I had to stop at the bold. John would seriously need all of that? There are 8' tables all over the country. In Texas, they're pretty much standard. Why would Diamond have to make him one? To give him conditions he's used to? Sounds like giving him an unfair advantage.
john schimdt runs 266
- Thread starter vicki h
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I had to stop at the bold. John would seriously need all of that? There are 8' tables all over the country. In Texas, they're pretty much standard. Why would Diamond have to make him one? To give him conditions he's used to? Sounds like giving him an unfair advantage.
I have only seen the claim about Mosconi fouling during a run once before and that was a previous high run discussion. Someone made that assertion and the "evidence" turned out to be video from the Mosconi/Caras Valley Forge tribute dinner in '91, which was Mosconi's last public appearance when Willie was coming up on 80 years of age and in the early stages of Alzheimer's. Are you suggesting there is other evidence to support that claim?
As to incentive for the run -- there are a whole slew of guys that would give their left nut to be the record holder, the guy who beat Mosconi's run, and with video to prove it. Every single time one of these guys steps up to a table with a video camera rolling you know they are dying to get there. They are not out to run 200, or 300, or even 400. They want the record in the worst way. The thing about needing a prize is baloney -- the record is the prize and if that's not enough incentive you don't deserve to break it.
Lou Figueroa
I thought the shelf on a gold crown was larger than a diamond?
IMO, John Schmidt is an excellent commentator. Any time he is commentating a match, the learning factor is increased. I have the accu stats dvd where he has a long run against Johnny archer in the 14.1 world championships, and he narrates with Danny diliberto for the entire run. It's excellent.
If I had a Facebook page, I'd take him up on that dvd offer.
If I had a Facebook page, I'd take him up on that dvd offer.
No John would not need a a special Diamond table but I was Diamond I would want John to run it on a Diamond. I would think all you sticklers would want the record to be beaten on a table with similiar sized pockets.
If I was Fury I would want John to run it with a Fury cue.
If I was Aramith I would want the best Aramith balls used for the high run.
If I was Mt Dew or Mosnter or Chevrolet and I thought pool playters spent money then I would want the best 14.1 player consuming my products and endorsing such a player. For now that is not the case.
I was not at the high run, I personally do not know anyone who was at the high run to ask if he could have fouled a ball mid run. I am not saying he did, but there is no proof he did not. Without a true official present during the run no one will ever know if there was a ball bumped or touched in the 5 hours or so for that run. I for one know for someone to run an official video (whatever that means) 526+ in this day and time all the pool detectives would require no balls touched in anyway. I am saying we do not know if that occurred in anyway during the 526.Can you say it did not happen Lou, hard to believe because Mosconi gave at lease 2 accounts of how the officia 526 run ended.
Would any current great player love to hold the new high run record with or without a bounty. Yes of course they would all love it but they do not care enough to try to get it at least that is my opinion. If someone put up a 100k or more and setup requirements to be considered official I think some player American, European or Asian would get that money and it might be pretty quick.
Here is what Wikipedia has on the run from Mosconi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_pool
Mosconi's high run
One of the all-time greatest players, Willie Mosconi, had a record high run of 526 points.[2] Here is what he said about the high run:
On March 19, [1954] in Springfield, Ohio, I ran 526 balls, a record that still stands. I was playing a two-hundred-point match against an amateur by the name of Earl Bruney in the East High Billiard Club. He made three balls off the break, then I ran two hundred and just kept going. The run took two hours and ten minutes, which means that over the span I averaged four balls a minute. I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end. There were about three hundred people in the audience, and one of them was an attorney who prepared an affidavit attesting to the validity of my claim to a new record. A few days later, the BCA gave its stamp of approval.[3]
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Mike Sigel made the following comment to me during the 2009 World 14.1
event. "Go back to the 1950's with a set of aramith balls, simonis cloth and the kind of rails in use today and Mosconi might run 2,000." The thing is, though, that, even if Mike is right, it doesn't matter.
The only measure of greatness is sustained excellence, not how one performs on their best day. Sustained excellence is measured in titles, and it is by that measure alone that Mosconi's greatness will always be understood.
Efren Reyes in 60 years old. Efren Reyes won the 2014 DCC one pocket tournament with 300 people entered, losing zero matches. Plenty of players from the younger generation were in the tournament.
