Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed

[hejests]

A good patent application (done properly by a good practitioner) is not cheap, somewhere around 15K (utility patent.. a design patent is a lot cheaper maybe ~$1200... I'm thinking a case probably falls more under a design patent... unless there's something really novel, like the first person to use tubes!). Plus a patent's only going to provide protection in so far as you're willing to put up money to enforce it, in other words to sue competitors for infringement (which isn't cheap either).

 

[Snoogi]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water....
Doug

Part two or three..can't remember though..that jumbo poster with a gal in bikineeee..

 

[Snoogi]

Most people on trial should be scared almost to death if they look into a jury box and see a jury of their peers. The lawyers work on a simple theory, if the facts are on your side, trial by judge, no jury. If you need to baffle'm with BS, ask for a jury!

I have been involved in a few jury trials as a witness and expert witness. They are pretty entertaining when it isn't your head on the block.

Hu

PS I have been in the jury pool a handful of times over the years but somehow one side or the other never wants me on a jury. I don't think either side really does because I am likely to vote based on the facts as proven and based on what is right and wrong.

The jury system was scrapped in my country sometime ago, that leaves no room for BS..

 

[Snoogi]

A good patent application (done properly by a good practitioner) is not cheap, somewhere around 15K (utility patent.. a design patent is a lot cheaper maybe ~$1200... I'm thinking a case probably falls more under a design patent... unless there's something really novel, like the first person to use tubes!). Plus a patent's only going to provide protection in so far as you're willing to put up money to enforce it, in other words to sue competitors for infringement (which isn't cheap either).

That's the reason I mentioned earlier that something as common as a cuecase or its design likely needs to be protected internationally and the fees required to maintain it is expensive. Here we're looking at global infringement..if people all round the world are to copy the designs..

 

[ShootingArts]

good deal!

The jury system was scrapped in my country sometime ago, that leaves no room for BS..

Good Deal!

That means there is only one person to have to bribe or get to too.

Hu

 

[JimS]

Good Deal!

That means there is only one person to have to bribe or get to too.

Hu

"They" are watching you know... and "they" watch the way we think and "they" remember who has, shall we say, "certain tendancies".

I've always gravitated towards those with certain tendancies.

 

[Snoogi]

Good Deal!

That means there is only one person to have to bribe or get to too.

Hu

More like convince..

Great scut..this thread's suppose to be about cuecase designs..

 

[John Barton]

I think the problem that Jack Justis (& others) have had & are having with John Barton & his Sterling crew is that they produce products that are trying to deceive the consumer into thinking that they are buying the real thing, or something close to it. Whether the consumer is happy because they have something that someone might mistake for a Justis or they are happy because they have something that looks real similiar but for a cheaper price.

Jack mentioned in one of his posts that the rivets are exactly the same # and same design pattern. That seems to me that there is intent to deceive the consumer. Not mentioning the styling & patterns on the case itself.

I like the economics discussion but let's stick to factual examples ok.

1. John Barton is not making anything that is remotely deceptive in any way. Jack has been given full credit for the design influence of ONE part on a case John made. Jack complained about the rivets being in the same place on one lid that I did. He did not mention the fact that I added two rivets for extra strength on the top of the lid. I sincerely hope that we are not at the point where we are are going to use rivet placement as our benchmarks for design infringement.

2. Sterling Gaming is not engaged in any deception - the cue used as an example of copying was for the first time in history correctly identified in print as a copy of a Gina, credit was given to the source of the design and there is no chance that any consumer will be fooled into thinking that they are purchasing a "real" Gina cue.

Let us all take a step back for just a moment and think about what we are talking about here.

A copy is a lookalike product - it could be a good copy or a bad one. But it looks almost identical to the original. A copy may have a logo that is styled like the original - like "Rheebok" instead of "Reebok"

A counterfeit is a copy that is made exactly like the original including any trademarks and signatures. As in the copy will have a "Reebok" logo on it.

Then there are the products that are not copies but they use elements of design. They are clearly made to have the look and feel of the originals but they also stand on their own as products. To get things back to pool there are plenty of cases on the market now that use the die-cut scallop design that was introduced by John Barton/Instroke in 1994. However a lot of these cases use other elements that make them different.

I was upset at Joe Porper in like 98/99 because he brought out a case with the scallops. Sure he took my design but he also made it his by adding on his own elements and so made a new case. It's the evolution of the design world. You can't call a case a copy or a counterfeit IF it just has elements of someone else's design. All cases have elements of cases that came before them.

And speaking quickly to the idea that we (the USA) should boycott foreign imported goods. An idea put forth by a prominent dealer in High End cues.

Joe, how about polling the cuemakers you deal with and asking them if they would trade their foreign cue sales for no imports. In other words if no foreign person ever bought an American made cue would that be worth it? If they could have one wish would they trade all the revenue from foreign buyers of high end cues for an absence of low end imports? How about Jack Justis? Do you think that he wants to give up the right to sell his cases to foreign buyers?

And that is just speaking to the idea that we should ban/boycott goods from foreign countries. Not to the central theme of what is a copy and what is not.

