joint pin question

[scdiveteam]

Rick,

When I read that you were going to make a video showing a rail test, I thought this is what you were going to do.

Shaft straightness rail test.

This is a more telling test of how straight everything is from (including) the joint to the tip. The question at hand is what is the tip end of the shaft doing when unconstrained (not bending against a rail or table under the cue's own weight) and attached to the butt of the cue. By rolling the cue on the rail BELOW the joint of the cue, what is happening at the tip end takes into account both the accuracy of the joint and how straight the shaft is.

I trust the cue in your videos would score high on this test as well, I just thought it was worth mentioning. I suspect culling shaft blanks hard early, your dedication to standards, and your shaft turning schedule and methods are what helps you overcome the flaw with cutting threads and facing prior to final size.

Kelly,

Thanks for showing me that video. I do like the "on the rail test" with the shaft unsupported.

I learned how to roll it on the rail with the joint unsupported from Ray Schuler as that was the way Herman Rambo taught him. I can see that DZ's way is more telling.

Rick

 

[shankster8]

Rick, why not immediately do another video of the same cue using DZ's test.

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick, why not immediately do another video of the same cue using DZ's test.

Good Idea. I also included a video of pin I just installed last night that was still mounted in the lathe. With all the talk about concentricity I though it would be appropriate to show what I think a pin tolerance should be. Many people also don't like my pin install method because they keep bringing it up after I shared my thoughts in this area as well.

After chucking my butt up in a tapered collet and indicating zero on the joint collar my tolerance for the pin is also zero but I have to settle for .00025 because my pin is chrome plated brass and there is a smige of chrome differential on the circumference of the pins nose where I indicate

I am all about repeatable results and really don't care what others want to call flawed as they have never tried my methods or Ray Schuler's either. The arguments about my facing moving or the by threads going off the parallel center line or taper contour if the shaft moves a hair is all theoretical BS.

BTW, Ray put his round pilots in his shaft stock right after putting on the initial taper. He ran on this chamfered end of the pilot from around .980 to his final joint dia. and his shafts were awesome.

Rick



The indicator reads in .0005 increments.

 

[shankster8]

Rick, DZ's video says the contact point is just below the joint. Your cue contacts the rail above the joint. Might as well make it 100% apples to apples.

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick, DZ's video says the contact point is just below the joint. Your cue contacts the rail above the joint. Might as well make it 100% apples to apples.

Shankster,


I don't think that much matters that much but I will do it again tonight. Only take a minute.

To those who think this is the only way to check, I might advise that Rambow's way of watching the elevation of the joint for zero change when rolling with the joint unsupported is very telling also.

JMO,

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Good Idea. I also included a video of pin I just installed last night that was still mounted in the lathe. With all the talk about concentricity I though it would be appropriate to show what I think a pin tolerance should be. Many people also don't like my pin install method because they keep bringing it up after I shared my thoughts in this area as well.

After chucking my butt up in a tapered collet and indicating zero on the joint collar my tolerance for the pin is also zero but I have to settle for .00025 because my pin is chrome plated brass and there is a smige of chrome differential on the circumference of the pins nose where I indicate. I think he used a collet closer lathe to install the joint screw, insert and in boring that pilot hole .

I am all about repeatable results and really don't care what others want to call flawed as they have never tried my methods or Ray Schuler's either. The arguments about my facing moving or the by threads going off the parallel center line or taper contour if the shaft moves a hair is all theoretical BS.

BTW, Ray put his round pilots in his shaft stock right after putting on the initial taper. He ran on this chamfered end of the pilot from around .980 to his final joint dia. and his shafts were awesome.

Rick



The indicator reads in .0005 increments.

I don't like leaving a .010" gap where the barrel aligner goes and use quick drying epoxy then push the pin so the pilot indicates below half a thou. That's too much gap for me and I don't like the glue line it leaves. I don't like a quick drying epoxy either . I'm sticking with brass and G-10 joint screw more often b/c there is no need to torch them if the get bent on the field .

