Keith Would have Crushed Them

Great Replies but Could Todays best beat Keith

softshot said:
I'd like to see Keith and Ronnie O'Sullivan... in a cage match all around playing everything... that DVD would sell.....and be worth the money...:thumbup:

These are all great replies and great stories but was wondering who everybody thinks is the best on the bar box today, and if they think those players could have beat Keith in his heyday. I see people specifically mention SVB and Corey, and Keith has even commented on here that SVB would be a statue watching him run packages.
 
no pressure if you don't care

There isn't any pressure if you don't care. Back in the day Keith didn't care. I basically lagged for $80,000 once. That was the net from the sale of my business that I had worked years to build. I was playing someone in the pharmaceutical business that just wanted to experience the thrill of betting for big money. I was young with no obligations and figured I could earn the money again in five or six years if I had to. I also knew If I won the lag and broke safe that the only way he had more than the slimmest of chances is if he rebroke the rack to get the table open. He could run out on an open table but wasn't in my class picking balls off of the stack or breaking up smaller clusters so to my thinking the real bet was on the lag.

I played as well for eighty thousand as I played for a beer, I'd say considerably better. Does that make me a great pool player or a damned fool at the time for risking $80,000 I had worked hard for years to get, all on a lag and a single game of bar table eight ball?

Hu



macneilb said:
who will bet 'way more' than 50 dimes and still play the same in regards to todays players? none. cornbread red..eddietaylor,
bugs, freddy? anybody who frequented the rack? yeah, there are wayyy too many to name from the past, but who does that today?

i give tons of props to guys like john schmidt and shane b/c they will step up when TAR puts something on when the oppurtunity comes
up, but how many now can say they hunted for action like keith? maybe shane to a degree. also, guys like keith who can hit that
high gear when they're playing for ridiculous amounts are indeed a rarity, espeically today, so to say that "many a gambler is a better
pool player than Keith by your standards because they will bet way more than $50,000 and play exactly the same"...just aint right.

keith could have a million above the lights and he'd still make it look effortless in his day. not too many can say that now, although there are a couple exceptions. and that is IMO a valid way to measure a pool player.

keeping your cool under pressure is how you measure just about anyone at a high level of any sport.
 
ShootingArts said:
There isn't any pressure if you don't care. Back in the day Keith didn't care. I basically lagged for $80,000 once. That was the net from the sale of my business that I had worked years to build. I was playing someone in the pharmaceutical business that just wanted to experience the thrill of betting for big money. I was young with no obligations and figured I could earn the money again in five or six years if I had to. I also knew If I won the lag and broke safe that the only way he had more than the slimmest of chances is if he rebroke the rack to get the table open. He could run out on an open table but wasn't in my class picking balls off of the stack or breaking up smaller clusters so to my thinking the real bet was on the lag.

I played as well for eighty thousand as I played for a beer, I'd say considerably better. Does that make me a great pool player or a damned fool at the time for risking $80,000 I had worked hard for years to get, all on a lag and a single game of bar table eight ball?

Hu


Depends if you won or not. ;)

Ken
 
I won

Ken_4fun said:
Depends if you won or not. ;)

Ken

Ken,

The game went exactly as I had planned and hoped it would. I won the lag and broke safe. He didn't risk rebreaking without making a ball and I picked apart the stack to win. We had discussed payment before the game since neither of had the $80K in our back pockets. This was a spur of the moment game although we had been playing each other for small stakes for months. He knew my business was for sale and I had seen a lot more than $80,000 on his kitchen table before so we both knew we should get paid if we won but not immediately.

He was in the recreational pharmaceutical business of course.
He had to leave town one step in front of the man a few weeks later and it turned out I risked my net worth against an air barrel! Yet another reason I say that having gamble doesn't necessarily translate into being a great pool player.

Hu
 
macneilb said:
which ever way you slice it, keith had more gamble in him than the rest, before and since. true, he could be beat, but how many could honestly play as well for 50,000+ a set as they would in practice? keith was a rarity in that sense IMO. THAT is what I believe seperated him from the rest.

what i laugh about is that we all (including myself) think 50 grand is some ungodly, huge amount of money, it's really nothing. what does a golfer make that makes the cut then shoots 20 over par for the weekend??
 
enzo said:
what i laugh about is that we all (including myself) think 50 grand is some ungodly, huge amount of money, it's really nothing. what does a golfer make that makes the cut then shoots 20 over par for the weekend??

I realize that you're just making a point ;) , but this world we live in and the media assault makes us lose sight of the real value of money.

First, that golfer who made the cut probably spent at least half a million over the years getting his game to that level and getting his PGA card. That one tournament may be his only payoff of the year if he's just getting started.

Second, $50,000 is a giant amount of money to 99.999% of the people on this planet. Anybody with net worth less than several million should still think it's a lot of money and most people who are careless with that kind of cash will never get to that level.

Tom
 
$80,000 Air Barrel??

