Kick balls to the pocket....how often

3

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
do you make them?

When the OB is close to the rail (little more than a ball-two ball away)are you able to pretty accurately kick that OB to a target(pocket or other ball) and control the CB as well?

Do you use intuition? Do you have a system?

I'm remembering seeing Jose Parica in a match video-kick a ball in the corner pocket where he was measuring something with his thumb/middle finger span as if were a ruler. The approach angle of the CB to the rail was about 45 degrees. He pocketed the OB and stuck the CB for the next shot. Had the OB missed, he would have hooked the incoming player. Seemed pretty strong and accurate.

Do you just hit a zillion of these untill it looks right, or is there a reliable method to try to learn?

Much like a crossover bank two way shot, where you can run the CB behind traffic for a shot if you make the bank, or a safety if you miss-it seems that a 'cross under' kick and run the CB could be another possible shot option in certain situations.

Really, I'm looking for a system. I don't have a couple zillions shots left in me.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Thanks

BTW: Anybody see or hear of Parica lately?
 
I am by no means going to be able to provide you with a system that will enable you to usually make the type of kick that you are talking about, but I do shoot them quite frequently and have been known to make a few. I don't usually worry too much about the cue ball, but will try to use whatever is available in terms of leaving things safe for my opponent, whether that involves the cue ball or the object ball.

For me, one of the most frequently used one rail kicks is the straight off the rail kick. This comes in handy when the vee kick isn't available (same angle in and out). It also works when the vee is available but is hard to make a good hit on. Say you are having to kick to the end rail and back. It is much easier to find a spot on the end rail directly in line with the object ball and come straight up table on it off the rail. Practice making the cue ball come straight off the rail from a bunch of different angles and speeds.

I also find myself using a straight shot to the rail with an angle out pretty often, so figuring out how to judge the spin to angle to speed ratio is a good idea. I don't have a system for shooting bank shots either. If I have a kick where the object ball is relatively close to the rail, I'll go behind it and see where I have to hit it to get it where I want it and then see where the cue ball has to hit the rail to hit the object ball at the aim point. If it's out in the middle of the table, I just use feel. When I'm playing by myself, I usually shoot rotation so that I get to practice a lot of kicking and banking.

Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I'm only aspiring to be a good player, not a great player.
 
saw jose last year and he looked good and played very well.......we played some onehole and he hooked me and i massed the CB around the block and banked my 3, and I looked at him and he had a huge smile of appreciation in his face, and i then ran 7.......when the end game situation arrived Jose showed why he's the assasin when he left me a nail biting trap that I fell right into lol...

anyways i was rambling....

Generally I prefer on single rail kicks to use that tangent system to find my aim point on the rail. If the OB is sitting so that it will fall when hit and I need CB position then I'll pick a spot on the rail before the CB and find the aim point for that so I'm kicking into a kick so i can get the correct travel.

also got to be careful applying draw and follow b/c players kill themselves with scratches on those shots.........draw off the rail is follow and follow is "draw" off the rail depending on the distance and amount of spin.

But a strong straight one rail kick with the OB sitting dead in the center of it a nice follow stroke with speed will effectively kill the CB after the hit at least in terms of its angular velocity toward scratching in the pocket....you'll probably get a little off square hit and get a little movement but it wont follow and scratch.........but like I said this has it limitations.

No system is going to tell you exactly where to hit b/c each table is diff. So even tho I'll use a tangent system to find that exact point I can easily screw up the shot by hitting it the wrong speed or with an incorrect hit on the OB.

You definately have to build up a good ROTE system for any good kicking and banking system to be effective for you. (Rote system: feel based)

It is not an exact science.

There are also diamond systems out there that use simple math to figure the kicks out into exact points on the table using numbers to represent the positions of the balls in relation to the diamonds but this takes practice to be able to do the math quickly and make it natural.

You may even use multiple systems at one time to gain more comparison and possibly a greater edge of exactness........and like all things the more info you can give your brain the more success it will have in working out the problem.

