JB Cases Open House - Live Video on Saturday
- Thread starter JB Cases
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I started watching late. Great demonstration that highlighted your point. I finished rewatching the recorded broadcast and it made up for the delay. I now see your point about it doesn't matter which way you load the case. Glad I use joint protectors on all my cues. I did send you an email with some additional questions about the JB interior.
John, Sorry I missed the live stream. I did however watch the recording....seeing the inside of the Justis has just showed me exactly what happened to my cue that got a nick in the clearcoat. So that makes me feel alot better by stating what I have stated before about my situation wiht my old JJ case. And with everyone saying they dont like the "thud" sound when the cue is slid into a Justis should open a few eyes......
If I put my Joint Protectors down as stated by JJ, then what happens to the top of my really nice J/P....wood rubbing on my Ivory topped J/P will scratch them. Alot of things were brought to lite with actually seeing the interior of a Justis...
With the JB interior and a JJ shell....I will have the best of both worlds...so thank you for doing this for us!!!!!
I know it will void my warranty on my Justis "oops, I dont have a warranty because I bought mine 2nd hand" Oh well, I feel I have the best protection FINALLY in my JJ case, and have that awesome JJ look!
Thanks again John for showing us what you did and just know that there are ALOT of people that appreciate you for what you do in protecting our cues!
Shawn
If I put my Joint Protectors down as stated by JJ, then what happens to the top of my really nice J/P....wood rubbing on my Ivory topped J/P will scratch them. Alot of things were brought to lite with actually seeing the interior of a Justis...
With the JB interior and a JJ shell....I will have the best of both worlds...so thank you for doing this for us!!!!!
I know it will void my warranty on my Justis "oops, I dont have a warranty because I bought mine 2nd hand" Oh well, I feel I have the best protection FINALLY in my JJ case, and have that awesome JJ look!
Thanks again John for showing us what you did and just know that there are ALOT of people that appreciate you for what you do in protecting our cues!
Shawn
:grin: I agree....John, your wife should have been holding up the cue cards so you could give out your email addy and not mess it up :grin:
Well I think we can all see why I am not in the TV biz.
That said I want to followup on a few things and then that will just about end the Barton/Justis saga for me.
First for this test I used a Justis ProLite 2x4 dated 2006 and it was unmodified, as in I didn't add or take anything away from it. I did however take the interior out and apart the night before. So for the purpose of the test I rebuilt it on camera and put it back into the exact state it was in when I received it. Any Justis ProLite owner can pull out their interior with very little effort and verify what I showed them on camera.
Secondly, concerning the interior of the Justis and what happens to the cues. I have always known that this interior is fairly weak but it wasn't until last night and today that I knew for sure how weak it is.
And when I say weak I mean that it does the barest possible job of keeping the cue parts separate. I honestly don't understand the point of using thin nylon as a divider in a high end case, or in any case for that matter. It's just one step removed from having no divider.
As for Jack's warning about cues being harmed if put pin and collar down I think that the video proved conclusively that the same exact danger is present when the cues are stored pin and collar up.
This was eye opening to me. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2667047
The reason is because even I wasn't aware that the force generated from a four foot fall would drive the pin through the thin piece of leather/fabric that Jack puts over the wood and into the wood making a deep gouge in the wood. This happened with a three or four foot drop and can be seen starting at the 13 min mark in the video. I will provide later a much better video on this aspect alone.
Lastly, the cues can touch each other when INSIDE the Justis ProLite interior. I devised a rubber band test to show this. And these cues were put in with no oversized joint protectors as many JPs are. The rubber band test conclusively proves that when the cues rattle in a Justis case then they can and do strike each other at the joint collar area.
In conclusion I want to say that Mr. Justis, and from now on that's what he is to me, Mr. Justis and I are truly at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what proper cue protection is.
In this video I have shown what I have wanted to show for years. As I said I will make another one that is calmer and conveys the information much better but I am leaving the raw version up for anyone to watch it. But I am done with all the writing folks. The video is the nuts. I can write a million words and it's not as convincing as watching what really happens.
But don't believe me and don't trust the video. Watch it and then go out and find out for yourselves whether the case you want is really protective of your cues. I am not the be all end all of case making. I am the evangelist for "protection" moreso than any of my colleagues and I know that some of my concerns have been heard by other case and that they are building their cases with that in mind. So there are plenty of good choices out there and there always will be.
Ok so thats enough about Jack Justis and his idea of protection vs. mine.
About all the other issues with Mr. Justis that I have had personally, for me it's now water under the bridge, the dam has been cleared and it's behind me. So you all won't need to hear me on those two subjects again. In the future if I want to "say" something about the comparative protection of our products I will simply post a link to the video and whoever cares can go watch it.
