joint pin question

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

You have lost sight of the forest for the trees!

Ray Schuler tapered turned all his shafts on the aluminum pilot barrel between centers on a cnc lathe. Same deal!

I worked on 100s of his shafts and you know, I never saw any of his shafts with a taper roll either.

JMO,

Rick

And the secret was installing the insert EARLY ?
Would they have been crooked had he turned them between TRUE centers then installed the insert on final size?

 

[Chrippa]

For the record, Love your shafts Rick. They play great , they roll true, the finish is superb.

Players view.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Regards

Chrippa

 

[scdiveteam]

And the secret was installing the insert EARLY ?
Would they have been crooked had he turned them between TRUE centers then installed the insert on final size?

Maybe maybe not.

At final if your threads are installed canted just a hair what is the amplification of the angle 29 inches away. That is my point. Not everybody has equipment running as true as DZ.

If you are a freak machinist like Bob that can live thread a shaft then hook it up to a motor and spin it un supported and have it look like it is standing still I guess all is good. Now tell me Joey how many shafts in the world will pass that smell test? I know how mine would do.

When you thread first the centerline and taper contour is running true with the threads as soon as you make the first pass. Even if your chuck is not running true perfectly the method will correct the concentricity. Like boring in reverse. Of course you have to dial in the pin device to zero before you install the center. Lets not forget that step.

I am not telling you how to build your cue anyway. Don't be so serious.

I notice that there are a lot of guys who have problems truing their Taig chucks all the time. This might be something for them to try if their shafts are coming out less than their desired results.

If your shafts are dead perfect every time, then keep on your journey as is and I am happy for you and everyone else. It never hurts to wrap your brain around a different concept. There a many ways to skin a cat me thinks.

I always like to keep an open mind. I don't knock anything with out trial and testing.

Good cue making Joey,

Rick

 

[whammo57]

Seems like nit picking to me..... make the hole and tap the hole........ early or late........ what does it matter if the shaft ends up straight...... ???

If the threaded hole ends up a fraction of a degree off center line but the joint facing is perfectly flat and at 90 deg to the butt and to the shaft.... when you screw them together, the joint will align the 2 halves and it will be perfectly straight........ and it will roll straight.

I contend that the amount you are all talking about is not even measurable........ No one has actually shown the supposed error in a real measurement. Seems like simple prejudicial conjecture to me,

I insert and tap my shaft blanks, install the insert, drill and tap them when the tips are at .750. I finish turn the shafts between centers using the chamfer of the tapped hole and the center drilled hole on the tip. I finalize the joint concentricity and size using a carbide sanding mandrel............. never had a problem...... have a few shafts gone south.... sure, I lose a few but who doesn't?

My cues are straight when I deliver them and they are still straight a year or 2 later.............



much ado about nothing................ but is sure helps to maintain the AZ forum's shitty reputation........... post and get bashed.........

Kim

 

[ratcues]

I insert and tap my shaft blanks, install the insert, drill and tap them when the tips are at .750. I finish turn the shafts between centers using the chamfer of the tapped hole and the center drilled hole on the tip. I finalize the joint concentricity and size using a carbide sanding mandrel............. never had a problem...... have a few shafts gone south.... sure, I lose a few but who doesn't?

Here's the point: you lose a few with your method because the shaft moved through the turning process and made your thread vary from the centerline and you see no problem with that. Had you waited until the last turn to install your insert or cut your threads, you remove the risk AND save the labor of install/threading. At the size you are threading, small shaft movements could be turned out and corrected without risking the concentricity of the threads.

This has not been a bashing thread, IMO. You and Rick are desperately trying to justify your methods against cue makers that have made hundreds, if not thousands of cues and are sharing their experience to show why your described method has a potential risk that could be avoided.

No one is telling you not to do it. If it works for you, by all means, go ahead and carry on. But this constant effort to justify against the risk is stubborn and, dare I say, egotistical.