Ray's joint screw of choice was 5/16 14. A very forgiving screw . I believe they were all threads and the only stuck out half an inch or so.

Looks like the register is outside of the insert and the bored hole on the cue and the face . Not the minor of the joint screw .
There is nothing on that joint screw to indicate as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't call RBC's, Cutter's, DZ's , Eric Crisp's and Ryan's arguments as theoretical bs just yet .

 

[scdiveteam]

U

I don't like leaving a .010" gap where the barrel aligner goes and use quick drying epoxy then push the pin so the pilot indicates below half a thou. That's too much gap for me and I don't like the glue line it leaves. I don't like a quick drying epoxy either . I'm sticking with brass and G-10 joint screw more often b/c there is no need to torch them if the get bent on the field .

Ray's joint screw of choice was 5/16 14. A very forgiving screw . I believe they were all threads and the only stuck out half an inch or so.

Looks like the register is outside of the insert and the bored hole on the cue and the face . Not the minor of the joint screw .
There is nothing on that joint screw to indicate as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't call RBC's, Cutter's, DZ's , Eric Crisp's and Ryan's arguments as theoretical bs just yet .

Joey,

My reference to Ray's joint was only to point out that he put his threaded pilot insert in the shaft right after cutting the initial taper and then ran them all the way to final taper running off the chamfer on the ID of the alum pilot. I was only talking about the shaft and not his entire joint system. My concentric device pin driver does the same thing only I use a flat face joint with a big pin 3/8 14 tpi.

If the faces ran out or the threads did not remain parallel to the centerline and taper geometry when the shaft moved a little between passes, then I would be all ears to the claims of other's theories. It does not however or I must have a horseshoe up my butt and Ray must have been lucky for the 35 years of building shafts after he got his system in production.

What is funny is that Rays shafts were awesome and every shaft he made mated to every cue he made and the concentricity is always spot on. How many can say that. Concentricity is a funny thing, when you control all the parameters it works perfect creating a straight cue every time. If you want to make a great cue you must pay attention to every single detail.

I really don't care what you and the other guys do. I do what brings the results and tolerances I hold as a standard. I am sure they do as they please in their shops also. It is all about how high a standard one chooses to reach for.

I use a + 6500 psi epoxy on my joint pins and last time I checked that is 2 to 3 times stronger than the wood foundation. What was your point?

Glue line???? I counter sink on the face and don't go .010 over in the barrel hole. My barrel is .372 and my reamer is .3775. I am sure even your eyes can't look into the bottom of the counter sink and see <.003 annulus gap per side.???

JMO,

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

Shankster,

Here it is:

This shaft is not finished, it is right off the tapering machine. It has not been sanded and there is a grain raise on the surface from the wood hardener. So the shaft is not as attractive as DZs finished unit.

Just click on pic. May not work on all cell phones.





Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

My barrel is .372 and my reamer is .3775.

I can't over those numbers Rick.
You actually have a reamer down to .0005" ? Why .3775' ?
.3770" is not good enough ?
What's wrong with reaming it with .372' ???? Like the barrel size ?

 

[scdiveteam]

I

I can't over those numbers Rick.
You actually have a reamer down to .0005" ? Why .3775' ?
.3770" is not good enough ?
What's wrong with reaming it with .372' ???? Like the barrel size ?

Joey,

I ordered it that way. It took me a few reamers to find Goldielocks. Not too loose, not too tight but "Just Right". All part of my protocol.

Joe, I have a question or two Also. When you bore your pin's barrel size does your pin indicate zero. If it is off a thou or two in that hole, what would be your next step? What is your pin tolerance for run out on a Joey Cue.

Have you ever conducted multiple pin pull out destructive tests to examine the pin, epoxy and wood interfaces after pull outs. Do you glass bead blast the barrel and embedment threads before installing your pin.

None of my business of course. Just being nosey.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

I


Joey,

I ordered it that way. It took me a few reamers to find Goldielocks. Not too loose, not too tight but "Just Right". All part of my protocol.