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Ok, so what else did we discuss?
I was asked about the weight of our padded protection vs. no padding. The answer to that was that a Justis tube with my padded interior weighs a .1kg more or 3.5oz than a Justis with a Pro-Lite interior. And if it's coupled with my tube instead of the Justis tube then it's .3kg or 10.5oz heavier. This is for a 2x4 sized tube.
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I was asked if the padded interior could harm the finish on a cue?
No, absolutely not. The fabric we use is soft like a polishing cloth. The foam rubber used puts very little pressure on the cue, just enough to keep it from moving. This was shown on the video. So the absolute opposite is true meaning that using our interiors actually polishes your cue's finish. And I want to add that the SAME fabric is in contact with your case the entire length of the case. As I demonstrated in the "other" interior the nice fabric is there for the first five inches and then the rest is thin nylon. Not to say that nylon will harm your finish but I very much doubt that you your cues sliding on it all the time.
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I was asked if there is any problem with certain wraps, rubber, elephant etc.... and the related question of what about oversized butts like the old Titlists or Schulers etc...
Yes, sometimes if a wrap is sticky or tacky then it can hang up in our cases. This has happened once with an elephant wrap last year. But I have a solution for that which is to create a sleeve for the butt. I did this a decade ago for carom players that I made cases for. They all use rubber wraps that the would often remove before putting the cues into the case. My solution allowed them to use any normal cue case and not have to worry about the cues getting stuck. I will post up a video of this solution in action later this coming week.
Our interiors conform to the cue so oversized butts are not a problem. The foam rubber forms itself around the cue parts and the beauty of the foam/fabric interior is that it's completely flexible and works equally well for thin cues as well as fat ones.
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I was asked to critique a Whitten.
Since I don't have a Whitten I couldn't really do that. But what I did have is a copy of a Whitten that I chose to use. And as it turned out the copy was perfect for me to make another point that I have ranted about.
That point is DON'T BUY KNOCKOFFS because you don't know how they are made.
When I went to demonstrate the Whitten knockoff the shafts got stuck in the tubes because the tubes are too small - and they were almost REALLY STUCK but I stopped them from going to far down and so was able to get them out.
Now then what was my critique of Whitten going to be? Only that I don't like the rattle. I would pad the tubes some where and eliminate the rattle. Other than that I have NOTHING to say but KUDOS to Dan and Joe Whitten for putting out an incredibly solid case that is truly, truly, truly an orginal.
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I was asked why we sew the backs of some of our cases instead of rivet them;
(this question was asked by Rex Goulet, Cyrex, who is going to be a major case maker if he sticks with it.)
Rex knows, as does Rusty Melton now that he is also doing it, that sewing the back of the case instead of riveting it is very labor intensive and tough.
The basic answer of why we do it is because we can. I think that a sewn back has the cleanest look of any case that is done in parts and sewn. What I mean by that is that a GTF or Thomas/Fellini style with a glued seam is obviously much sleeker. And I should mention that Whitten cases are made so that the leather is glued to the body and as such they also have a very sleek look. But a sewn seam as we do it is very nice looking.
We have two ways to do it. - By hand or by machine. Unfortunately I do not yet have the sewing machine to do this type of seam so we do it by hand. Jiasen, who makes our J.Flowers Tribute production cases has such a machine and so the J.Flowers cases from Jiasen are machine sewn - Don't think that this is easy with a machine because it's actually quite tricky to do a nice straight line on the horizontal axis, it requires a very skilled operator.
Also when we do the Rolls Royce model the ONLY WAY to do it is to sew the front pockets and the back inlay by hand. And this is a popular design so that's why you see a lot of them.
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So those were a few of the major questions and as I said I will do some new videos where I go through and address each question and answer it in a better way with clear video.
Thank you again everyone for your time. To those I have offended by going on this tirade my apologies. Sometimes passion wins over reason but the clear winner here is the consumer. When you as a consumer know more about the nuts and bolts then you can make a better decision.
And at the age of 21 I was the consumer whose $1400 cue was broken because the case did not protect it as I assumed it would and so my case making career was born.
So at the end of the day I want you to know that when I build you a case, whether it's a $50 basic production case, or a $2500 fully tooled and painted work of art, I am always, always thinking about my Schon and how devastated I was to see it on the floor with a broken buttcap.
Peace.
John Barton - Case Maker.