<~~shaft spinning megalomaniac

 

[scdiveteam]

Here's the point: you lose a few with your method because the shaft moved through the turning process and made your thread vary from the centerline and you see no problem with that. Had you waited until the last turn to install your insert or cut your threads, you remove the risk AND save the labor of install/threading. At the size you are threading, small shaft movements could be turned out and corrected without risking the concentricity of the threads.

This has not been a bashing thread, IMO. You and Rick are desperately trying to justify your methods against cue makers that have made hundreds, if not thousands of cues and are sharing their experience to show why your described method has a potential risk that could be avoided.

No one is telling you not to do it. If it works for you, by all means, go ahead and carry on. But this constant effort to justify against the risk is stubborn and, dare I say, egotistical.



<~~shaft spinning megalomaniac

Hi Ryan,

I don't think Kim uses a concentricity pin as I have described here. We have different methods for sure.

You are absolutely right, no one is telling anyone what to do but it is a good brain exercise to think and discuss all methods.


Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Seems like nit picking to me..... make the hole and tap the hole........ early or late........ what does it matter if the shaft ends up straight...... ???

If the threaded hole ends up a fraction of a degree off center line but the joint facing is perfectly flat and at 90 deg to the butt and to the shaft.... when you screw them together, the joint will align the 2 halves and it will be perfectly straight........ and it will roll straight.

I contend that the amount you are all talking about is not even measurable........ No one has actually shown the supposed error in a real measurement. Seems like simple prejudicial conjecture to me,

I insert and tap my shaft blanks, install the insert, drill and tap them when the tips are at .750. I finish turn the shafts between centers using the chamfer of the tapped hole and the center drilled hole on the tip. I finalize the joint concentricity and size using a carbide sanding mandrel............. never had a problem...... have a few shafts gone south.... sure, I lose a few but who doesn't?

My cues are straight when I deliver them and they are still straight a year or 2 later.............



much ado about nothing................ but is sure helps to maintain the AZ forum's shitty reputation........... post and get bashed.........

Kim

.750" end ? I thought it was .590" ?

No one has actually shown the supposed error in a real measurement. Seems like simple prejudicial conjecture to me,

I believe Conetip did .

What would happen if you tapped that hole when you are at 14MM tip ?
Thread and center hole it for the next 4 passes ?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hi Ryan,

I don't think Kim uses a concentricity pin as I have described here. We have different methods for sure.

You are absolutely right, no one is telling anyone what to do but it is a good brain exercise to think and discuss all methods.


Rick

You mean like someone clueless about parabolic taper questioning how the A-joint size can be less than 1"?
You gotta take the good with the bad .

 

[ratcues]

The larger point is threading or tapping an over-sized shaft and assuming that any and all shafts will not move during subsequent turnings. That is a big assumption with wood and, what most of us feel, is an unnecessary risk.

 

[qbilder]

Rick & Kim, purely out of curiosity, do you apply the same logic to installing the joint pin? As in, do you install the pin when the butt is oversize, then make final cuts using the pin's center?

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick & Kim, purely out of curiosity, do you apply the same logic to installing the joint pin? As in, do you install the pin when the butt is oversize, then make final cuts using the pin's center?

No I don't Eric.

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

No I don't Eric.

Rick

Technically, you can do the same process for your inserts.
HAH!
Send me doodles.

 

[qbilder]

No I don't Eric.

Rick

Why not? Does the same logic not apply?

 

[whammo57]

Rick & Kim, purely out of curiosity, do you apply the same logic to installing the joint pin? As in, do you install the pin when the butt is oversize, then make final cuts using the pin's center?

I install the pin at final size.............. good point..... LOL

Kim

 

[scdiveteam]

Post deleted

 

[qbilder]

Rick, why would me being honest about realistic expectations somehow cramp your style? Are you really going to use that quote to attack me? Do you really think I would write it if I didn't absolutely believe it to be honest & true? Why should I feel ashamed or inferior because I posted something true?

