Keith Would have Crushed Them

[quitecoolguy]

Ya know what i have been in the shadows for a while. Those that know me know that i dont jump in untill i think a matter of principal has been violated and Right now I think it has.

Why are we so quick to bash the very people that consitute the soul of the game we love.. SCREW THAT... KEITH I have never had the pleasure to talk to you ..everytime you have come to Richmond Va. to the playing field i have missed an opportunity to talk to you ..shake you hand..get an autograph..and by you and JAM a dam beer. Jam you and i have talked on the forum a couple of times, dont know if you remember?

Keith you are one the reason why I wanted to be a great player. Everytime i watch the color of money i think That guy right there is one of the many that make up the true heartbeat of pool

To see him bashed or questioned is just wrong. I have watched vidoe of you Keith and you hit em damn good. To be honest i would love to play you..not to climb up and Crow like a Rooster saying look who i beat (Like i have a chance to beat you anway hahaha) but i would love to play you just for the privilage to say I PLAYED KEITHER THE EITHER,,,the earthquake him self.

Shame on anyone who seeks to prove a point at the expense of a legend. No wonder legends dont wana share anything...some times its better to shut your mouth and open your ears so that you can learn something from someone who has been where you want to go

KEITH if no one has told you I want to say "Thank You" for your swager and the crazy things you have done and will continue to do. You sir are one of my unsung heros!!!!

Thanks
Tony Capers
Richmond Va.

 

[wayne]

dennis hatch
rod morris
john archer
ralf so i wont try
duel
svb
alex
orcolo
waren kiamco
mika
neils
ron alcano
john sc
danny h
darren appleton

The question wasn't what players today are better than you. It was what players today were better than the greats that were named. A lot of people on this list should not be compared to the greats and some of them couldn't beat some of the old timers TODAY!!!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

The question wasn't what players today are better than you. It was what players today were better than the greats that were named. A lot of people on this list should not be compared to the greats and some of them couldn't beat some of the old timers TODAY!!!

I agree. Players like Buddy, Sigel, Strickland, and Varner played the game as perfect as one can get. Nobody can play better than perfect.

 

[ShootingArts]

no telling who would have won

There is no telling who would have won, older players or today's. However, I believe anyone thinking someone would have run over somebody or even been a lock to win is barking up the wrong tree. One of the things that defines the greats of any era is their ability to rise to the occasion.

The only way to know who would win is if you could put them both on the same table at the same time. Even then all that is proven is who won that time. Every player can catch a gear, every player can get cold.

I feel like we have more great players today but Jay made an excellent point. A lot of the strong players weren't even a blip on the radar all the way into the seventies and eighties. Now if someone shows too much speed they are famous overnight or at least infamous! We know the name, face, and speed of many more of the top players.

Hu

 

[enzo]

There is no telling who would have won, older players or today's. However, I believe anyone thinking someone would have run over somebody or even been a lock to win is barking up the wrong tree. One of the things that defines the greats of any era is their ability to rise to the occasion.

The only way to know who would win is if you could put them both on the same table at the same time. Even then all that is proven is who won that time. Every player can catch a gear, every player can get cold.

I feel like we have more great players today but Jay made an excellent point. A lot of the strong players weren't even a blip on the radar all the way into the seventies and eighties. Now if someone shows too much speed they are famous overnight or at least infamous! We know the name, face, and speed of many more of the top players.

Hu

i do see the logic here, but the fact is it would simply just be a wash if you put up the great players of today with those of yesteryear. you're right, no way to prove this, but to me it would be like betting if the sun will come up tommorow; no way to prove it, but you know the truth. in the long run anyway.... it would just be even.

as far as more great players today, lets just assume that is true, well, this doesn't say much, if anything, other than maybe more people play nowadays, the world population has grown by god knows how much, there are perhaps more pooltables worldwide....... this fact, even if true, doesnt say much i believe.

 

[ShootingArts]

basically what I am saying

i do see the logic here, but the fact is it would simply just be a wash if you put up the great players of today with those of yesteryear. you're right, no way to prove this, but to me it would be like betting if the sun will come up tommorow; no way to prove it, but you know the truth. in the long run anyway.... it would just be even.

as far as more great players today, lets just assume that is true, well, this doesn't say much, if anything, other than maybe more people play nowadays, the world population has grown by god knows how much, there are perhaps more pooltables worldwide....... this fact, even if true, doesnt say much i believe.

Enzo,

I think we are saying the same thing. You call it a wash, I say members of either group could win on a given day. The players of today look a little better at a glance, largely because of playing on better equipment, a different style of play, and editing for broadcast that cuts out a lot of the more embarrassing play when they edit for time. Too, many of the old player's heyday was pre television or in the very early days so what we usually see of them are the Legends games or something of this type taped when they were long past their peak. This taints our perception of how they played.