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I just watched the recorded video and think you did a great job of getting your point across and for those out there who do not think they are valid the video shows otherwise. I do hope Mr. Justis does something now with the interior and perhaps will offer an upgrade for the ones who already own one. :smile:Well I think we can all see why I am not in the TV biz.
That said I want to followup on a few things and then that will just about end the Barton/Justis saga for me.
First for this test I used a Justis ProLite 2x4 dated 2006 and it was unmodified, as in I didn't add or take anything away from it. I did however take the interior out and apart the night before. So for the purpose of the test I rebuilt it on camera and put it back into the exact state it was in when I received it. Any Justis ProLite owner can pull out their interior with very little effort and verify what I showed them on camera.
Secondly, concerning the interior of the Justis and what happens to the cues. I have always known that this interior is fairly weak but it wasn't until last night and today that I knew for sure how weak it is.
And when I say weak I mean that it does the barest possible job of keeping the cue parts separate. I honestly don't understand the point of using thin nylon as a divider in a high end case, or in any case for that matter. It's just one step removed from having no divider.
As for Jack's warning about cues being harmed if put pin and collar down I think that the video proved conclusively that the same exact danger is present when the cues are stored pin and collar up.
This was eye opening to me. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2667047
The reason is because even I wasn't aware that the force generated from a four foot fall would drive the pin through the thin piece of leather/fabric that Jack puts over the wood and into the wood making a deep gouge in the wood. This happened with a three or four foot drop and can be seen starting at the 13 min mark in the video. I will provide later a much better video on this aspect alone.
Lastly, the cues can touch each other when INSIDE the Justis ProLite interior. I devised a rubber band test to show this. And these cues were put in with no oversized joint protectors as many JPs are. The rubber band test conclusively proves that when the cues rattle in a Justis case then they can and do strike each other at the joint collar area.
In conclusion I want to say that Mr. Justis, and from now on that's what he is to me, Mr. Justis and I are truly at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to what proper cue protection is.
In this video I have shown what I have wanted to show for years. As I said I will make another one that is calmer and conveys the information much better but I am leaving the raw version up for anyone to watch it. But I am done with all the writing folks. The video is the nuts. I can write a million words and it's not as convincing as watching what really happens.
But don't believe me and don't trust the video. Watch it and then go out and find out for yourselves whether the case you want is really protective of your cues. I am not the be all end all of case making. I am the evangelist for "protection" moreso than any of my colleagues and I know that some of my concerns have been heard by other case and that they are building their cases with that in mind. So there are plenty of good choices out there and there always will be.
Ok so thats enough about Jack Justis and his idea of protection vs. mine.
About all the other issues with Mr. Justis that I have had personally, for me it's now water under the bridge, the dam has been cleared and it's behind me. So you all won't need to hear me on those two subjects again. In the future if I want to "say" something about the comparative protection of our products I will simply post a link to the video and whoever cares can go watch it.
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Ok, so what else did we discuss?
I was asked about the weight of our padded protection vs. no padding. The answer to that was that a Justis tube with my padded interior weighs a 10th of a kilogram more. 1/10th of a KG. And if it's coupled with my tube instead of the Justis tube then it's .3kg or 3/10ths heavier. This is for a 2x4 sized tube.
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I was asked if the padded interior could harm the finish on a cue?
No, absolutely not. The fabric we use is soft like a polishing cloth. The foam rubber used puts very little pressure on the cue, just enough to keep it from moving. This was shown on the video. So the absolute opposite is true meaning that using our interiors actually polishes your cue's finish.
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I was asked if there is any problem with certain wraps, rubber, elephant etc.... and the related question of what about oversized butts like the old Titlists or Schulers etc...
Yes, sometimes if a wrap is sticky or tacky then it can hang up in our cases. This has happened once with an elephant wrap last year. But I have a solution for that which is to create a sleeve for the butt. I did this a decade ago for carom players that I made cases for. They all use rubber wraps that the would often remove before putting the cues into the case. My solution allowed them to use any normal cue case and not have to worry about the cues getting stuck. I will post up a video of this solution in action later this coming week.
Our interiors conform to the cue so oversized butts are not a problem. The foam rubber forms itself around the cue parts and the beauty of the foam/fabric interior is that it's completely flexible and works equally well for thin cues as well as fat ones.
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So those were a few of the major questions and as I said I will do some new videos where I go through and address each question and answer it in a better way with clear video.
Thank you again everyone for your time. To those I have offended by going on this tirade my apologies. Sometimes passion wins over reason but the clear winner here is the consumer. When you as a consumer know more about the nuts and bolts then you can make a better decision.
And at the age of 21 I was the consumer whose $1400 cue was broken because the case did not protect it as I assumed it would and so my case making career was born.