 

[scdiveteam]

:grin:

Rick, why would me being honest about realistic expectations somehow cramp your style? Are you really going to use that quote to attack me? Do you really think I would write it if I didn't absolutely believe it to be honest & true? Why should I feel ashamed or inferior because I posted something true?

We all have different standards I guess?

If you are ok with shafts that roll and want to ship them that way it is your business. You want to try and discredit one of my posts which reaches for a higher standard you have that right also. Sorry I missed that point.

My turn to get some pop corn.:grin:

Rick

 

[RBC]

:grin:

We all have different standards I guess?

If you are ok with shafts that roll and want to ship them that way it is your business. You want to try and discredit one of my posts which reaches for a higher standard you have that right also. Sorry I missed that point.

My turn to get some pop corn.:grin:

Rick

Rick

This is a perfect example of the rub associated with your posts.

Many here have questioned your method, but few have condoned you for using it.

But, when you refer to someone else, who is a very well respected cue maker, you automatically state publicly that because he doesn't use your method he is accepting lower standards and shipping cues that are not straight.

Regardless of how you build your cues or whatever your construction methods are, YOU are a disrespectful hypocrite with no just cause or reason.

I'm very happy that you like your methods. But, you have no right to make the statements that you have made.

The issue is not that others are questioning your method. The issue is that you believe it's the only way to make a straight cue and anyone not using it is making sub-standard cues. Based on that position, you are saying that you are the only cue maker who makes straight cues. Probably the only one in the world. I happen to disagree with that.

Good luck to you and yours.


Royce

 

[scdiveteam]

Royce,

I am guilty of confusing an issue for sure and you are right to call me out so let me clarify here.

Guys like Eric, Joey and some others for example have been putting their two cents in a condescending way in reference to my posts using baited questions and implying that I am disingenuous. I assure you Royce that assumption is false. Eric has a history of making comments that I am BSing the forum and sediments to that end with absolutely no reason other than being a troll with attitude. IMHO

So today after his questioning how I install a joint pin I decided to give him a taste of his own medicine. So I took a quote from a thread from a few weeks ago (Radial Pin Joint now on page 3 Ask the Cuemaker) whereby he made some statements to a guy who had received a cue with a loose pin and taper roll and some how he should accept that as good workmanship because the builder did the best he could. Pleeeese!


So today I posted his quote "his words" to show that how ridiculous his remarks compared to my sharing one method with this form. 1/32 wobble is not something to sneeze at the new shaft in that condition and should have been replaced for a customer who is not happy. How long would you be in this shaft business (your bread and butter) with that attitude and how "well respected" would you be if you had a policy of shipping shafts like that in your biz.

Call me an idiot but when a business person forgets that Customer is King, it is only a matter of time.

After posting the quote I thought better about my actions and decided to retract it within minutes. ( Post Deleted ) Now that you have made your statements to me, so I now need to clarify by posting it again.

It's 1/32" wobble. Seriously, any attempt to correct that minute run out would greatly risk doing undue damage to the cue. Chucking it up to indicate to zero sounds awesome and technical when BSing on the forum, but let's see somebody actually do it in the shop without damaging the finish. Now what if the joint pin is slightly off center? You have to heat the pin to remove it, then re-machine and fit a new pin. Try doing that without damaging the finish. So the facing is slightly off? Ok. Reface everything & then see how flush the shaft mates to the butt. It won't. It'll need a refinish.

Point being, playing arm chair quarterback is easy. Doing the work is a different story. I wouldn't want to do it. Don't get me wrong, if it's grossly misaligned and terribly sloppy then yeah it needs reworked. But the builder thought it was good when he sent it out, and more than likely is feeling pressured to fix a cue that has nothing wrong with it. From the OP's descriptions, if accurate, there's nothing wrong with the cue. It's a risk to try redoing anything. The fix may result in something worse than original.