Hu

 

[The Saw]

He would kick-safe a lot of people, not just me. I have a lot of respect for Alex's game, but if you want to go back to primes, I would have never backed down from him, like a lot of other people would.

Second of all, I guess I'm in pretty good company, if you have to bring up Alex's name. What about all the others that I spotted when I was in my prime?

I played two-shot/roll-out when I was in my prime. None of this kick/safe bullshit. If you kick/safe, you had the option to roll out, which made it an entirely different game, and that's sort of where my game shined, but I'm not on this forum to try to wake you up or anybody else. I don't have to. I know what I did, and I know who I am.

You people like to keep trying to dig at me for what reason? I don't know. Maybe you got nothing better to do with your life. So get one.

I don't think anyone here is digging at you, you've got an opinion and I've got an opinion that's different than yours. So what? Everyone here has an opinion and they differ from left to right and top to bottom. That's why it's called a "forum"...

People always want to say the older players had to play on slow cloth, they played 2 shot push out, blah, blah, blah.... The young players play on Simonis, play express rules, they've got it easy, blah, blah, blah.... Well the truth is that 2 spo was a completely offensive game. That's not to say it was a bad game, just that it was offense oriented. It is my opinion that express rules take a more multi-faceted (offense as well as defense) game. You not only have to run out but you have to think a little more to boot. There is a good reason that you and Buddy dominated the 70's and 80's. The two of you were the best smash mouth, straight shooting, run the f*ck out rotation pool players on the planet and you had the good fortune of playing an offense oriented game in 2 spo.

I don't care what sport it is, pool, golf, basketball, football, boxing, etc... The older players in each sport can't dominate in todays world/game like they did in their own era. Hogan was the king of golf until Arnie came along then Jack Nicklaus stole his thunder. Anyone want to debate who is better, Jack or Tiger? How about basketball? Jerry West raised the bar in the 60's, Kareem was top dog in the 70's, but then Jordan made everyone forget about them, now Lebron is taking basketball to another level beyond Jordan.... I'm not taking anything away from you or any of the past great players but it's my opinion that todays in pool have more of an arsenal and are better rounded than players in the past just the same as other sports. You and Buddy re-wrote pool history and raised the bar from the era before you and todays players are doing the same. It's just the natural progression of things.... Sure todays players have better cloth, better balls, tables, etc... But they also have more knowledge/information available to them and better equipment than you had in the 70's and 80's.

What did you guys know about breaking and racking back then? Rack'em tight and hit'em hard! Now there are videos and books on the science of reading racks, where to break from, etc... And there are cues deisgned specifically for breaking that have science behind them. How about jumping balls? It was one of the things that helped Earl take the game to a whole new level and how far has that come since Earl brought that to the table? The younger players also grew up with Accu-Stat videos, streaming video like TAR, and instructional books and videos.... You guys had to grind it out to learn all of that the hard way, now people can just soak it up watching a video or reading a book. It also helps that the younger generation is more healthy and fit. You guys had the misfortune of coming up in the "get the mixture right" generation. Everyone was doing it, it was just a sign of the times in the 70's and 80's, not just the pool world. A few still do things but for the most part pool is a clean game. Players players work out and play on the natural. Thats not a slam on the players from your era but now that you are sober (congrats BTW) how good could you have been on the square? It just all comes down to the fact that this generation does things a little better than the generation before them, it's just the nature of things.....

Ever since I have been around the game I have always asked the older players who was the best 9ball players they ever seen play were. I'm talking guys like Buddy, Cornbread, Vickery, Varner, Bucky Bell, Grady, etc... and they all put you and Buddy at the top of the heap by far. FWIW, Howard Vickery said that absolutely the best pool he ever seen played was you at maybe Tahoe??? one year and he said you never left the green room for like 4 days and every time he stopped by the room you were playing dead perfect pool. But if you ask players from the 90's they are going to say Earl, Johnny, Efren were the best ever and todays players are going to say that Alex, SVB and Corey are the best ever. It's all opinion and until someone figures out how to travel back in time we will never know the real answer.... But in the meantime there is no reason to get salty about it.....

 

[Scott Lee]

macneilb...I absolutely agree with you here...and pool is no different. In tournament play, it's who stays the coolest, throughout the whole tournament, that usually wins. In gambling, it's who can stay coolest the longest, without going broke!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

keeping your cool under pressure is how you measure just about anyone at a high level of any sport.