So at the end of the day I want you to know that when I build you a case, whether it's a $50 basic production case, or a $2500 fully tooled and painted work of art, I am always, always thinking about my Schon and how devastated I was to see it on the floor with a broken buttcap.
Peace.
John Barton - Case Maker.
P.S. John where is my case!
:grin:
The thing I have always admired about John is that he tells the truth. Even if some folk can't handle the truth, John is true to himself. That is a very admirable trait to have in business.
John, in case nobody's said it before, you've got balls, and I like your style! :wink:
John, in case nobody's said it before, you've got balls, and I like your style! :wink:
fsarfino
♔ ♕ ♖ ♗ ♘ ♙
John,
Thanks for the video, It was very informative. Not trying to knock you, But we need to see the fall test on a future video with one of your cases. I'm sure they will perform fine in this test but you need to do the drop test so its a fair test.
Thanks for the video, It was very informative. Not trying to knock you, But we need to see the fall test on a future video with one of your cases. I'm sure they will perform fine in this test but you need to do the drop test so its a fair test.
Absolutely. I had an oops J.Flowers case right there that I was going to use for the test and do the same thing. It's a black and white one we made for Reed Huebner. I messed up the white leather on the first one so it's just perfect for this type of test.
But I hope that you could see at least from the violent way I was shaking my interior and failing to get the cues to come out that the padded interior would definitely arrest the forward movement of the cues significantly.
I will do it in the morning also on UStream. Right now I am home but in the morning I will repeat the test on both cases side by side.
I will say this. When I owned Instroke I never made a case without a padded lid inside. Since I restarted I allowed myself to believe that maybe the padding in the lid was not needed. I now know that I will NEVER make another case without a padded lid.
Any o fmy current customers who requests it of me can have a padded part sent to them that they can glue in themselves if they want a pad in the lid.
Great video!
I've always liked Justis cases design wise and I didn't like the move to the pro-lite design.... I don't mind the extra weight of the tubes.
Having only seeing Justis cases on-line I was very disappointed with the protection of the pro-lite when I first got see and touch it. Even the case owner told me that it's not that protective and he just use it to store cues in the pool hall....
The video is very impressive.
How ever I have a few questions:
1. Is there a difference between the "organic rebound interior" that comes with s Sterling case and the one that comes with a JB case?
2. What is the difference between the "organic rebound interior" and the other (soft) interior that you've used in the demo?
The reason I ask, I haven't got to see/feel a JB case yet, however I do own a Sterling 4x8 with the "organic rebound interior".
When I turn the case over, the shafts and butt fall out...
I was surprised to see that since when the case is fully loaded it is a very tight fit... too tight if you ask me. It is so tight that you can't really fit all the butts if all the shafts are in there and there is a danger of damaging the cues from hitting each other, mostly a chance to chip the finish on the butt cup of the cue being inserted into the case. I have to take adjacent shafts out in order to fit the forth butt and sometimes the third.
If the Sterling shell and interior is similar to the JB shell and interior may I suggest a slightly larger shell and a thicker dividers?
I think that with this change the soft interior could become even more protective then PVC tubes especially when taking a flight and needing to check in the cues as the cues will rattle inside a well padded tube more then in a suspended thick padded soft and embracing sock.
I've always liked Justis cases design wise and I didn't like the move to the pro-lite design.... I don't mind the extra weight of the tubes.
Having only seeing Justis cases on-line I was very disappointed with the protection of the pro-lite when I first got see and touch it. Even the case owner told me that it's not that protective and he just use it to store cues in the pool hall....
The video is very impressive.
How ever I have a few questions:
1. Is there a difference between the "organic rebound interior" that comes with s Sterling case and the one that comes with a JB case?
2. What is the difference between the "organic rebound interior" and the other (soft) interior that you've used in the demo?
The reason I ask, I haven't got to see/feel a JB case yet, however I do own a Sterling 4x8 with the "organic rebound interior".
When I turn the case over, the shafts and butt fall out...
I was surprised to see that since when the case is fully loaded it is a very tight fit... too tight if you ask me. It is so tight that you can't really fit all the butts if all the shafts are in there and there is a danger of damaging the cues from hitting each other, mostly a chance to chip the finish on the butt cup of the cue being inserted into the case. I have to take adjacent shafts out in order to fit the forth butt and sometimes the third.
If the Sterling shell and interior is similar to the JB shell and interior may I suggest a slightly larger shell and a thicker dividers?
I think that with this change the soft interior could become even more protective then PVC tubes especially when taking a flight and needing to check in the cues as the cues will rattle inside a well padded tube more then in a suspended thick padded soft and embracing sock.