Regarding 14.1 today's players are great but the difference between today's players and guys like Irving Crane is safety play. Because they mostly play games other than 14.1 today's players don't have the understanding of the previous generation. I was watching a live stream with Bobby Hunter commentating and he brought up that point with a world champion at the table.
Another difference is equipment. It is similar to comparing today's baseball players to Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth rode a train from city to city, 1/3 of his games were double headers, had no air conditioning, no supplements and was expected to play every game. The question isn't whether Babe Ruth could play today, the question is whether today's players could play under those conditions. Put today's players in a non-air conditioned pool hall on slow cloth with an ancient cue with clay balls in a suitcoat with sweat running off them on a 10 foot table and we'll see how many balls they run.
I watched the DCC 14.1 challenge on a 10 foot table. With modern cloth, air conditioning, modern cues etc those pros were struggling big time. I doubt Balsis, Crane, Mosconi, Caras, Lassiter, Ponzi, Greenleaf etc would have been intimidated by what they saw.
Regarding 14.1 today's players are great but the difference between today's players and guys like Irving Crane is safety play. Because they mostly play games other than 14.1 today's players don't have the understanding of the previous generation. I was watching a live stream with Bobby Hunter commentating and he brought up that point with a world champion at the table.
Another difference is equipment. It is similar to comparing today's baseball players to Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth rode a train from city to city, 1/3 of his games were double headers, had no air conditioning, no supplements and was expected to play every game. The question isn't whether Babe Ruth could play today, the question is whether today's players could play under those conditions. Put today's players in a non-air conditioned pool hall on slow cloth with an ancient cue with clay balls in a suitcoat with sweat running off them on a 10 foot table and we'll see how many balls they run.
I watched the DCC 14.1 challenge on a 10 foot table. With modern cloth, air conditioning, modern cues etc those pros were struggling big time. I doubt Balsis, Crane, Mosconi, Caras, Lassiter, Ponzi, Greenleaf etc would have been intimidated by what they saw.
That is quoted from Mosconi's autobiography Willie's Game. Note that he says it took only 2 hrs. and 10 min., not 5 hours.
What I was saying about the foul or most lackly lack there of who knows if any foul occurred but also did Mosconi clean the cue ball mid run or did he clean all the balls while racking at anytime. MAybe but probably not as he was going at a fast clip. My entire point is the affadavit does not have a lot of details. The run was actually done by finishing a run started during a game. To me it is no more official than Eufemia or Crnafield runs or the 600 run Mosconi did per Lou there was nothing to make it "official". I am sure he ran a 526 aqnd I think modern players have a similiar or higher number within themselves especially an elite player or 2 in the US and then the Europeans wow there are many hi run capable players today. .
He won like 19 world titles by wide margins. He was the greatest of his era and his era was the hey day of pool. I would reckon that he would love todays equipment and run some mega numbers without doubt. If he was amongst us today I think the new young players would play that much better because he would be a catalyst. I do not know that he would love short rack games such as 9/10 ball.
I posted something similiar at the bottom of my post from Wikipedia. He was a fast player would have been great to see that run.
Yes I missed the 30k you just put up.
More details please when you got time on the 30k and the criteria to win the prize.
Thanks for supporting straight pool.
I am not trying to denigrate Mosconi in anyway. He is the greatest player of all time and does have the highest official run at 526 whatever that means. I think it is great John ran a 266 on a Diamond and now we have someone putting up $30k for anyone beating the Mosconi record.
Here is a link to the affadavit for his run of 526. http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg
He won like 19 world titles by wide margins. He was the greatest of his era and his era was the hey day of pool. I would reckon that he would love todays equipment and run some mega numbers without doubt. If he was amongst us today I think the new young players would play that much better because he would be a catalyst. I do not know that he would love short rack games such as 9/10 ball.
I posted something similiar at the bottom of my post from Wikipedia. He was a fast player would have been great to see that run.
Yes I missed the 30k you just put up.
More details please when you got time on the 30k and the criteria to win the prize.
Thanks for supporting straight pool.
I am not trying to denigrate Mosconi in anyway. He is the greatest player of all time and does have the highest official run at 526 whatever that means. I think it is great John ran a 266 on a Diamond and now we have someone putting up $30k for anyone beating the Mosconi record.
Here is a link to the affadavit for his run of 526. http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg
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Yes, but sustained excellence and best-day performance are both of substantial interest in sports. I imagine you remember Bob Beamon. His long jump at the 1968 Olympics beat the existing world record by over 21 inches. That jump stood as the world record for over two decades and is still, after 46 years, the Olympic record.
