Keith Would have Crushed Them

thanks!

Richardson said:
That was Ty Cobb

I thought it was but I've never followed baseball and just remembered the core point of the story, wasn't sure of any of the exact details. I think he was actually in his early sixties too and the batting average is probably a little off.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Mongoose,

You are mostly right in what you say although your bolded "always" is a gross exaggeration. If you click on JAM's name and search all threads started by JAM you will see that she often starts threads about the brighter side of pool too. These get little attention. The big long threads where she is involved in the arguments get all the attention and notice. When I first came to AZB she was one of the best posters here with fantastic action reports complete with images.

JAM, Jennie, wears her heart on her sleeve. All long term posters know that. That is Jennie and she isn't going to change. If you read a dozen of the attack threads you will see that the vast majority of them are stirred or the flames stoked by a very small group of people. After so many times and so much history, it is instant battle when they post seemingly mild retorts to Jennie's posts. However those that have seen this rodeo for years know that these people are deliberately causing these flame threads.

I miss the great posts that Jennie once made constantly. A few people have disheartened her and her unwillingness to post as she once did is a loss to the forum. A few people get their jollies and we all lose.

Hu

I have to wait a while to rep you, but this is very, very well spoken.
 
ShootingArts said:
Since JAM hasn't gotten around to replying yet I'll take a swing at this. Age does have a whole lot to do with heart. Somewhere between 12 and 20 I think most people have the heart of a champion. They don't often have the skills to go with it but they have a huge heart. Quite a few competitors carry this into their mid-twenties or a little later. Somewhere between 25-35 the realities of life hit most people square between the eyes and they become realists. They can be very tough competitors and champions but they are no longer doing it on raw guts and belief in themselves. They are doing it on a careful realistic assessment of themselves and their opponents.

It is indeed a rare bird that has the heart of a teenager into their forties and beyond. I'm paraphrasing here, the basic story is true but I don't actually remember the player and details. A great old time baseball player was asked what he would hit against the modern pitchers. ".330"

That wasn't too far from his career average but the interviewer asked the player what would be his problem with the modern pitchers. "Would it be the speed they pitch at now, better breaking curve balls, what?"

"I'm sixty years old."

That is a great example of heart at any age. Few have it after the realities of life set in. That great, usually a little unrealistic view of yourself, causes many a crash and burn. Once in a rare occurrence, it leads to greatness and great accomplishments. I know that head beats heart almost always however someone with heart can never be counted out until the last ball falls because they are still trying to win and still a threat.

I greatly admire heart in someone who is old enough to understand the realities of life. I'll almost always bet head over heart though, that is where the money is most of the time.

Hu

In contradiction to your post...

I got the impression from JAM's reply and all the smiley faces that at 32, Bartram was not old enough to have shown enough heart as of yet.

And it is ironic and a little off base that you used Ty Cobb as your example of heart, he sat out the last day of a season in order to try to preserve his hold on the league batting title. Actually a weak move, IMO. Ted Williams playing a double header the last day of the season when he was already hitting .400 would have been a better example. BTW, Ted went 6 for 8 that day.
 
Last edited:
watchez said:
In contradiction to your post...

I got the impression from JAM's reply and all the smiley faces that at 32, Bartram was not old enough to have shown enough heart as of yet.

I wish this thread would stop, but my question is what do you
think heart is?
Maybe you want to start a new thread on this, let's just let
this one go.
hugs
mrs.g
 
blah blah blah blah blah.....

It is the same old sh!t all over again. Whenever someone says Keith may not be the greatest player EVER, JAM gets all butt-hurt.

For crying out loud, people are allowed to express their opinion. You don't have to jump down their throats.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Keith was a great pool player nor were they impuning his character. None of that stuff came up until JAM got pissy about someone not saying that Keith is/was/will be the GREATEST EVER.
 
heart and age

watchez said:
In contradiction to your post...

I got the impression from JAM's reply and all the smiley faces that at 32, Bartram was not old enough to have shown enough heart as of yet.

And it is ironic and a little off base that you used Ty Cobb as your example of heart, he sat out the last day of a season in order to try to preserve his hold on the league batting title. Actually a weak move, IMO. Ted Williams playing a double header the last day of the season when he was already hitting .400 would have been a better example. BTW, Ted went 6 for 8 that day.

The post I responded to was about the relationship between heart and age. $takehor$e didn't see a connection. I explained the connection in my viewpoint. Ty Cobb thinking at sixty that he could still hit almost as good as ever was a fine example of heart at an advanced age. Assuming what you said about sitting out to protect a batting average is correct, that is an equally good example of someone playing the odds instead of with their heart and getting burned.

A person can have heart and smarts too. The very best have both. When heart is tempered by judgment the spectators and story tellers aren't as excited about a competitor but the wins come much more frequently.