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Hey, John, remember this? http://forums.azbilliards.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=all&ppuser=20861
This one below is my absolute fave!
This one below is my absolute fave!
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fsarfino
♔ ♕ ♖ ♗ ♘ ♙
I'm very impressed by your interior.
Another issue I wanted to address with the "organic rebound" interior is that the butt and shafts will pop up over the lip of the interior and hit the inside of the lid.
This is how it looks when all butts and shafts are pushed down
And this how it looks when opening the case after a single 6 inches shake to simulate a small bump or just putting down the case after walking around with it.
I use this case for storage and although I push them all down, whenever I open the case after a while the buts and shafts are popping out like that.
John, you know that I'm a fan and for me protection is first so this is not to bash you but more to raise some issues that could be protection problems.
BTW, All the butts and shafts in this case wear joint protectors that were taking off for these pictures, so my cue are safe
This is how it looks when all butts and shafts are pushed down
And this how it looks when opening the case after a single 6 inches shake to simulate a small bump or just putting down the case after walking around with it.
I use this case for storage and although I push them all down, whenever I open the case after a while the buts and shafts are popping out like that.
John, you know that I'm a fan and for me protection is first so this is not to bash you but more to raise some issues that could be protection problems.
BTW, All the butts and shafts in this case wear joint protectors that were taking off for these pictures, so my cue are safe
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Yes and no. The first ones we did were a little looser than what we are doing now. Because I wanted to emulate the spring-up effect that some people like I made them so that the springiness was achieved instantly and didn't put as much padding at the bottom as I normally would.
In the interim I have developed a better way to do it so that there is more padding in the bottom which holds the cues in place and still allows them to rise up when the case is opened.
Unfortunately the two goals are opposing. Having the cues stay in place when inverted and having them comes out of the case on their own as you can see are two completely opposite things. So I admit on this score I chose to lessen the padding in favor of letting the cues rise up. But since version 1.0 I have figured out how to get much closer to the goal of having them stay in when inverted AND come up.
I will do a video tomorrow highlighting the Organic Rebound interior. I meant to get to it today but honestly I just got tired after two hours.
The soft interior that I showed in the video is the UltraPad. This one features the thicker padding and no springy effect. It's what is standard on the J.Flowers cases and since that is the case most closely associated with the J.E.F.(Flowers)/Justis look I chose to highlight that interior first.
See above.
There is a little bit of a learning curve to using this case. The butts should always go in first and then the shafts are no problem and the same in reverse. I guess all I can say to that is that this is the price of more efficiency in the capacity. That is the trade off for having a 4x8 in this size case. I promise however to take a long look at the interior and see how I can improve that aspect. I believe that I can extend the fabric all the way to the top and that would work. Because I think that with the Rebound feature the butts would come up easy enough.
I will work up a sample of that and show it to you this week. If it works then we will put in all future cases and I will send you one with instructions on how to install it if you like. Sometimes I do forget that what works for me doesn't always work in the field. But if I don't get feedback like this I don't know that there is a problem.
No you may not.
Of course you can. The shell won't be getting larger any time soon as it's made from a mold that I paid a lot to have done. But I promise to revisit the 4x8 and see about improving it. The case holds 4 butts and 8 shafts easily. It is the amount of padding and the layout of holes that determines how well it works.I do understand where you are coming from and I think when you see the video on the improved version of the Organic Rebound then it will be closer to what you want to see.
Thanks for the input.
John
Another issue I wanted to address with the "organic rebound" interior is that the butt and shafts will pop up over the lip of the interior and hit the inside of the lid.
This is how it looks when all butts and shafts are pushed down
And this how it looks when opening the case after a single 6 inches shake to simulate a small bump or just putting down the case after walking around with it.
I use this case for storage and although I push them all down, whenever I open the case after a while the buts and shafts are popping out like that.
John, you know that I'm a fan and for me protection is first so this is not to bash you but more to raise some issues that could be protection problems.
BTW, All the butts and shafts in this case wear joint protectors that were taking off for these pictures, so my cue are safe
This is what it's supposed to do. The cues are supposed to pop up when you open the case.
That's the main feature of the Organic Rebound interior.
Yes I will.
From now on all cases get a pad under the lid. Sometimes I just can't believe that I got to the point where I ever thought that it wasn't needed.
John in my Cues Cases I carry a piece of Baby Flannel in the LID to Pad the Lid, and Fill the Dead Space between the cue, and CASE TOP. The flannel works great to dry hand while playing, and Cues after play also.