ShootingArts said:
Ken,

The game went exactly as I had planned and hoped it would. I won the lag and broke safe. He didn't risk rebreaking without making a ball and I picked apart the stack to win. We had discussed payment before the game since neither of had the $80K in our back pockets. This was a spur of the moment game although we had been playing each other for small stakes for months. He knew my business was for sale and I had seen a lot more than $80,000 on his kitchen table before so we both knew we should get paid if we won but not immediately.



He was in the recreational pharmaceutical business of course.
He had to leave town one step in front of the man a few weeks later and it turned out I risked my net worth against an air barrel! Yet another reason I say that having gamble doesn't necessarily translate into being a great pool player.

Hu

So you are saying you never got paid??:confused:
 
yeah, which makes me a bigger fool

rackem said:
So you are saying you never got paid??:confused:

That's right I never got paid, which made me a bigger fool because I would have paid! I do think the other guy would have too, had I caught him with cash on the table. Rumor was he was an old time remittance man from the east coast. he got a big wad of money once every six months, I think from his family so he stayed away. It wasn't as big a wad as he wanted so he made one huge deal every six months, when that cash ran low he just skated along until the next payment.

We had been upfront about paying, so I knew I wasn't getting paid for a month or so. Word was he got big enough to attract the attention of the Fed's, I would have ran like a rabbit too! I had paid him a casual visit the last time he made a big deal and seen his kitchen table covered in bills six to ten inches deep with the smallest ones being twenties and mostly hundreds so I knew he dealt big enough to pay me when he made the next deal and do it without busting himself. He would have liked the image of big time gambler that paid his debts so I think I would have gotten my money. Good enough chance to make the bet anyway. If I caught him with cash on hand he would have paid and I had ears all around him.

The air barrel didn't bother me, I had won it in a few minutes on the pool table and I had no respect for money which is my whole point about gamble not being a good definition of a good pool player. Fifty thousand ain't small change now but considering how long ago that was it was probably more like $200,000 today. Of course it was back in the day when Keith was betting big too.

Keith was a great player and probably still has a game or two left in him. I just don't think that being reckless with money defines greatness. Another player who is one of the greatest players ever and who is greatly respected today is a poor gambler in my opinion, letting others manipulate him. His honor and his need for respect from others that aren't a pimple on his butt make him a fish sometimes as great as he is. I have never met a good gambler that wasn't cold, calculating, and without a reckless bone in his body. They aren't nearly as much fun to watch as the cowboys but they are the ones that almost always end up with the cash.

Hu
 
JAM said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Those who deem players are the "Best" in these who's-the-best threads based their opinions on what they have actually seen with their own eyes.

It is absolutely impossible for anyone on this forum to know how strong Keith McCready played in his heyday, including myself, unless they were there and had the opportunity to see ALL players in their prime. I never knew Keith when he was in his prime.

What separates Keith's game from Buddy Hall, Earl Strickland, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, and Mike Sigel -- the top players of Keith's era -- is that Keith was an offensive shooter, more so than defensive, and he went for everything because he believed he could make it. And sometimes, much to the surprise of his opponents, he did. Check out the 2003 match against Keith and Jose Parica at the U.S. Open on Accu-Stats. :eek:

Who can ever forget when he was getting ready to shoot the game ball in against Alex Pagulayan for the almighty win at the '03 Open. It was a nice, easy straight-in shot on the 9-rock. Why couldn't he just shoot the sucker in? Nope, not Keith. He already had the full attention of every single attendee in the Chesapeake Conference Center watching his game. They had to stop the TV table because even Efren and Bustie were sweating Keith and Alex. Johnny Archer was playing alongside Keith's table against Howard Vickery, and Johnny was extremely pissed off and just sat in his chair until Keith and Alex were through. I was extremely pissed off sitting in the audience, watching Keith prance around the table like a ballerina.

So, instead of knocking the 9 in for the win, Keith looks up at his fans in the stands while he's actually stroking the ball, NEVER lookihg at the pocket, and yells out, "And you can put this on the Internet." He missed the pocket by a mile. I remember hearing Sally Timko from InsidePOOL magazine in the audience yelling out, "And we will." Watching Keith compete at the Open that year was like sitting on the Rebel Yell roller-coaster at King's Dominion. :angry:

To this day, I don't know of anyone who won $360,000-plus gambling. There's an interesting story about this match, which I'm saving for another day, but it happened.

I do know that players came from all over the country to California, i.e., Larry Hubbert, Mike Sigel, Wade Crane, et cetera, and left with empty pockets. When Efren Reyes hit the States, his "advisors" and steermen would not let him play Keith McCready initially. They knew it wasn't a dead giveaway, and that there was an element of surprise with Keith's game. Nobody ever knew which Keith was going to show up. :o

Now, that said, I ain't taking nothing away from the bar table champions that are heralded on this forum. I know Keith has a great deal of respect of Dave Matlock, as an example, nd the two of them remain friends today. :)

correct me if i am wrong, but didn't both these guys offer the world the 8 at some point ??????
 
JasonCrugar said:
correct me if i am wrong, but didn't both these guys offer the world the 8 at some point ??????

