Yeah. We all understand the math at this point. So what. With runs this big, I no longer care about the numbers, just the results.
John Schmidt runs 820
- Thread starter iusedtoberich
- Start date
I really don't think anyone who knows even just a little bit about pool and 14.1 believes these plastic runs, on specially setup tables with perfect conditions, have much to do with the true 14.1 high run record.
What we are seeing are runs, with *endless attempts,* on equipment and with conditions ideally and artificially set up to be conducive to running a lot of balls. Those saying it's even remotely similar to what Mosconi did are full of bs.
Lou Figueroa
i dont play straight pool but i have to say this
to walk in to a strange room to play on a table you havent played on
with balls and room conditions different every time
and run 100 balls like tying your shoes
mosconi has to be respected for being able to do that
on the other hand
to run 4/5/6/7/8 hundred balls under any conditions you cant be no slouch !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cicerone88
Well-known member
By that standard then any World Championship past 1999 with the use of the sardo tight rack and then magic rack is then somehow less impressive than earlier championships.
Also Mosconi set his record run on a prepared exhibition table. High runs have always occured during exhibitions or practice sessions. Sigel and Varner spent long hours practicing chasing the record.
If improved conditions invalidate modern accomplishments, then that would undermine most modern accomplishments in all sports. Whats to stop someone from saying Mosconi’s record isn’t valid because table conditions were better in Mosconi’s era than Ralph Greenleafs?
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Totally different scenarios.
Mosconi might have had new cloth — that’s about it. He walked into a new room, spectators, unknown temp and humidity, shot, and set his record.
What’s going on now are specially set up tables, templates, and *endless* attempts. IOWs, current attempts are being manufactured in a vacuum.
Set up the table and let ANY of these guys get ONE attempt and see what they run, lol.
Lou Figueroa
That's the point. Both things can be true at the same time. Schmidt should be praised, if for no other reason than he is ONE OF US! The guy is chasing a dream that we have all seen glimpses of, even if only for a moment or two. I would think everyone on a pool forum would understand this, at least to a point.
All the hypothetical math stuff is pointless. Some of these math guys would lead us to believe that if Musk put up a billion for a high run record, than naturally the high run would become 2,583 balls. Don't you guys get it? It's all just simple math. Stop caring.
for schmidt it was not a job, or an attempt, or a game, or a sport
it was a quest, a life goal, a mythical journey that he took on not knowing if he would ever make it or not
the challenge mosconi (working a job as an employee) put into place was there decades before schmidt began his own personal attempts to measure himself against legends, against history, and against failure
and he came out on the other side with what he set out to find, the feeling and knowledge of what the great mosconi had felt, 500+
could schmidt do night in and out what mosconi did? probably not
could schmidt have beaten mosconi on one of his many many world championship runs? probably not
mosconi was the king for a long time
the king must die
Does seem like the people chasing the record now are taking the advantages of today and yesterday. Playing with the old balls and old cloth way more than offsets table and pocket sizes from yesterday. smitty has tried heaters, who knows what the deal was with the magic cue ball that actually cost him. One chuckle, john accidentally tranquilized himself to get one high run. Short term B-12 mellows you right on out. The boost takes a few days to take effect. If you choke under pressure like the 820 sounds like, the right dose of B-12 is just the ticket!
One reason Willie never shot a higher number is he had no reason to, he had the accepted world record. There is little doubt he could have pushed it higher if he had any incentive to. He was putting on multiple exhibitions a day and doing his own driving between them usually I understand. Sheer fatigue was a major issue for him. Hard to ignore these things. He didn't try to set up ideal conditions. There have been endless talks about pocket width but I never hear any talk about the various angles on the pockets. a twelve degree relief angle makes a much friendlier pocket than one cut straight up and down. Not that I know much about pool table geometry other than shooting on them.
If I had a pool hall I would have four and a half inch corner pocket width and major under cuts on the pockets. Maybe open the side pockets up more like three-quarters of an inch or more than a half inch bigger. All the banger boys can impress their girlfriends!
I think today's players could hustle some sponsorship backing and make it worthwhile to spend some time on a table if it results in a record. As we see with the lack of general public reaction, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Hu
Having said these things about Willie, what I find most interesting is the high runs without fouling in the modern era.
Cicerone88
Well-known member
I think there’s a misconception that he just walked into a random pool hall one day and ran 526 balls on a random table. He was hired by Brunswick to promote their products, these tables were prepped ahead of time for him. Good playing conditions were part of the show. He was doing multiple exhibitions in a day, doing over a hundred exhibitions in a year. He was constantly playing and making high run attempts.
Mosconi also stated that he ran over 600 in practice. Sigel and Varner also chased the record in practice. So the idea that modern players are uniquely taking endless attempts in a vacuum doesn’t really hold any water.
Many will never let go of Mosconi and his era, which I don't blame them for because I think I know why. Mosconi played when the game was closer to an art than a sport. Today's game is ALL sport. Mosconi played with the grace of a dancer, and the overall product was a thing of beauty. The demands of the game have removed all of that from the sport, just like the ever increasing standard in snooker has erased the possibility of someone like Alex Higgins ever coming along again.
Okay....but now what? Should we just outlaw 14.1 exhibition high run attempts? Come on guys, there's no going back. I really wish there was at times.
Okay....but now what? Should we just outlaw 14.1 exhibition high run attempts? Come on guys, there's no going back. I really wish there was at times.
Cicerone88
Well-known member
I’m a sucker for old school pool. I think the game is less sport than it’s ever been. Soft breaks, template racks, fast cloth, layered tips, jump cues, and carbon shafts have all but destroyed power pool of the 80’s and 90’s that I fell in love with. It’s all bunt shots now. But all sports evolve over time - and players inevitably will push numbers higher. Thats just how sports progress.
I will agree though that Mosconi and all the other guys back then had an air of class and charm to them from a bygone era we all wish we could go back to. Mosconi will forever go down in history as one of the greats.
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Doing exhibitions often, yes. But my understanding is that he usually quit running balls once he reached game points against his opponent, generally from 100 to 150 points. Continuing to run balls until he missed was infrequent.
Not really.
Yes, surely.
You are wrong on several counts.
The tables were not "prepped for him -- he probably got new cloth, that's it.
And, he was not constantly making high run attempts -- he was playing a local to 125. He'd often play a low percentage shot like the front ball into the side, or a corner ball one rail bank to give his opponent a running start. Then, when it was his shot, he'd often turn to the crowd and ask them if they'd like to see a 100 ball run.
Then he'd do it.
He was doing that on a different tables, and in different rooms, somewhere around 300 times a year all around the country. Other than running 100 or making it to 125 there was no high run attempt. At the conclusion of the match he'd shoot a number of trick shots, hang around, sign some autographs and call it a night or be off to the next town and do it again. I know this because I witnessed it several times growing up in San Franciso where he'd come to do an exhibition every year.
Lastly, he was not chasing his own record. The only reason he ran the 526 in Springfield, OH was that the room owner was some kind of friend and Mosconi said he wanted to put on a good show for him. So he played his match that night to 200 points v the usual 100/125. His opponent ran three. And when Mosconi got to 200 someone in the crowd urged him to keep going to see how many he could get. IOWs, his attempt that night was a one-off.
He ran the 600 while warming up in his hotel run before one of his matches with Fats. Charlie Ursetti was racking for him and at one point they broke for lunch. Then Mosconi kept running balls, put down his cue, the run unfinished. He didn't chase or care about it.
Lou Figueroa
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