Hu
 
Why Hurt

MBTaylor said:
blah blah blah blah blah.....

It is the same old sh!t all over again. Whenever someone says Keith may not be the greatest player EVER, JAM gets all butt-hurt.

For crying out loud, people are allowed to express their opinion. You don't have to jump down their throats.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Keith was a great pool player nor were they impuning his character. None of that stuff came up until JAM got pissy about someone not saying that Keith is/was/will be the GREATEST EVER.

Everybody definitely has a right to their own opinion, but I do think that some of things said probably had a reason to hurt some(especially if you are as competitive as Keith).
Saying someone would rob him is a pretty strong statement (meaning he would have no chance). Talking about drugs or no drugs would probably ruffle most as well. You never ever want to question heart. Keith has a lot of pride and confidence and is a fighter. He didnt duck hard games or players...he sought them out. He went looking for the players that were betting high and if they didnt want to play him even, he gave them a spot...even when he should have played even, and then busted them. If these challenge matches were around in his day, Keith would have been worth multi millions...end of story
 
True, but to a certain extent Keith's legacy and accomplishments speak volumes more than any prostelitizing anyone can do. This is just a forum, what someone says on here will never do anything to diminish Keith's legacy because the opinions and memories of him as a player and as a person.

I understand the desire to defend him, but I think sometimes it goes a bit overboard. That is all I was trying to say.

A lot of the more negative stuff only came out as a result of JAM trying to turn things on the people who don't come across as worshipping the ground he walks on. She thinks he is greatest, but other people think other players, past or present, are the greatest. Simply a difference of opinion. A lot of her responses to people in this thread, and others, come across as having a condescending, know-it-all, holier-than-thou and belittling tone.

Saying someone would rob Keith, as are a lot of views expressed in this thread, is an opinion. You know what they say about opinions? They are like a$$holes, everyone has one.

As far as the drugs, JAM opened the door to that one because of her comment about how long he could play in response to Bartram. Sometimes you have to be careful of the what can of worms might be opened by your statements. She was pretty confrontational and demeaning towards Bartram right from some of her very first responses in this thread.



DrawtheRock said:
Everybody definitely has a right to their own opinion, but I do think that some of things said probably had a reason to hurt some(especially if you are as competitive as Keith).
Saying someone would rob him is a pretty strong statement (meaning he would have no chance). Talking about drugs or no drugs would probably ruffle most as well. You never ever want to question heart. Keith has a lot of pride and confidence and is a fighter. He didnt duck hard games or players...he sought them out. He went looking for the players that were betting high and if they didnt want to play him even, he gave them a spot...even when he should have played even, and then busted them. If these challenge matches were around in his day, Keith would have been worth multi millions...end of story
 
So, there is no area for discussion at all. It's just opinions with no fact to back it up.

So, by this standard.... I am the best that has ever lived. Noone will ever be better. I will not back this up. I have no need or desire to. So, from now on, please refer to the Crawfish as Sir Craw, the best in the world. This is just an opinion. I cannot back this up. It's just an opinion.
 
crawfish said:
So, there is no area for discussion at all. It's just opinions with no fact to back it up.

So, by this standard.... I am the best that has ever lived. Noone will ever be better. I will not back this up. I have no need or desire to. So, from now on, please refer to the Crawfish as Sir Craw, the best in the world. This is just an opinion. I cannot back this up. It's just an opinion.


So, basically you are saying that Chris' opinion that Alex would beat Keith in both their primes on a 9 footer isn't valid?
 
Big Perm said:
Crawfish, well said, thanks for the new sig....

Oh, I mean Sir Craw :yes:
You are quite welcome, my young Big Perm. Now fetch me my Omen. I am off for some recreation. Musn't keep the townspeople waiting.
 
i was fortunate enough to get to see keith play in the late 80s and early 90s. i wish he would get the desire and motivation he needs to play again. if he even got close to his ability, the younger generation would see what a poolplayer really is. i have all the respect in the world for chris, alex, svb and the rest of the top players of today, but keith was both entertaining and incredible to watch.
 
ShootingArts said:
The post I responded to was about the relationship between heart and age. $takehor$e didn't see a connection. I explained the connection in my viewpoint. Ty Cobb thinking at sixty that he could still hit almost as good as ever was a fine example of heart at an advanced age. Assuming what you said about sitting out to protect a batting average is correct, that is an equally good example of someone playing the odds instead of with their heart and getting burned.

A person can have heart and smarts too. The very best have both. When heart is tempered by judgment the spectators and story tellers aren't as excited about a competitor but the wins come much more frequently.

Hu

It is true, Hu. In fact, him being a Nit for not playing the last game of the season really backfired on him when it was later found out that Cobb's season stats were incorrect as he was given credit twice for one game. An adjustment in his batting average was done making it actually lower than the person he was originally worried about losing to. However, they were both declared batting champs that year. To this day, some people say that Cobb had 11 batting titles - some say he had 12.

