Judging your speed

jmizzo

jmizzo

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I am trying to figure out where I rank in playing pool. I am no where near a short stop, but when you only play bar pool and local tourneys you really cant judge how good you are comparatively. I read alot of people write, "I'm an SL5, or I played a SL7." I figure that its a way to give weight, but what does that mean?

Assuming no safeties, and just trying to run out, what does each average.

SL7 - average running 7 balls an average inning.
SL6- average 6
so on an so forth.

Around here the tournaments are like A, B, open/,masters.
 
jmizzo said:
So I am trying to figure out where I rank in playing pool. I am no where near a short stop, but when you only play bar pool and local tourneys you really cant judge how good you are comparatively. I read alot of people write, "I'm an SL5, or I played a SL7." I figure that its a way to give weight, but what does that mean?

Assuming no safeties, and just trying to run out, what does each average.

SL7 - average running 7 balls an average inning.
SL6- average 6
so on an so forth.

Around here the tournaments are like A, B, open/,masters.
Click to expand...


The rating systems you are listing above are designed for Handicap league play such as the APA, TAP, or others. The BCA also use a similar system for ranking their players but the systems in most cases do not equal A, B, C, Open, or Masters ratings.

I think this confuses allot of people, the main reason is because none of the current leagues prepare a player for Pro-open play. I have always thought that league play should be stepping stones for professional play, such as starting with the APA, then moving to the BCA, but then there is a very large dead space with professional play some where ahead.

I think the best way to rate your game is to play in as many large events you can sign up for, and then use those events to establish where you currently stand by your performance.

JIMO
 
I like to think that ratings are based on your results, not statistics based on what you do at the table. Like it or not, some people tend to just win, and in pool that matters.

C or sl5 and under - Will only cash in B and under tournaments

B or sl6 and 7- Has a decent chance at cashing in local open tournaments and might cash in a regional tournament if the stars align.

A - Will cash in and occasionally win local tournaments. Has a decent chance at cashing and might even place high in a big regional event if in stroke.

Shortstop - Will cash in regional events, usually placing high with a good chance of winning.

Pro - Will cash in any regional event they enter. Will win a good percentage of these as long as there are no top pros present. If in stroke, might do well at big open events and pro events.

Top pro - Will cash in anything they enter. Is very likely to win any regional tournament they enter unless other top pros are also in attendance. Has a chance at snapping off a few world titles and US Opens over a lifetime of play.

Note that the skill required to get to each level increases exponentially. The difference between a pro and a top pro is like night and day where as B players might vary in play from C to A on any given night.
 
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I use to think handicapping system were cool, now I realized most NON Pro Players. play sporadically. IMHO The only way to establish a Pool Handicapping System is honestly over time, on each game, like One Pocket, 14/1, 9 Ball etc., than also factor in table size.

Way too complicated, but if you have to have a Handicapping System, think "A", "B", & "C" works better then a 9 or 10 Step System like we have in AZ that START with a "4" Beginner, and goes to 10-2 PRO?

Also the complication of a Handicapping System is the people who Sand BAG, and Play the Game of Playing UNDER TRUE SPEED.

Honestly if I played Golf against Tiger Woods, or One Pocket against Scott Frost for money, and both spotted me the World, I would still finish BROKE.

The other thing I would see as an an advantage for a "Three Step System", of "A", "B", & "C" it would help to eliminate the variables for Game like One Pocket, 14/1, 9 Ball, and Table size Bar Box verses Full size, or 8 Footer, or Ten Footer.

"C"s would be beginners

"B"s would be Intermediates

and the "A" Would be the Best, Short Stops, and Pros.

I have heard the argument of with only 3 Step in the of the "A", "B", & "C" System the "A" would clean out all the Events, but in the Valley of the sun there are so many event, the "A" could not hit em all. Plus Room Owners could bar any player they wish.


 
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CocoboloCowboy said:
Way too complicated, but if you have to have a Handicapping System, think "A", "B", & "C" works better then a 9 or 10 Step System like we have in AZ that START with a "4" Beginner, and goes to 10-2 PRO?