-Grey GHost-
 
Kicking balls

Kicking is a huge part of One Pocket.
Buy Gradys Kicking Tapes and practice 15 minutes a day , and watch your ability skyrocket.
 
There are lots of systems out there where you can hit exactly where you want to without fail. You just have to 'know the shots' just like you know how far to draw a ball back. I use a very simple system taught to me by Jim Whitman. I feel very lucky to know it. Normally the simpler the system the better it will work.

Within diamond systems, there are variations and adaptations. Using a combination of english and knowing what to look for is the key. I am not going to pretend to be an expert, because I am not, but one of the the most common systems I use has nothing to do with the diamond system in terms of math calculations; however, the diamonds are helpful in terms of reference points and aiming your shot. You can also use objects off the table to aim and make your ball every time without fail, but you gotta know your equipment.

There is a good Donald Duck video to help you get started, just look for it on yotube.

3RAILKICK said:
do you make them?

When the OB is close to the rail (little more than a ball-two ball away)are you able to pretty accurately kick that OB to a target(pocket or other ball) and control the CB as well?

Do you use intuition? Do you have a system?

I'm remembering seeing Jose Parica in a match video-kick a ball in the corner pocket where he was measuring something with his thumb/middle finger span as if were a ruler. The approach angle of the CB to the rail was about 45 degrees. He pocketed the OB and stuck the CB for the next shot. Had the OB missed, he would have hooked the incoming player. Seemed pretty strong and accurate.

Do you just hit a zillion of these untill it looks right, or is there a reliable method to try to learn?

Much like a crossover bank two way shot, where you can run the CB behind traffic for a shot if you make the bank, or a safety if you miss-it seems that a 'cross under' kick and run the CB could be another possible shot option in certain situations.

Really, I'm looking for a system. I don't have a couple zillions shots left in me.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Thanks

BTW: Anybody see or hear of Parica lately?
Click to expand...
 
Kick aiming....

Edited to fix spacing.... Dunno if this will work.... Looks ok when editing....

I saw this somewhere.... Don't remember where, but I've tried it and it's a good starting point.

"Measure" the distance from the point on the object ball where you need to hit it to make it go in to the rail

Aim at a point that is the same distance parallel to this point (you will be aiming somewhere on the rail or even off the table.

A crude drawing to try to show what I mean

C = cue ball
O = Object ball
B = blocking ball
aim here
{cue ball will hit v Pocket
somewhere in here} ! v
==============================================||
! ||
O ||
B ||
||
C ||
||
||

If the point on O you need to hit it to make it is 2 inches from the rail (======), you would aim 2 inches to the left of the rail (=====) to make it.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Sorry for the crude drawing. I'm at work......
 
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3RAILKICK said:
do you make them?

When the OB is close to the rail (little more than a ball-two ball away)are you able to pretty accurately kick that OB to a target(pocket or other ball) and control the CB as well?
Click to expand...

Distance: Side to side kicks:
Make them: most of the time, get position, a good percent of the time.

Here the distance is short and the probability of interfering balls is lower, so one can use more speed, and improve the odds of position. But you still sacrifice position for potting of the ball.

Distance: end to end kicks:
Make them: a good percentage. Get position afterwards: most of the time, no. You shoot the CB to make the OB and choose the speed and spin of the CB to make the OB and take whatever position is left.

I use the diamonds to figure out the angles. The speed is emensely important, and mostly consists of "just enough" speed. If you have to manouver the CB around other OBs carefully apply as little side spin as possible to change the direction of the CB comming off the rail.
 
I don't have a system for the shot you're talking about but if there is I'm sure things will change depending on the table conditions.

My only advice is to make sure to walk over to the other side of the table so that you can see where the cue ball is coming from. This will give you a fair idea of what needs to happen. For me it's important to analyze the kick from both sides of the table to get a good perspective of the kick.
 