Joe, I have a question or two Also. When you bore your pin's barrel size does your pin indicate zero. If it is off a thou or two in that hole, what would be your next step? What is your pin tolerance for run out on a Joey Cue.

Have you ever conducted multiple pin pull out destructive tests to examine the pin, epoxy and wood interfaces after pull outs. Do you glass bead blast the barrel and embedment threads before installing your pin.

None of my business of course. Just being nosey.

Rick

If off by more than a thou . I can easily correct it with my jig.
I've never had a pin come off or buzz on west 206 .
I brush wheel scratch them and mill or grind slots at the bottom.

 

[scdiveteam]

If it off by more than a thou . I can easily correct it with my jig.
I've nevwr had a pin come off or buzz on west 206 .
I brush wheel scratch them and mill or grind slots at the bottom.

Joey,

If it is off, do you plug the hole and start over? Or is it perfect everytime? If not, you would be boring the hole bigger?

I have never had a pin fail either and I nail the TRO between 0 and .00025 every time and that it the reading after the epoxy is cured overnight.

So if we are both getting the tolerance we want and our pins are solidly anchored with a zero failure rate, then all is good to go.

Rick

PS. I also have a special Goldie Chucking reamer in 3/8 16 for the minor of the pins threads within the hole. It took me 4 reamer purchases to get that parameter where I like it.

All my research concerning epoxy reveals that when clamping epoxy in place you are not supposed to clamp with a lot of pressure when wood is stock being epoxied. Just a hold pressure is required so that there is not a lot of squeeze out.

In a hole you can't clamp. Epoxy is an glue but also a structural component as well. Too tight is not always the best way to go. IMO. We all have our own bend the the brim.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

If it is off, do you plug the hole and start over? Or is it perfect everytime? If not, you would be boring the hole bigger?

I have never had a pin fail either and I nail the TRO between 0 and .00025 every time and that it the reading after the epoxy is cured overnight.

So if we are both getting the tolerance we want and our pins are solidly anchored with a zero failure rate, then all is good to go.

Rick

PS. I also have a special Goldie Chucking reamer in 3/8 16 for the minor of the pins threads within the hole. It took me 4 reamer purchases to get that parameter where I like it.

All my research concerning epoxy reveals that when clamping epoxy in place you are not supposed to clamp with a lot of pressure when wood is stock being epoxied. Just a hold pressure is required so that there is not a lot of squeeze out.

In a hole you can't clamp. Epoxy is an glue but also a structural component as well. Too tight is not always the best way to go. IMO. We all have our own bend the the brim.

If the hole got too big or crooked, I plug it up with 9/16 18 plug with over sized top .
I haven't had one go crooked on me since I switch to Makita router and end-mill to bore drill the hole . If the hole for the barrel got over a thou or two, it's an easy fix. I have never had any need to bore that hole more than 2 thou. Anything more than that means the bottom is really off so you'd need more wiggle .
I've chopped a stainless steel and brass screw to make life easier in sizing the barrel hole.
I've used the strongest epoxies. 3M DP series and West . There is some things you can do with West 206 that you can't do with the cartridge type epoxies . And West has a few advantages. I'd leave it for some to find out as West System's processes are actually very easy to research.
I've mixed a small batch and put that mix on my lathe pan. Hammered it two days later and it would not break or give . The biggest disadvantage of West 206 is it will take a loooong time and a lot of heat to pull an off screw .

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Shankster,

Here it is:

This shaft is not finished, it is right off the tapering machine. It has not been sanded and there is a grain raise on the surface from the wood hardener. So the shaft is not as attractive as DZs finished unit.

Just click on pic. May not work on all cell phones.





Rick

Not sure if it's you holding your camera or not, but I notice a distinct change in the tip height of that shaft. Maybe you can be bother for once in this thread to do something the way people are asking you to do it? Set the camera down so that the picture is stable. Once we get an idea of what stable is, we can then comment on your straightness. But for what I see, that tip is moving up and down a good 1/2 inch.