For Mrs G: Heart is defined as a never give up, can do attitude under heavy or extreme pressure - playing up to or even beyond or actual capabilities. Pressure, in terms of pool, can come from level of competition of your opponent, magnitude of an event, or financial risk/award of the situation. It is also defined as a willingness to put yourself in this situation.
 
just for the record....i fought in a war to defend this country...(and all of our rights to say what we want)n my personal opion keith got schooled by alex in that one match i was refering to,i dont give a flying crap if its hurts someone feeling about saying thay got treated like a "biotch" on the table...i'll say whatever the hell i want to...i know they both could give me the 6 out and 5to9 and drill me i dont care....but ill say whatever i want about something i see with my own eyes...i dont care if it pissed off somebody..that's the whole idea of these posts...evryone is not gonna like evrything people have to say...keith was a gret player...he should thank all of our great service men and woman who have defended this country so he(and others) could have a career playing this great game...

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR!!
 
ShootingArts said:
Since JAM hasn't gotten around to replying yet I'll take a swing at this. Age does have a whole lot to do with heart. Somewhere between 12 and 20 I think most people have the heart of a champion. They don't often have the skills to go with it but they have a huge heart. Quite a few competitors carry this into their mid-twenties or a little later. Somewhere between 25-35 the realities of life hit most people square between the eyes and they become realists. They can be very tough competitors and champions but they are no longer doing it on raw guts and belief in themselves. They are doing it on a careful realistic assessment of themselves and their opponents.

It is indeed a rare bird that has the heart of a teenager into their forties and beyond. I'm paraphrasing here, the basic story is true but I don't actually remember the player and details. A great old time baseball player was asked what he would hit against the modern pitchers. ".330"

That wasn't too far from his career average but the interviewer asked the player what would be his problem with the modern pitchers. "Would it be the speed they pitch at now, better breaking curve balls, what?"

"I'm sixty years old."

That is a great example of heart at any age. Few have it after the realities of life set in. That great, usually a little unrealistic view of yourself, causes many a crash and burn. Once in a rare occurrence, it leads to greatness and great accomplishments. I know that head beats heart almost always however someone with heart can never be counted out until the last ball falls because they are still trying to win and still a threat.

I greatly admire heart in someone who is old enough to understand the realities of life. I'll almost always bet head over heart though, that is where the money is most of the time.

Hu

That was Ty Cobb who said that, except he said he would only hit .300. Not too shabby for a 60 year old.
 
jay helfert said:
That was Ty Cobb who said that, except he said he would only hit .300. Not too shabby for a 60 year old.




Yeah, I love that quote by Cobb. I think it was Harmon Kilibrew who said something similar when he was 60 years old, something to the effect that he'd only hit about 25 homers a season if he played today...adding later "you have to understand I'm 60 years old!"
 
always wondered what a major league pitch looked like

jay helfert said:
That was Ty Cobb who said that, except he said he would only hit .300. Not too shabby for a 60 year old.

I'm none to sure a 60 year old Ty Cobb couldn't have batted .300 if it wasn't for the lost speed getting to first base.

I always wondered what a major league pitch looked like coming at you. A friend of mine from many years ago tried out for the Houston Astros. When they were timing him for pure raw speed he threw a ball 99.8 miles an hour, three times in a row. He was frustrated that he just missed triple digits. Since I wasn't into baseball it took me awhile to realize how good those numbers were.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I'm none to sure a 60 year old Ty Cobb couldn't have batted .300 if it wasn't for the lost speed getting to first base.

I always wondered what a major league pitch looked like coming at you. A friend of mine from many years ago tried out for the Houston Astros. When they were timing him for pure raw speed he threw a ball 99.8 miles an hour, three times in a row. He was frustrated that he just missed triple digits. Since I wasn't into baseball it took me awhile to realize how good those numbers were.

Hu

If he could throw strikes at that speed, they would sign him in a minute. He only needed to come in and strike out one or two batters and make a mil (or more) a year. If you can throw 99 mph fast balls, you don't need a curve. :)
 
they made an offer . . .

jay helfert said:
If he could throw strikes at that speed, they would sign him in a minute. He only needed to come in and strike out one or two batters and make a mil (or more) a year. If you can throw 99 mph fast balls, you don't need a curve. :)


They made an offer. He lived in Baker La. right above Baton Rouge and his mother had a bad heart. His parents were divorced and his mother would have been left alone had he went. Hundred mile an hour fast ball or not they were sending him to a farm team first for nice bucks but not huge. Early seventies and I think the offer was less than a hundred K, definitely not much more. He opted not to go. I never saw him pitch so I have no idea what his skills or durability were. I think he went straight from high school to local amateur leagues with no college ball.

Hu
 
Back
Top