 

[Scott Lee]

Keith...Thanks for posting here! Don't let one person get you riled up. You have more great stories, than could be told here, for the next 10 years! We know who you were, and still are...a legendary pool player, with decades of experience in this sport. Thanks for contributing! I played 2-shot shootout then too...that's a great game!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

He would kick-safe a lot of people, not just me. I have a lot of respect for Alex's game, but if you want to go back to primes, I would have never backed down from him, like a lot of other people would.

Second of all, I guess I'm in pretty good company, if you have to bring up Alex's name. What about all the others that I spotted when I was in my prime?

I played two-shot/roll-out when I was in my prime. None of this kick/safe bullshit. If you kick/safe, you had the option to roll out, which made it an entirely different game, and that's sort of where my game shined, but I'm not on this forum to try to wake you up or anybody else. I don't have to. I know what I did, and I know who I am.

You people like to keep trying to dig at me for what reason? I don't know. Maybe you got nothing better to do with your life. So get one.

 

[frankwhite]

but did he play like i do no drugs?

Chris, that wasent rite brother, or even to put that out there......cuz!!

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Plenty of heart at 32? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This is just a simple question and nothing more. You hear this all the time about someone having heart when playing pool. Not taking any side here but does age have anything to do with anything? If age is the case then do all the players like Ronnie Allen, Buddy Hall, Keith and others who have played the game for years and years have more than the next guy just because they have been around longer. What about the time Alex came back to beat SVB in that race to 100 after being down so many games playing a guy who some say is the best 10 ball player today. What about Chris getting into all kinds of games giving up weight and never turning down a challenge (that I know of ) and Keith who is no doubt one of the greatest ever, beating top players giving them weight. I personally know none of these players but they all have acomplished a great deal and have shown they all have heart when on the table. Someone's heart or desire to win is measured on their determination and drive to oversome not on age.

 

[Ron Conley]

but did he play like i do no drugs?

When Keith was 19 I spent over a month with him on a road trip through the south. I can't say what happen later in his life, but at that time he took nothing when playing pool not even a beer.

 

[APA7]

This thread iz stupid:frown:

Brian

 

[crawfish]

He would kick-safe a lot of people, not just me. I have a lot of respect for Alex's game, but if you want to go back to primes, I would have never backed down from him, like a lot of other people would.

Second of all, I guess I'm in pretty good company, if you have to bring up Alex's name. What about all the others that I spotted when I was in my prime?

I played two-shot/roll-out when I was in my prime. None of this kick/safe bullshit. If you kick/safe, you had the option to roll out, which made it an entirely different game, and that's sort of where my game shined, but I'm not on this forum to try to wake you up or anybody else. I don't have to. I know what I did, and I know who I am.

You people like to keep trying to dig at me for what reason? I don't know. Maybe you got nothing better to do with your life. So get one.

Glad to see you on here for just a moment. I'm sure we could reminisce a little. Anyway, I believe that no matter how much you throw in cloth, the different game, and etc.... some people just won't get it. Kind of like the guy that practices for four hours a day and won't get any better. They just won't get it. Shine on my fellow Keith. Fu#$'em and remember...they also pick on every other one of the guys over thirty. Take care.

 

[MBTaylor]

Not really, he was only responding. JAM opened the door for that one when she said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM
Yeah? Well, Keith played for longer than that MANY times.

Chris, that wasent rite brother, or even to put that out there......cuz!!

 

[mongoose-]

Heres an observation from just a normal guy who reads the posts on here. From what I have seen & not only in this thread but several others is that JAM is ALWAYS involved in controversy or an argument with someone. I'm certainly not dissing anybody here but I have seen it before. JAM gets in an argument and it escalates and Keith comes on all wound up. There are certainly a few on here that know how to push her buttons but either way this is a forum. People have opinions. If someone doesn't like them they don't have to agree with them but geeez no need to start a fued over petty things. I would love to see Keith come back & play but there are better ways & situations to do so then an all out war of words on a pool forum. Again that is just my OPINION.

 

[ShootingArts]

heart and age

Since JAM hasn't gotten around to replying yet I'll take a swing at this. Age does have a whole lot to do with heart. Somewhere between 12 and 20 I think most people have the heart of a champion. They don't often have the skills to go with it but they have a huge heart. Quite a few competitors carry this into their mid-twenties or a little later. Somewhere between 25-35 the realities of life hit most people square between the eyes and they become realists. They can be very tough competitors and champions but they are no longer doing it on raw guts and belief in themselves. They are doing it on a careful realistic assessment of themselves and their opponents.

It is indeed a rare bird that has the heart of a teenager into their forties and beyond. I'm paraphrasing here, the basic story is true but I don't actually remember the player and details. A great old time baseball player was asked what he would hit against the modern pitchers. ".330"

That wasn't too far from his career average but the interviewer asked the player what would be his problem with the modern pitchers. "Would it be the speed they pitch at now, better breaking curve balls, what?"