So if someone runs a well documented 800 in 14.1 (let's make it 800 so it exceeds any of the reports of 600's and 700's in the past), I think it will be of significant interest to many of us.
Probably because they didn't realize that the great accomplishment they just witnessed would be scrutinized by a bunch of nits on a forum 70 years leather, making a big deal about not only the size of the table, but the cloth used, the balls used, and let's not forget, the nits' favorite thing, pocket width and shelf depth. Oh yeah, he did it wearing a suit, no less, not some loose polo shirt.
They were more than likely simply happy enough to have been witness to such an accomplishment.
Even if there was no money involved. Breaking this record on any 8 or 9 footer would instantly make the person an all time pool legend, and they would be considered one of the best ever. That could have significant monetary gain, and even if it didn't, it would still be considered a big deal to just about any athlete in any sport.
It wouldn't be that hard to create a large jackpot for this. Have a traveling challenge at every tournament that is played on a specific style of table. $20 to try. You could have prizes for 50, 100, 150 ball runs etc, that would hopefully be donated by sponsors. Soon enough, the jackpot would get to a point that was worth some practice and effort. I hear a lot of people complain about the lack of payoff for breaking the record, but no one does anything about it. I hear the above poster chirping this, and challenging others to put up money. Why don't you organize something like I proposed and then the discussion can be settled once and for all.
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Elvi, my problem with what you're saying is that you are casting aspersions on Mosconi's run, with absolutely no basis for doing so.
Let me give you an example: I note that in your sig line you “claim” your high run is 49. But how do we know that’s true? Do we know whether you fouled during that run? Moved the CB to clean it and maybe put it back in a more favorable position? How do we know whether or not you twisted the rack a bit to give yourself a better break angle?
See, unless there’s a reason for it, you take the claim at face value or at least give the benefit of the doubt. Given that there is an affidavit signed by numerous witnesses, and that no one has come forward with the kind of aspersions you're casting, I find questioning the run in the manner you're doing a bit scurrilous.
I totally believe you ran 49, no video or affidavit needed. You should give Willie the same courtesy.
Lou Figueroa
Yes, but Beamon's jump came in competition, and it is because he out-jumped every single great long jumper in the world that day that his jump has some context. All of them jumped on the same course and in the same wind conditions and did so under conditions of maximum pressure.
Had somebody jumped further a week later, but not in competition, that jump would have been far less impressive, and would not have been celebrated in the least.
What sport even catalogues accomplishments that occur in practice and calls them records? Personally, I don't think Mosconi's exhibition record of 526 or Cranfield's 768 practice run are important, even though they are very impressive.
In contrast, Appleton's 200 and out in 2013 occurred in competition, so it is important.
I do appreciate the "in competition" aspect. Unfortunately, the opportunities for long 14.1 runs in competition are quite limited. So, as I said, a well documented run of 800, under any conditions, would be of significant interest to many people (even if it was just a "Ted St. Martin" type of achievement).
I'll tell you what. You go to Yankee stadium, rent it for the day with your friends, and hit a home run 600 feet, I'm not going to argue with anyone who knocked the ball out of the park the farthest.... if you did it, then you did it. It's more of a bragging right....
Mosconi's championships are his accomplishments during matches.... but, correct me if I'm wrong here, but were there any matches that raced to 500 for championship play ? Thus, how would one get there unless it was an exhibition ?
{...SNIP...}
Again, if anyone could break the record, they would break the record, plain and simple. Who would not want the most notable pool record on the planet, held by the most notable professional pool player, who had the most notable world championships, winning 19.
Just remember, to be the BEST, you gotta beat the BEST. And right now, the BEST is 526. And if anyone wants to prove me wrong, come and get some, there are 8 foot tables all over the place.
Or they can take the easy way out and just win 19 world championships, and I will personally crown them the best and put $30K in their hands. And I'll do the $30K for a 526 run as well* Come and take my cheese
*conditions apply
PS: Congrats to John on his run. A great player and one of my favorites as well.
What are these conditions of which you speak?
Yes. Many or perhaps even most of the Championships in the 30s and 40s were by challenge matches. I think they were typically to 1200 or 1500 points in several blocks. I'd fill in more details, but Charlie Ursitti's web site appears to be broken. I believe the 182 record run by Procita was in such a Championship match.