"The World's Got the 8" is attributed to Keith McCready when he was hitting 'em strong. I have never heard of any other player with this tagline attributed to them before. I may be wrong. :p
 
JAM said:
"The World's Got the 8" is attributed to Keith McCready when he was hitting 'em strong. I have never heard of any other player with this tagline attributed to them before. I may be wrong. :p
I see it that way too, my dear Jam. I wish I had even one year in the heyday, playing the way he did before he was recognized.
 
macneilb said:
who will bet 'way more' than 50 dimes and still play the same in regards to todays players? none. cornbread red..eddietaylor,
bugs, freddy? anybody who frequented the rack? yeah, there are wayyy too many to name from the past, but who does that today?

i give tons of props to guys like john schmidt and shane b/c they will step up when TAR puts something on when the oppurtunity comes
up, but how many now can say they hunted for action like keith? maybe shane to a degree. also, guys like keith who can hit that
high gear when they're playing for ridiculous amounts are indeed a rarity, espeically today, so to say that "many a gambler is a better
pool player than Keith by your standards because they will bet way more than $50,000 and play exactly the same"...just aint right.

keith could have a million above the lights and he'd still make it look effortless in his day. not too many can say that now, although there are a couple exceptions. and that is IMO a valid way to measure a pool player.

keeping your cool under pressure is how you measure just about anyone at a high level of any sport.


Watch the Hong Kong Challenge...The absolute best playing for big cash i have ever seen!!
 
PUUULEEESE
DrawtheRock said:
I know there were some very strong bar table 9 ball players in the past such as Keith Mcready, Dave Matlock, and Buddy Hall...but are there any top players today that are even close to what Keith was? I hear Corey, Shane, and some others are good but can they really even compare to to the others...especially Keith?...or would he have crushed them?

Just curious
 
ShootingArts said:
Keith was a great player and probably still has a game or two left in him. I just don't think that being reckless with money defines greatness. Another player who is one of the greatest players ever and who is greatly respected today is a poor gambler in my opinion, letting others manipulate him. His honor and his need for respect from others that aren't a pimple on his butt make him a fish sometimes as great as he is. I have never met a good gambler that wasn't cold, calculating, and without a reckless bone in his body. They aren't nearly as much fun to watch as the cowboys but they are the ones that almost always end up with the cash.

Hu

keith IMO wasn't reckless b/c he knew he had what it took to win, and the gamble, nerves, and high gear to make it happen. taking his winnings to the card tables right after...that might be reckless :rolleyes:. I agree that recklessness doesn't define a good gambler, but what I'm saying, and what everybody else here knows, is that keith in his prime had a gear that almost nobody could touch, and that asset gave him the confidence to gamble with anybody. You call it reckless because you say he doesn't care, I would call it confidence because he always believed he was just that great.
 
I have bettered a world record on one day

macneilb said:
keith IMO wasn't reckless b/c he knew he had what it took to win, and the gamble, nerves, and high gear to make it happen. taking his winnings to the card tables right after...that might be reckless :rolleyes:. I agree that recklessness doesn't define a good gambler, but what I'm saying, and what everybody else here knows, is that keith in his prime had a gear that almost nobody could touch, and that asset gave him the confidence to gamble with anybody. You call it reckless because you say he doesn't care, I would call it confidence because he always believed he was just that great.

What you can do and what you will do are two different things. Keith has had his share of wins and then some. He has had plenty of losses too. Without somebody managing his money he was often a loose cannon. You can win a dozen times and lose it all in one bad session. The great come from behind stories or winning bucking a bad game are remembered precisely because they are rare. The times that good money was thrown after bad are soon forgotten because few make a habit out of retelling those stories over and over.

There is a fine line between confidence and recklessness. I heard Keith barking in his youth. Did you?

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
What you can do and what you will do are two different things. Keith has had his share of wins and then some. He has had plenty of losses too. Without somebody managing his money he was often a loose cannon. You can win a dozen times and lose it all in one bad session. The great come from behind stories or winning bucking a bad game are remembered precisely because they are rare. The times that good money was thrown after bad are soon forgotten because few make a habit out of retelling those stories over and over.

There is a fine line between confidence and recklessness. I heard Keith barking in his youth. Did you?

Hu

I'll agree with you on the first part, but IMO there isn't a line between confidence and recklessness - the ends justify the means. If you make a tough game giving away all sorts of weight, and you lose...you were over-confident and reckless. If you win...you were just that confident in how good you are. I won the silver and bronze medals for team canada at the world kickboxing championships when I was 17 and 18, fighting guys who were bigger, meaner, more experienced, and on paper - probably better fighters, but I wanted it more than anything and had the belief that I was just that good. Was I being reckless then? maybe i just have an admiration for people who aren't afraid to try to beat the odds. who knows ;)
 
You know?!, I could care less about the rest of this thread....BUT...I'd like to print of a few dozen t-shirts with ...."THE WORLD GETS THE 8" on it.

whos up for a few?...


G.

maybe on the front it could say......Grady Seasons...
 
Back
Top