"I'm sixty years old."

That is a great example of heart at any age. Few have it after the realities of life set in. That great, usually a little unrealistic view of yourself, causes many a crash and burn. Once in a rare occurrence, it leads to greatness and great accomplishments. I know that head beats heart almost always however someone with heart can never be counted out until the last ball falls because they are still trying to win and still a threat.

I greatly admire heart in someone who is old enough to understand the realities of life. I'll almost always bet head over heart though, that is where the money is most of the time.

Hu

This is just a simple question and nothing more. You hear this all the time about someone having heart when playing pool. Not taking any side here but does age have anything to do with anything? If age is the case then do all the players like Ronnie Allen, Buddy Hall, Keith and others who have played the game for years and years have more than the next guy just because they have been around longer. What about the time Alex came back to beat SVB in that race to 100 after being down so many games playing a guy who some say is the best 10 ball player today. What about Chris getting into all kinds of games giving up weight and never turning down a challenge (that I know of ) and Keith who is no doubt one of the greatest ever, beating top players giving them weight. I personally know none of these players but they all have acomplished a great deal and have shown they all have heart when on the table. Someone's heart or desire to win is measured on their determination and drive to oversome not on age.

 

[ShootingArts]

Mongoose,

You are mostly right in what you say although your bolded "always" is a gross exaggeration. If you click on JAM's name and search all threads started by JAM you will see that she often starts threads about the brighter side of pool too. These get little attention. The big long threads where she is involved in the arguments get all the attention and notice. When I first came to AZB she was one of the best posters here with fantastic action reports complete with images.

JAM, Jennie, wears her heart on her sleeve. All long term posters know that. That is Jennie and she isn't going to change. If you read a dozen of the attack threads you will see that the vast majority of them are stirred or the flames stoked by a very small group of people. After so many times and so much history, it is instant battle when they post seemingly mild retorts to Jennie's posts. However those that have seen this rodeo for years know that these people are deliberately causing these flame threads.

I miss the great posts that Jennie once made constantly. A few people have disheartened her and her unwillingness to post as she once did is a loss to the forum. A few people get their jollies and we all lose.

Hu

Heres an observation from just a normal guy who reads the posts on here. From what I have seen & not only in this thread but several others is that JAM is ALWAYS involved in controversy or an argument with someone. I'm certainly not dissing anybody here but I have seen it before. JAM gets in an argument and it escalates and Keith comes on all wound up. There are certainly a few on here that know how to push her buttons but either way this is a forum. People have opinions. If someone doesn't like them they don't have to agree with them but geeez no need to start a fued over petty things. I would love to see Keith come back & play but there are better ways & situations to do so then an all out war of words on a pool forum. Again that is just my OPINION.

 

[crawfish]

I've come to the realization that there are a lot of "non-informed" people on here that like to stir up sh#$. You call out former legends and always bring them up when any conversation about action starts, start threads about people who aren't even playing pool right now, pick on people who could have given you the last five in their prime, and then wonder why there's controversy? WTF? I'm surprised Jennie even takes the time to answer some of this nonsense. Hey, I need to go. There's a sixty-eight year old that used to give me the 7 ball. I heard he's at the poolroom. I'm gonna go fu#% with him and talk about how I'm gonna beat him now.

 

[Richardson]

Since JAM hasn't gotten around to replying yet I'll take a swing at this. Age does have a whole lot to do with heart. Somewhere between 12 and 20 I think most people have the heart of a champion. They don't often have the skills to go with it but they have a huge heart. Quite a few competitors carry this into their mid-twenties or a little later. Somewhere between 25-35 the realities of life hit most people square between the eyes and they become realists. They can be very tough competitors and champions but they are no longer doing it on raw guts and belief in themselves. They are doing it on a careful realistic assessment of themselves and their opponents.

It is indeed a rare bird that has the heart of a teenager into their forties and beyond. I'm paraphrasing here, the basic story is true but I don't actually remember the player and details. A great old time baseball player was asked what he would hit against the modern pitchers. ".330"

That wasn't too far from his career average but the interviewer asked the player what would be his problem with the modern pitchers. "Would it be the speed they pitch at now, better breaking curve balls, what?"

"I'm sixty years old."

That is a great example of heart at any age. Few have it after the realities of life set in. That great, usually a little unrealistic view of yourself, causes many a crash and burn. Once in a rare occurrence, it leads to greatness and great accomplishments. I know that head beats heart almost always however someone with heart can never be counted out until the last ball falls because they are still trying to win and still a threat.

I greatly admire heart in someone who is old enough to understand the realities of life. I'll almost always bet head over heart though, that is where the money is most of the time.

Hu

That was Ty Cobb