I'm humbly proud of the cue work I do, and I have no issue saying that I often send out cues that have slight wobble. Granted, your face has to be on the table watching for variations in the light shining under the shaft, or else you'd never know it. But I NEVER produce a perfect cue. Never have, never will. I would if I could but I can't. I'm not that good. I don't know anybody who is. If it happens to me, then it's an accident. I'm not that good, and it's because of the issues I spoke of in my previous post. If this were my cue, I would feel helpless because the buyer expects me to be better than I am actually capable of. We're talking at max a credit card thickness of roll. Exactly what needs fixed? Sounds pretty damned straight to me. 58" cone with at least two different tapers, one of which is a curved taper, at least 2 jointed areas, and only a credit card thickness of flaw over the entire length. Sounds to me like the guy did a quality, professional job. It sounds to me like the OP didn't like the loose fitting joint, which means he isn't happy, and any perceived issue beyond that will only further displease him, even if it's not really an issue at all. I sure wouldn't want to be the builder.

Customers don't care about how hard it is to make a cue.

Apparently in that minute or two Eric saw it and defended the position he has stated without the quote.

Now that you have seen the aftermath of that exchange I now wanted to set the record straight.

I don't believe a customer of a brand new custom cue should have to accept a cue with roll or a loose pin interface.

Obviously some do not agree with me but that is nothing new.

How about you Royce. Are loose pins and a 1/32" roll alright from your perspective.

Anyone who has read this thread and disagrees with my stated method is surely entitled to make a comment and disagree with it but I will defend myself when the situation dictates same where my character questioned. It can be done with respect.

I posted some videos of a typical shaft using my method and Joey for example makes the insinuation that some how I may have doctored the shaft and faced it after the tapering process. What's that all about. It is childish. If I had done something like that it certainly would not looked the way it did in the wood lathe. Oh, maybe I substituted another shaft in the lathe to BS the forum. Yea right!

This forum could be such a much better place if people had better manners and respect even if they disagree.

So paint the picture any way anyone wants.

I will make shafts the way I do and will let others do as they will. Sharing information that is not agreeable to some must degrade into bantering. Why?

I have been honest here and have answered your questions and you have been a professional and only disagreed with me. I respectfully re submit that all my faces are 90 degrees to the threads and that the threads are concentric to the taper even after a shaft moves. If you don't want to accept that, I won't lose any sleep about it but will still respect you just the same. As it should be among men.

I believe every one who does not agree with my statements and method did so with dogmatic thinking based on their own personal experience with another way. I never tried to disagree with their way but only tried to point out that if you don't try it, it makes no sense to knock it. Pretty simple notion.

Anyone who has taken the time to read my posts will see that I have been consistent to the enth degree. I don't want anyone to change a thing in their methods and I never implied that at any time. I am sorry that you or anyone else felt that I implied that taping after yapering is somehow sub standard. Never thought that way and never implied it either.


JMO,

Rick

 

[Dave38]

So far Rick, the only person to call another person names, such as stupid or unintelligent, or outright stated that person isn't smart enough to converse with you, and accused anyone of sub-par work......., has been you. Everyone that has questioned your 'described' procedure and has pointed out the flaws that can occur using your 'supposed' method and the claims you have made, against basic machining principle, etc. have not used disparaging words, nor called you names nor accused you of sub-par work. You are the ONLY one that has done name calling. Kim has accused the forum of Bashing, but the only one that has bashed (by the actual definition of bash), has been you once people pointed out your BS. You intentionally spewed a bunch of big words that contradicted each other which you defended as 'that's the way I talk all the time', but since then you have not done the gobbledegook BS but you have dodged some very specific questions about your 'method'. Hell, you even tried to drag political beliefs into it... really?
You have even annoyed Royce, which I haven't seen here until now. He is the most mild guy here and goes out of his way to not cause a ripple, and considering how many shafts he has made...........enough said. Give it up.... You may think you have shook up the 'establishment with your 'radical' thoughts, but really you've just shown the world that you're too egotistical to realize when you've been busted.
Have a great weekend everyone, and realize no one lives or dies by this stuff, but someone may spend $$$$ following non-truths stated here, if not challenged. Don't let it be you
Dave