I agree get Gradys kicks only dvd watch it 20 or thirty times because all the great info. It takes a while to absorb all the shots
Practice does make perfect
 
Kicking

3RAILKICK said:
do you make them?

When the OB is close to the rail (little more than a ball-two ball away)are you able to pretty accurately kick that OB to a target(pocket or other ball) and control the CB as well?

Do you use intuition? Do you have a system?

I'm remembering seeing Jose Parica in a match video-kick a ball in the corner pocket where he was measuring something with his thumb/middle finger span as if were a ruler. The approach angle of the CB to the rail was about 45 degrees. He pocketed the OB and stuck the CB for the next shot. Had the OB missed, he would have hooked the incoming player. Seemed pretty strong and accurate.

Do you just hit a zillion of these untill it looks right, or is there a reliable method to try to learn?

Much like a crossover bank two way shot, where you can run the CB behind traffic for a shot if you make the bank, or a safety if you miss-it seems that a 'cross under' kick and run the CB could be another possible shot option in certain situations.

Really, I'm looking for a system. I don't have a couple zillions shots left in me.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Thanks

BTW: Anybody see or hear of Parica lately?
Click to expand...

Easiest kick to learn is across the width of table, OB about 1.5 ball off rail. Imagine ghost ball or place another OB in space lined up with side pocket. Very easy to visualize. Learn this easy one first and others later. Shoot with low and cue will stop for position or safety. Kicking is huge skill and big shot in your arsenal. These can be slammed if you want to show off! Allow for sinking to rail
 
I have a friend Mike Mitchell who some of you know, he is a very talented gifted player. we go back to 85. He named me "Fatboy".

Enough about that, lets talk about the topic, Kicking balls in. Its better to try and look for a shot to play safe than kick a ball in and run out-most of the time. The only time you would kick a ball is if you dont have a edge and are totally blocked and just cant see the ball period. There might be a few exceptions to that but if you miss kicking a ball in and dont leave your man safe you will most likely lose. So therefore kicking in balls is a last resort play(most of the time).

Unless your Mike Mitchell, he kicks in balls better than anyone I have ever seen play, yes better than Efren. He kickes them in and runs out, he was kicking in balls before he knew how to run out when we were first comming up(he is a much stronger player than me). I donr know how he judges the kicks, but he does. he plays good kick safes too but not like Efren or other top pro's. But when he has to kick a ball to make it-in the side where its clear he is trying to shoot the ball in the hole he fires them in better than anyone. I'm not talikng about kicking 3 rails to just hit the proper side of a OB to return a safe and lucking in a ball. When he is shooting to make a kick he makes them period.


Another cool story:

I had a rail bet once at the Rum Runner tournment about 18-19 years ago for all the $$$ in my pocket, toby and me went halfs and bet $500 on Morro to beat someone it was hill/hill, Morro dead hooked himself on a low number ball kicked it in, then again on the 7 he hooked himself 100% and kicked it in and won, I grabbed the $500 and left-my nerves were shot for the day. 2 kicks in one rack was all I could stand and I was betting way too much. This was on a barbox so its a bit easier but kicking is a last resort.
 
In snooker, Jimmy White brought up an interesting way to visualise these doubles (called "kick shots" in pool) which was to imagine that the table layout was mirrored onto a second table directly next to it, cushion-to-cushion. In other words, you are shooting at that imagined object ball on the imagined adjacent table. This has helped me play doubles much more effectively and I think would be useful for playing pool as well.
 
Lux said:
In snooker, Jimmy White brought up an interesting way to visualise these doubles (called "kick shots" in pool) which was to imagine that the table layout was mirrored onto a second table directly next to it, cushion-to-cushion. In other words, you are shooting at that imagined object ball on the imagined adjacent table. This has helped me play doubles much more effectively and I think would be useful for playing pool as well.
Click to expand...

the mirror system is well known by most advanced pool players......not so well known by the newer guys as its not going to be found in any simpleton pool books that I know of.