"C"s would be beginners

"B"s would be Intermediates

and the "A" Would be the Best, Short Stops, and Pros.

I have heard the argument of with only 3 Step in the of the "A", "B", & "C" System the "A" would clean out all the Events, but in the Valley of the sun there are so many event, the "A" could not hit em all. Plus Room Owners could bar any player they wish.
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So a C would be a beginner, you mean like a 4 or 5. A B would be intermediate, something like 6, 7, or 8. An A player would have to be real good like maybe a 9, 10, 10-1, or even 10-2.

How many times are you going to make this argument before you realize that they are the same thing? The Arizona system is better because it is more defined. I really don't understand why you are pushing for the same thing you already have, actually something worse.
 
Look at it this way. If you enter a local tournament that designates no "A" players and constantly win you would be considered by them to be a "A" player and then be banned from playing in it.

If you enter a local tournament that is open you will soon find out where you are compared to the other players. It is not hard to judge yourself.

In the open tournaments you will have the chance to play against all types of players and you will definitely be able to see the difference in the skills of the players.

It is like any sport. You will know who is the best by watching them play and that is determined by the results.
 
Craig...I disagree that social leagues, such as APA, VNEA & TAP, should be viewed, organized, or managed as 'training grounds' for professional players. These are social leagues, and were never intended for anything other than recreatiional play. BCAPL is somewhat different, as the majority of league players are somewhat serious about their games...and as such Mark Griffin has provided an impetus towards an avenue to the pro ranks. Let's keep things in perspective. If the OP is looking for a way to test his skills, all he has to do is enter any of the regional tours (Ozone, Joss, Predator, etc). He'll find out in a hurry how far he is from being a truly skilled player (or perhaps he'll find he can hold his own).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

manwon said:
The rating systems you are listing above are designed for Handicap league play such as the APA, TAP, or others. The BCA also use a similar system for ranking their players but the systems in most cases do not equal A, B, C, Open, or Masters ratings.

I think this confuses allot of people, the main reason is because none of the current leagues prepare a player for Pro-open play. I have always thought that league play should be stepping stones for professional play, such as starting with the APA, then moving to the BCA, but then there is a very large dead space with professional play some where ahead.

I think the best way to rate your game is to play in as many large events you can sign up for, and then use those events to establish where you currently stand by your performance.

JIMO
Click to expand...
 
brandoncook26 said:
So a C would be a beginner, you mean like a 4 or 5. A B would be intermediate, something like 6, 7, or 8. An A player would have to be real good like maybe a 9, 10, 10-1, or even 10-2.

How many times are you going to make this argument before you realize that they are the same thing? The Arizona system is better because it is more defined. I really don't understand why you are pushing for the same thing you already have, actually something worse.
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Exactly Brandon!

There are so many more levels of play than just ABC. Many places that once had just these 3 now also have Open, Master, AA, and D. Pretty soon they'll have as many as Arizona.

Yes, players flux up and down, but overtime they fall in a pretty good category.

When I was on the Rating Committee I learned so much about judging players speeds. And I think it helped lift my game as well. We judged HOW people play the game and not just results (although they were a factor too). Speed Control, Position Play, Patterns, Shot Making, Use of English and when to use it or NOT use it, Banking, Safes, etc. etc.

Diluting the system only benefits the players that are at the top of their new rating. For Instance if Arizona switched to ABC, 8's and 7's would be B, 6's,5's,4's would be C. Who is going to win those tournaments in even races?
 
stuckart said:
Diluting the system only benefits the players that are at the top of their new rating. For Instance if Arizona switched to ABC, 8's and 7's would be B, 6's,5's,4's would be C. Who is going to win those tournaments in even races?
Click to expand...


Well if it was 9 or 10 BALL you have the LUCK FACTOR, and as I said most NON Pro Players run Hot & Cold, or as some like to call it inconsistent.

So if it is One Pocket, Straight Pool, or 8 Ball the player who is playing the BEST THAT NIGHT WINS.