 

[Snoogi]

If the cuecase becomes too common, the patent authorities might just strike it off the list..that only leaves the designs and logos which comes under trademarks and copyrights..just like they strike off computers and televisions (can't remember which year..), but the programs and softwares are protected under copyrights..

Final scenario will be something like similar cuecases with different brandnames on them..

 

[John Barton]

A good patent application (done properly by a good practitioner) is not cheap, somewhere around 15K (utility patent.. a design patent is a lot cheaper maybe ~$1200... I'm thinking a case probably falls more under a design patent... unless there's something really novel, like the first person to use tubes!). Plus a patent's only going to provide protection in so far as you're willing to put up money to enforce it, in other words to sue competitors for infringement (which isn't cheap either).

Totally agree. I spent $50,00 defending my Trademark and at the end all I got was a settlement that amount to the other side stopping to use the trademark.

If I had wanted to get an injunction I would have had to post a bond of around $500,000 to stop them from selling goods bearing my trademark.

I got no money for the cases they sold prior to the settlement. No money for the legal fees.

And in the end they changed the logo a little bit and continued selling in the USA. Technically still close enough to be infringing on the original trademark but my attorney advised me that it wold cost another 5-10 thousand to bring the issue before the court and argue it.

I gave up.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I like the economics discussion but let's stick to factual examples ok.

1. John Barton is not making anything that is remotely deceptive in any way. Jack has been given full credit for the design influence of ONE part on a case John made. Jack complained about the rivets being in the same place on one lid that I did. He did not mention the fact that I added two rivets for extra strength on the top of the lid. I sincerely hope that we are not at the point where we are are going to use rivet placement as our benchmarks for design infringement.

2. Sterling Gaming is not engaged in any deception - the cue used as an example of copying was for the first time in history correctly identified in print as a copy of a Gina, credit was given to the source of the design and there is no chance that any consumer will be fooled into thinking that they are purchasing a "real" Gina cue.

Let us all take a step back for just a moment and think about what we are talking about here.

A copy is a lookalike product - it could be a good copy or a bad one. But it looks almost identical to the original. A copy may have a logo that is styled like the original - like "Rheebok" instead of "Reebok"

A counterfeit is a copy that is made exactly like the original including any trademarks and signatures. As in the copy will have a "Reebok" logo on it.

Then there are the products that are not copies but they use elements of design. They are clearly made to have the look and feel of the originals but they also stand on their own as products. To get things back to pool there are plenty of cases on the market now that use the die-cut scallop design that was introduced by John Barton/Instroke in 1994. However a lot of these cases use other elements that make them different.

I was upset at Joe Porper in like 98/99 because he brought out a case with the scallops. Sure he took my design but he also made it his by adding on his own elements and so made a new case. It's the evolution of the design world. You can't call a case a copy or a counterfeit IF it just has elements of someone else's design. All cases have elements of cases that came before them.

And speaking quickly to the idea that we (the USA) should boycott foreign imported goods. An idea put forth by a prominent dealer in High End cues.

Joe, how about polling the cuemakers you deal with and asking them if they would trade their foreign cue sales for no imports. In other words if no foreign person ever bought an American made cue would that be worth it? If they could have one wish would they trade all the revenue from foreign buyers of high end cues for an absence of low end imports? How about Jack Justis? Do you think that he wants to give up the right to sell his cases to foreign buyers?

And that is just speaking to the idea that we should ban/boycott goods from foreign countries. Not to the central theme of what is a copy and what is not.

TAP!TAP!TAP!
FOR ALL OF YOU WHO DIDNT READ THE WHOLE THREAD UNDERSTAND THAT JOHN BARTON IS NOT THE DESIGN THIEF HE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BY MR. JUSTIS.THERE ARE NO FACTS BACKING MR. JUSTIS STATEMENT UP WHATSOEVER SO THE HEADLINE AND ACCUSATIONS ARE BOGUS!

 

[John Barton]

Final scenario will be something like similar cuecases with different brandnames on them..

That has been the norm for 20 years.

It's only going to become more prevalent as the skill level of the producers increases along with their reach.

Jay Flowers started the idea of having a production line high end leather case. His were more "custom" production.

Edit: I forgot to include Mike Roberts and It's George cases. It's George was also a production style leather case that was modeled on the Fellini style. This style has been adopted by Ron Thomas and Sam Engles among others.

I built a case with all the quality and more of the Flowers case and mass produced it. And put all the best quality features in each model - from the $99 vinyl 1x1 to the $469 Leather 3x7.

Since my cases had the widest distribution they also became the largest targets for copying. But before me Joe Porper had also taken an idea from Bob Meucci and turned it into a good mass produced case that also got knocked off.

However out of that has grown many styles and hybrids that serve the market well.

It's just like pool. If you are the number one then there will be a thousand who want your spot. Innovators copy first to learn the genre then they improve. Hacks will just make bad copies because they don't understand the material. Consumers are the ones who are responsible to educate themselves enough to find the value in the products they buy.

 

[Fast Lenny]

It's just like pool. If you are the number one then there will be a thousand who want your spot. Innovators copy first to learn the genre then they improve. Hacks will just make bad copies because they don't understand the material. Consumers are the ones who are responsible to educate themselves enough to find the value in the products they buy.