Not that its extremely complicated, just for whatever reason even though its one of the easiest for a beginner nor novice to understand as to how to aim for a single rail kick or a bank.....(mirror system is more commonly refered as a banking method for one and two railers,2rails is a also known as a Z bank)

but there is a big element of feel......you have to learn to pin point that distance correct. Just the same as the mirror method is just the single rail version of the "spot on the wall" trick for multi rail (short to long, or long to short) kicks and banks. You have to learn to blind estimate the exact lengths and widths and extend them since you can't walk around with a range finder and tapemeasure.


I liken seeing those distances to when I used to lay asphalt back in college.......when you work the seams by hand with the loop you have to feather it bringing up the sand to the surface to get it smooth and then you have to make it level........you can't use anykind of level you have to learn to see it.......and let me tell you IT TAKES PRACTICE TO BUILD THAT SKILL.........to this day when I walk places or even in houses I can read a slope like a MF'R because it was my job, I don't play golf but I wouldn't doubt that I could do well on the read of the short game side with some practice.


Its hard seeing imaginary stuff.....some people can't even do that. Some pick it up super easy, some don't b/c of the lack of skill in blind measuring lengths and widths and extending them from the proper points in square or plumb fashion.

If you have trouble imagining ghost ball then odds are you won't like using any mirror methods or spot on the wall style methods for kicks and banks........

Not that this is a bad thing as there are many many ways to figure banks, you just use what accents your fortes and helps squash your inefficiencies.

-Grey Ghost-
 
Lux said:
In snooker, Jimmy White brought up an interesting way to visualise these doubles (called "kick shots" in pool) which was to imagine that the table layout was mirrored onto a second table directly next to it, cushion-to-cushion. In other words, you are shooting at that imagined object ball on the imagined adjacent table. This has helped me play doubles much more effectively and I think would be useful for playing pool as well.
Click to expand...

One of the comments repeated in the pool postings is that snooker players don't bank.
The newer players on the circuit, such as current world champion Neil Robertson will bank shots even when the match is on the line.

Snooker players need to know the angles.
In snooker a ball does not have to make a rail.
So rolling up behind a ball for a snooker is a regular safety play.
When banking out of the snooker, perhaps several rails, the attempt is to put the cue ball where there is no shot - on a twelve foot table.
Top pros can trade safeties indefinitely.
I once saw a match, with seven balls left on the table, turned into a safety battle that made the frame one of the longest ever played.
Lasted more than 75 minutes.

The point of this ramble? :D
They have the table speed down cold.
 
Scaramouche said:
One of the comments repeated in the pool postings is that snooker players don't bank.
The newer players on the circuit, such as current world champion Neil Robertson will bank shots even when the match is on the line.

Snooker players need to know the angles.
In snooker a ball does not have to make a rail.
So rolling up behind a ball for a snooker is a regular safety play.
When banking out of the snooker, perhaps several rails, the attempt is to put the cue ball where there is no shot - on a twelve foot table.
Top pros can trade safeties indefinitely.
I once saw a match, with seven balls left on the table, turned into a safety battle that made the frame one of the longest ever played.
Lasted more than 75 minutes.

The point of this ramble? :D
They have the table speed down cold.
Click to expand...
this is because the equipment is pretty much the same and the condition too. Actually they play with riley tables in every tournament. Pool players have to adapt to brunswick, diamond, in the eurotour with dynamic, sometime olhausen,ecc. Every table plays different than the other. And snooker player usually don't bank is true. You picked up Robertson who plays very aggresively and he often tries shots most don't try. But most of them don't play double often in relation with pool player.
 
I like using similar triangles to figure out the aim point on the rail for one-rail kicks. Of course, rails play differently, and angle in does not necessarily equal angle out. So I try to play my kicks firmly, with enough low english that the CB is sliding when it contacts the rail, and about 1/4" of running english. It works pretty well for me; I can make shots like the one below much more consistently than the other players I play with.

CueTable Help



-Andrew
 
3RAILKICK said:
do you make them?