Just like Pro Pool, where one small mistake is the difference between Johnny, or Earl coming in first.

JMHO.
 
Here's how I see it....

D player - can run a couple of balls, unlikely to run out a full rack very often
C player - with an open table, will typically run 4-5 balls, can run an open table but not very often, might have a 2 or 3 pack on a bar table resume
B player - threat to run out every time they get a shot at a nice open layout, has a 3-4 pack on the resume and has a local reputation for being a solid player
A player - threat to run 2-3 packs when at the table, always cashes in local tournies, everybody knows who they are, they have all the shots...
Almost pro/short-stop - best guy in town, local heavy that people feel confident matching up against tough road players, game reminds you of the quality you see on tv....
 
For 9-Ball, you can play the ghost. Attempt to run 10 racks with ball in hand and get an average. There are a couple of reference charts online for 9-Ball Ghost so you can compare yourself to ABCD rating for 9-ball.

The APA has two rating scales, 2-7 for 8-ball, and 2-10 for 9-ball. I was told the general rule of thumb for 9-ball was based on the average number of balls you can run. Also, APA handicap can be adjusted by the league operator, usually in the aim of retaining the maximum number of players, so everyone has a chance to win. For example an APA 4 coming from a top heavy league may be equal to a APA 6 coming from a bottom heavy league.

APA 8-ball and Texas Express 9-ball are two different games, generally played on different sized tables. The majority of APA 8-ball are played on 7 foot tables, aka Bar Boxes. 9-Ball are usually played on 9 foot tables in poolhalls. I've been told that 8-ball on a 7 foot table is harder than on a 9 foot table, while 9-ball on a 7 foot table is easier than on a 9 foot table.
 
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Scott,

I also agree with Manwon on his view of the leagues.

I compare leagues to our school system. Kindergarten is bangers. APA and other bar 8-ball bar leagues are elementary schools. BCA and 9-ball leagues are intermediate and junior high school. The open tournaments are like GED exams. When I read postings here from people that they can't get better playing in leagues, its they have likely outgrown competition in their current league. If you're playing at a junior high school level, you're not going to get better beating up second and third graders.

Henry



Scott Lee said:
Craig...I disagree that social leagues, such as APA, VNEA & TAP, should be viewed, organized, or managed as 'training grounds' for professional players. These are social leagues, and were never intended for anything other than recreatiional play. BCAPL is somewhat different, as the majority of league players are somewhat serious about their games...and as such Mark Griffin has provided an impetus towards an avenue to the pro ranks. Let's keep things in perspective. If the OP is looking for a way to test his skills, all he has to do is enter any of the regional tours (Ozone, Joss, Predator, etc). He'll find out in a hurry how far he is from being a truly skilled player (or perhaps he'll find he can hold his own).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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ctyhntr said:
Scott,

I also agree with Manwon on his view of the leagues.

I compare leagues to our school system. Kindergarten is bangers. APA and other bar 8-ball bar leagues are elementary schools. BCA and 9-ball leagues are intermediate and junior high school. The open tournaments are like GED exams. When I read postings here from people that they can't get better playing in leagues, its they have likely outgrown competition in their current league. If you're playing at a junior high school level, you're not going to get better beating up second and third graders.

Henry
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This.....

I pretty much stopped playing regularly at my old pool hall because I became the big fish in a small pond. A banger among bangers, so to speak. Not to say I dont play pretty solid, but in the greater scheme of things, I suck :thumbup:

Continue to raise the bar. Thats how progress is made. Small gradual steps.

I participated in the APA for several years until I reached the top of the handicap spectrum in both 8 ball and 9 ball. Then I quit. It was time to move on. Most nights the decent players on the opposing teams would duck me, and throw some poor beginner out to get slaughtered.

Surround yourself with great players, and as long as your fundamentals are solid, it is nearly impossible to not improve.

My friends give me $hit because I get into tough games with tough players.... Its in an investment.
 
I can give some info on APA 8ball rankings as I understand the system fairly well from what info is available. As said previously, it's from 2 to 7, with 7 being the highest. The system is really based on inning count (an inning is basically both players getting to shoot) minus defensive shots taken.