 

[venison-slayer]

Shaft

Not sure if it's you holding your camera or not, but I notice a distinct change in the tip height of that shaft. Maybe you can be bother for once in this thread to do something the way people are asking you to do it? Set the camera down so that the picture is stable. Once we get an idea of what stable is, we can then comment on your straightness. But for what I see, that tip is moving up and down a good 1/2 inch.

You must have the best eyes as I could not see the tip long enough in that vid for it to move 1/2 inch

 

[scdiveteam]

Not sure if it's you holding your camera or not, but I notice a distinct change in the tip height of that shaft. Maybe you can be bother for once in this thread to do something the way people are asking you to do it? Set the camera down so that the picture is stable. Once we get an idea of what stable is, we can then comment on your straightness. But for what I see, that tip is moving up and down a good 1/2 inch.

I was holding my phone and rolling the cue and there is no stabilization on my camera phone.

The shaft contour can not look straight like that and have the tip move. It is not possible.

I guess I will have to use a better video camera that is fixed to have and stabilized camera lens feature to get great videos like Bob's. I am new to doing videos and need to get better at it and also get a tripod.

Rick

 

[buddha162]

I guess I will have to use a better video camera that is fixed to have and stabilized camera lens feature to get great videos like Bob's.

Just put the phone down for godsake. Nothing is easy for you is it?

 

[scdiveteam]

Just put the phone down for godsake. Nothing is easy for you is it?

Buddha,

Patience grasshopper. Take is slow and easy.

You missed my point, without a tripod I can't do it. The test station area for rolling a cue in my shop is not a pool table. It is a constructed flat area in the center of my assembly table and it is at an elevation of about 54" off the floor.

Tripod will make it easy!:wink:

Rick

 

[Dave38]

Shankster,

Here it is:

This shaft is not finished, it is right off the tapering machine. It has not been sanded and there is a grain raise on the surface from the wood hardener. So the shaft is not as attractive as DZs finished unit.

Just click on pic. May not work on all cell phones.





Rick

I only saw about 2-3 seconds of the tip of the cue thru out the whole video time, not enough to show anything....I would advise you to have your buddy roll the cue while you focus on the camera work and concentrate on showing the top 2/3 rds of the shaft instead of the joint collar, JMO.
Dave

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I was holding my phone and rolling the cue and there is no stabilization on my camera phone.

The shaft contour can not look straight like that and have the tip move. It is not possible.

I guess I will have to use a better video camera that is fixed to have and stabilized camera lens feature to get great videos like Bob's. I am new to doing videos and need to get better at it and also get a tripod.

Rick

Buddha,

Patience grasshopper. Take is slow and easy.

You missed my point, without a tripod I can't do it. The test station area for rolling a cue in my shop is not a pool table. It is a constructed flat area in the center of my assembly table and it is at an elevation of about 54" off the floor.

Tripod will make it easy!:wink:

Rick

A table works just as well as a tripod. You seriously can't settle on just doing something, it has to be done perfectly? A table won't work, must use tripod!!!! For someone who wants to focus so much on the engineering concept of his work, your comprehension levels seem way to low for you to even understand the engineering you're attempting to do. So many super simple things people have asked of you to do in this thread. Instead of letting it be as simple as it should be, you think you can improve on it. Your improvements seem to be making things more complicated than it should be. Same goes for your joint pin/insert. You've over thought a simple solution. It's obvious that you won't ever do things in such a manner that it can be explained without sounding like an ass. You like trying to flex your knowledge by typing a lot and using big words. But if the sentence structure doesn't support the usage of those big words, guess who is the true idiot. You.

Step 1: place camera on table.
Step 2: ?????
Step 3: profit

Oh wait. This isn't South Park. First we must buy camera with stabilization feature, then buy tripod!! We can keep going on making fun of you Rick, but it's just time to let it go. You aren't as innovative as you believe. The reason more people don't do things your way is because they are truly flawed techniques.