When the OB is close to the rail (little more than a ball-two ball away)are you able to pretty accurately kick that OB to a target(pocket or other ball) and control the CB as well?

Do you use intuition? Do you have a system?

I'm remembering seeing Jose Parica in a match video-kick a ball in the corner pocket where he was measuring something with his thumb/middle finger span as if were a ruler. The approach angle of the CB to the rail was about 45 degrees. He pocketed the OB and stuck the CB for the next shot. Had the OB missed, he would have hooked the incoming player. Seemed pretty strong and accurate.

Do you just hit a zillion of these untill it looks right, or is there a reliable method to try to learn?

Much like a crossover bank two way shot, where you can run the CB behind traffic for a shot if you make the bank, or a safety if you miss-it seems that a 'cross under' kick and run the CB could be another possible shot option in certain situations.

Really, I'm looking for a system. I don't have a couple zillions shots left in me.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Thanks

BTW: Anybody see or hear of Parica lately?
Click to expand...




Everyone-Thank you for your helpful comments.

One poster talks about creating a right angle with the thumb and middle finger as a measurement device.

If memory serves, Parica did do something similar when measuring his successful kick to the corner on a ball that was maybe two balls away from the cushion. The CB approach angle to the rail was about 45 degrees.

He seemed to measure rail to the ball (contact point?) with his 'thumb/middlefinger' ruler(straight out from/and perpendicular to the rail).
I think he then rotated his ruler/compass, pivoting at the rail point to find an equidistant point on the rail in the direction of the incoming CB that served as an aiming point or reference for the kick(two equal legs of triangle?).

As viewed from the CB, that seems to come close to a visualized angle in/angle out, 90degree right angle (cb to rail/rail to ob). I think the shot that I am remembering was just off of the second diamond between the side and the corner. That would make it about 45 in 45 out-so maybe measuring and visualizing a right angle cb path only helps from certain set ups.

I think I better get to work hitting a zillion of these from a variety of close to the rail locations.



Thanks again everyone.

PS: dabarbr-glad to see you posting-hope you are doing well. Have you seen Jose lately? Heard he hasn't been to HT ist Sunday for a while.

Take care
 
Scaramouche said:
One of the comments repeated in the pool postings is that snooker players don't bank.
The newer players on the circuit, such as current world champion Neil Robertson will bank shots even when the match is on the line.

Snooker players need to know the angles.
In snooker a ball does not have to make a rail.
So rolling up behind a ball for a snooker is a regular safety play.
When banking out of the snooker, perhaps several rails, the attempt is to put the cue ball where there is no shot - on a twelve foot table.
Top pros can trade safeties indefinitely.
I once saw a match, with seven balls left on the table, turned into a safety battle that made the frame one of the longest ever played.
Lasted more than 75 minutes.

The point of this ramble? :D
They have the table speed down cold.
Click to expand...
Neil Robertson is a special case. Throughout his career as a crowd-pleaser, he's regularly attempted some outrageous volleys on the table, so his case can't truly be a good example. Ranked world professionals also play on environmentally controlled tables (heated slate, controlled humidity, computer-aided leveling) so they can feel the run of the table easier.
Slh said:
this is because the equipment is pretty much the same and the condition too. Actually they play with riley tables in every tournament. Pool players have to adapt to brunswick, diamond, in the eurotour with dynamic, sometime olhausen,ecc. Every table plays different than the other. And snooker player usually don't bank is true. You picked up Robertson who plays very aggresively and he often tries shots most don't try. But most of them don't play double often in relation with pool player.
Click to expand...
Actually, snooker tables are not consistent whereas pool tables usually are more so. This is because the construction of quaity snooker tables use a "floating" cushion design that allows for flexible pocket size adjustment. Star, Riley, and BCE all make tables of this style. I've played on many different Riley Tournament tables and the pocket sizes on those tables can vary quite dramatically because of the floating rail design. Fit your fist in the pockets of a club Riley and you'll find noticeable variations in width, even on the same table!
 
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