SL7 - averages 0 to 2 innings per game won minus defensive shots
SL6 - averages 2 to 3 innings per game won minus defensive shots
SL5 - averages 3 to 4 innings per game won minus defensive shots
SL4 - averages 4 to 5 innings per game won minus defensive shots
SL3 - averages 5 to 7 innings per game won minus defensive shots
SL2 - more than 7 innings per game won minus defensive shots

That is not to say that is that number per game, but over the course of the match. A 7 playing a 7 is a race to 5, so that number could be after 5 wins in 9 games.

So, how that relates to AA/A/B/C in 8 ball all matters on the 8 ball tournament and how they rank them. I'm currently a strong SL5 in APA 8-ball and was told that I'd probably be a B player in the MPA (Midwest Pool Association) tournament that was held here several weeks ago. Other people would see me play and think, no way is he a B player, he's a C player (especially if I was playing 9ball).

Brian
 
BryanBpool said:
I participated in the APA for several years until I reached the top of the handicap spectrum in both 8 ball and 9 ball. Then I quit. It was time to move on. Most nights the decent players on the opposing teams would duck me, and throw some poor beginner out to get slaughtered.
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As a captain of APA teams for several years I'll tell you that I rarely toss up a low rank against a 6 or a 7. That is not to say I never do that, as sometimes it's very advantageous (especially during playoffs/city tournaments). But, for the most part I ask my team members "who wants to play John" or whoever. Normally one of the 5's or 6's on my team will speak up as they want the challenge. I don't care if they win or lose, because I want them to have fun! I also want the 7's in the league to have fun so they can stay in it as you learn a lot from them. Normally if one of my team members doesn't want to play the 7, I'll play them as I love the challenge (which normally one of them wants to).

For me my APA team is #1 about having fun every week for my team as well as the other team. Which is why I play APA, it's a fun time out for my wife and I once a week and I want to keep it fun.

Brian
 
Brian, as an SL5, have you ever won the Friday night tournament at CR's? That was my home pool room for years while living in the twin cities, mostly during lunch. Now I live in the land of valley tables, I miss diamonds.

JMizzo
 
btoneill said:
As a captain of APA teams for several years I'll tell you that I rarely toss up a low rank against a 6 or a 7. That is not to say I never do that, as sometimes it's very advantageous (especially during playoffs/city tournaments). But, for the most part I ask my team members "who wants to play John" or whoever. Normally one of the 5's or 6's on my team will speak up as they want the challenge. I don't care if they win or lose, because I want them to have fun! I also want the 7's in the league to have fun so they can stay in it as you learn a lot from them. Normally if one of my team members doesn't want to play the 7, I'll play them as I love the challenge (which normally one of them wants to).

For me my APA team is #1 about having fun every week for my team as well as the other team. Which is why I play APA, it's a fun time out for my wife and I once a week and I want to keep it fun.

Brian
Click to expand...

This is what the APA should be. =] Good for you for running your team as such.

Ill even cut ya some slack for spelling your name wrong ;-)
 
jmizzo said:
So I am trying to figure out where I rank in playing pool. I am no where near a short stop, but when you only play bar pool and local tourneys you really cant judge how good you are comparatively. I read alot of people write, "I'm an SL5, or I played a SL7." I figure that its a way to give weight, but what does that mean?
Click to expand...
Several rating tools, along with descriptions and comparisons of various rating systems, can be found here:

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
jmizzo said:
Brian, as an SL5, have you ever won the Friday night tournament at CR's? That was my home pool room for years while living in the twin cities, mostly during lunch. Now I live in the land of valley tables, I miss diamonds.

JMizzo
Click to expand...

I wish! I try to get there for it once a month or so, but I'm always dead money :) Not sure what the competition was like when you were playing in it, but right now it's really stout! People show up like Mike Fieldhammer, Gene Albrecht, Jamie Pluta, Jesse Engel (who beat Strickland and Sigel at the US Open this year), and Lee Heuwagon to name a few.

Brian
 
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