The Venetian
Las Vegas, Nevada
July 22 - 30, 2006

WPBA Midwest Classic
Par-a-Dice Hotel and Casino
East Peoria, Illinois
July 27-30, 2006

Actually, I attended both events, leaving Las Vegas on the Wednesday morning (July 26), four days prior to completion of the IPT event, and flew to Peoria to attend the WPBA Midwest Classic, which began the very next day. In fact, several WPBA players that had already been eliminated from the IPT event were on my plane from Nevada to Illinois.

Many WPBA players had requested waivers to play in that 2006 IPT event that coincided with the WPBA event and the waivers were granted without exception. I recall agreeing with this decision, even though the IPT was a competing tour and was, undeniably, a potential threat to the vitality of the WPBA tour, which might have lost its biggest headliners if the IPT venture had delivered the riches Kevin Trudeau had promised. I agreed with the WPBA decision to grant waivers on the grounds that the IPT tour was more prestigious and offered more prize money than the WPBA tour, though it caneasily be argued that there should have been a provision barring IPT participation whenever it conflicted with the WPBA schedule.

In light of the WPBA case history, it strikes me as most unusual that Jasmin's request for a waiver in the World Ten Ball Championship wasn't granted, given that she wanted to play in a WPA event that couldn't possibly be construed as competing with any WPBA event(s). Just like that IPT event in the summer of 2006, the 2008 WTBC was more prestigious and offered more prize money than the WPBA event.

Mind you, I am big on WPBA player members living by the rules and I fully understand the actions taken. I understand the exclusivity subject inside and out, and agree with strict enforcement of the player contract. If Jasmin played in the WTBC when her request for a waiver was denied, then I agree she broke the rules and should be penalized.

Obviously, the WPBA can't, as a rule, grant waivers to players wishing to play in events that coincide with WPBA events, but I'd suggest that a WPA World Championship event should constitute an exception. I just can't quite work out what principles the organization stood for in the denial of Jasmin's waiver, given that there is already precedent for permitting participation in a non-WPBA event in a similar situation.

In other words, Jay and Williebetmore, you make very valid points. No doubt, the WPBA Board will have to debate the matter at length.


Thanks for doing the research Stu. In case law, this would seal the deal. I hope that Jasmin refers to this previous "conflict of interest" in her appeal.

Remember the WPBT is only eight tournaments a year, very much a part time tour (and a part time job). A woman who is trying to make a living from pool should be able to pursue her dream wherever it takes her. And by the way, there were two other women who played in the WTBC. Shin Mei Liu from Japan and the lady from Taiwan who is the current world champion.

From the responses on here, it appears that we are leaning maybe ten to one for Jasmin on this issue. And we are the hard core pool fans who most strenuously support the game. That should tell you something when the real pool fans speak out against something.

One other point I would like to make. Jasmin's match with Thomas Engert may have done more for women's pool internationally then any other match a women has played EVER! It was watched (on ESPN STAR ASIA) by literally millions of people in 35 countries. Jasmin proved conclusively that a woman can compete on equal terms with the top men players in pool.

If this sport is to ever have a real future with real money, then it will be by heading in this direction. Trudeau had one thing right in his equation, let the women play! Our sport is unique in that there is no reason why women can't compete right alongside the men. I still dream of major events with 64 players and sixteen are top women. You might be surprised at the outcome, many would win matches and a few might go deep. Now that would be a Tour worthy of national and international recognition, and major media coverage!

Fatboy, I need your help!
 
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SJM,

I understand that there was a lot of backchannel negotiations going on between the "WPBA" and the "IPT" to facilitate the allowance of the women to participate in the overlapping IPT event. In that instance the decision was made due to conversation between entities not just at the request of the players involved.

In this situation it's a player who knew she didn't have a waiver who decided to forgo the event entirely. I think that the WPBA should have granted her the waiver but perhaps by not doing so they were sending a message to the WTBC that they should have invited the rest of the WPBA's top players as well. I don't think that's entirely out of the realm of possibility.
 
travel costs are probably on the low side

Johnny,

Your travel costs are probably very much on the low side. It has always cost a lot of dollars to stay on the road. I hit the road hard one year, at the end of the year I had churned a lot of money but paid it all out to stay on the road. I had to admit I was better off swinging a much smaller loop. I suspect over 90% of the unsponsored WPBA players are in the same shape. If they restricted themselves to local and nearby events they would probably net more profit. The dream of being at the top in the premier tour is all that keeps them in the WPBA. Unfortunately, only a handful can make money right now and real sponsors that pay enough to mean something are hard to come by and are only going to be tougher to find in the coming years.

We can call it what we like but we are teetering on the edge of another major depression. Right now the taxpayers are bailing out the big players and every corporation of any real size has bellied up to the trough or will shortly. The first thing to be cut when times are tough is discretionary spending, which often means advertising. Too, sponsorship is rarely an effective way to advertise, more someone getting involved in something they love. A lot of sponsorship isn't going to happen and some sponsors that have been great sponsors for years are going to go away. The expansion of purses that is badly needed is perhaps the longest shot on the board.

Any sports entity except the most major sports entities had better be focusing on just still being in existence five years from now. That could be and should be coloring the WPBA board's decisions right now.

Hu




Johnnyt said:
I believe we are going to see more of the women going to play in other events with the top ten women so strong that the major money is spread out to them tournament after tournament. Allison Fisher and Karen Corr make about one third to a half what they made just a few years ago because the champions keep coming and coming from other countries.

I think that the WPBA needs to come up with a major sponsor and/or change the purse structure so at least the dozen best can make a living for their talent (from $40K to $80K at least). I don't know what the pay-offs should be but no one should get paid to come in 40 ? 64 IMO. I know that's rough on the players that hardly ever finish in the top 25 but if they can't, they need to practice more or find another job. There are players that are good on regional tours but are not close to good enough to make any money on the WPBA Tour. There are players that have been on the tour for 15-20 years that can't cut it anymore for a lot of reasons, mostly that the top women are so much better today.

I know getting sponsorships to run a tour is very hard to come by and the WPBA does a good job at it?better than most if not all tours, but sadly it's not enough?players have to make a living. Don't forget, most travel on there own dime. You have to subtract that from their winnings. It's nice to see people like Karen Corr make 75K a year, but how muck did she spend to make it? Maybe 30K. Johnnyt
 
I haven't read all of this thread, too busy with other things right now.

You know that the WPA and others read on here so someone should put up a thread pointing to the article and then post a poll asking AZB members opinions.

I think that WPA would at least pay attention.
 
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