I agree its up to the consumer,if every case cost hundreds of dollars alot of cues wouldnt have a home,the knockoffs and vinyl cases appeal to alot of players out there who do it recreationally and dont want to spend alot of money.The quality cases you guys produce are definately a great product and appealing to real players and people who appreciate fine billiard equipment.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I am not sure when Jay Flowers began making cases but he may be pre-dated as the originator. I have looked all over for start dates for Jay Flowers Cases? I posted a Curtis case on the cue gallery and it dates 1988 or 1987! I know because it was bought the same year Black Boar displayed cues at the trade show and their first year was 1998 according to the BlackBoarCustomCues.com website.

I was looking for some more info and knew Buddy Hall, Archer & Mark Tadd use to carry them around. Here is the link.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=75418

I thought it appropriate given the copy cat allegations.

Sincerely,
Kid
Dynomite

 

[TATE]

I am not sure when Jay Flowers began making cases but he may be pre-dated as the originator. I have looked all over for start dates for Jay Flowers Cases? I posted a Curtis case on the cue gallery and it dates 1988 or 1987! I know because it was bought the same year Black Boar displayed cues at the trade show and their first year was 1998 according to the BlackBoarCustomCues.com website.

I was looking for some more info and knew Buddy Hall, Archer & Mark Tadd use to carry them around. Here is the link.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=75418

I thought it appropriate give the copy cat allegations.

Sincerely,
Kid
Dynomite

Here's the history on Flowers:

http://www.palmercollector.com/JayFlowers.html

He pretty much came up with the tooled leather case as we know it for pool cues, from what I can tell. However, these sort of cases feature a number of design items from leather cases made for fishing rods 100 years ago, including the straps, lids, and tooling.

Brunswick's original case that John showed earlier was a pool cue sized exact copy of a particular brand of fly rod case dating from the early 1900's. The round tubular "casket style" leather case originated from fly rods as well.

I've studied it a little, and sometime I'll show pics and examples of where these designs originated.

Chris

 

[olauzon]

is it possible this is enought, John ? you have proven yourself.

for anybody else - give it up already - this boderline the teenage bull many of us get every evening coming home from work...

 

[sammy1712]

After reading carefully all pages, I feel sorry that might my post at WTB/FS forum start all these discussion over here.

As I was searching for a new case in Germany I could?t find anything what?s fits for my opinion and one day I saw a "Bentley" case at Ebay, exactly the case posted over here. That time I had no idea who Jack Justis and his cases are? I only saw this case and decided to go with it.

After I received it, I was stunning about quality and workman?s craft of it. The only thing I was wondering that time was, there was no manufacture plate or logo on it, nothing were you might identify the manufacture
After I?m now more used to US case maker scene, I have to say yes it looks like a Justis case.

If somebody wants to knock of Jack Justis why it gets sold s a Bentley and you can?t find any logo on it??

I?m also wondering that these cases have shown up after June I bought it from Ebay USA?

If this knockoff does influent so much, why you can?t find it through the net? I?m looking since a couple weeks to get a 3/5 version all over the net and nothing to find?

Okay, now I?m obvious that it might a knockoff, but a few days ago I didn?t know it. It was only a beautiful and real high quality case to me what I want to get as 3/5 version, nothing more

 

[cuesblues]

Real Justis case

After reading carefully all pages, I feel sorry that might my post at WTB/FS forum start all these discussion over here.

As I was searching for a new case in Germany I could?t find anything what?s fits for my opinion and one day I saw a "Bentley" case at Ebay, exactly the case posted over here. That time I had no idea who Jack Justis and his cases are? I only saw this case and decided to go with it.

After I received it, I was stunning about quality and workman?s craft of it. The only thing I was wondering that time was, there was no manufacture plate or logo on it, nothing were you might identify the manufacture
After I?m now more used to US case maker scene, I have to say yes it looks like a Justis case.

If somebody wants to knock of Jack Justis why it gets sold s a Bentley and you can?t find any logo on it??

I?m also wondering that these cases have shown up after June I bought it from Ebay USA?

If this knockoff does influent so much, why you can?t find it through the net? I?m looking since a couple weeks to get a 3/5 version all over the net and nothing to find?

Okay, now I?m obvious that it might a knockoff, but a few days ago I didn?t know it. It was only a beautiful and real high quality case to me what I want to get as 3/5 version, nothing more

If you like the knock-off case, wait till you get the real thing. Here is one that I acquired used, that wasn't too much more expensive than the Bentley cases

View attachment 52513

View attachment 52514

 

[sammy1712]

Great looking, THAT?S exactely what I?m looking for !!!!

 

[crosseyedjoe]

That's the reason I mentioned earlier that something as common as a cuecase or its design likely needs to be protected internationally and the fees required to maintain it is expensive. Here we're looking at global infringement..if people all round the world are to copy the designs..

However you can not patent a beautiful design, you can only patent an innovative(structural) design. Sometimes even if the new structural design is something that you developed, you will still need to prove that the design can't be discovered in some other way (Apple VS Microsoft over the windowing and mouse interface, Apple lost).