Kicking: system or seeing it

K

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When you kick how many of you use a system like a diamond system or do you just see an image of the cue ball hitting the rails and and then hitting the object ball.

Some people kick 2 or 3 rails and shoot so quickly. I can't understand how they see multiple rail kick shots.
 
kaznj said:
When you kick how many of you use a system like a diamond system or do you just see an image of the cue ball hitting the rails and and then hitting the object ball.

Some people kick 2 or 3 rails and shoot so quickly. I can't understand how they see multiple rail kick shots.
Click to expand...


I kick by feel. There ARE rare occasions where I will refer to a system. Sometimes, I'll feel it first, double-check with a system to see if it's at all close and then I'll go with the spot I first decided on. The only time I go with a system is when I absolutely positively have no clue where the cueball is going to end up.


I do this because frankly, systems are limited to a specific speed and spin and advanced kicking requires you to do a little more than that. If your goal is to leave your opponent safe, you're going to have to be able to change it up according to the specifics of the situation.
 
Hello sir,

I'm not good at systems, truthfully. I "see" it...and go from what "feels" right.
Remember this :
Repetition leads to retention.

-Peace
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I kick by feel. There ARE rare occasions where I will refer to a system. Sometimes, I'll feel it first, double-check with a system to see if it's at all close and then I'll go with the spot I first decided on. The only time I go with a system is when I absolutely positively have no clue where the cueball is going to end up.


I do this because frankly, systems are limited to a specific speed and spin and advanced kicking requires you to do a little more than that. If your goal is to leave your opponent safe, you're going to have to be able to change it up according to the specifics of the situation.
Click to expand...

yea what you said!! I usually go by just seeing it/feeling it. I've hit so many kick shots that it's really easy to see where the cue ball is going to go, even with more then one rail.

Of course the system is always there if needed. If it's league play and I'm coaching someone that doesn't see or feel the kick shot then I have show them where to hit it using the system.
 
I have found that using a system in practice will help you learn to see the paths more clearly. Once you can see and feel the correct and possible paths, the system math or geometries don't need to be calculated. But those same maths and geometries are invaluable in learning these paths for the first time, in my experience.

Dave
 
Systems, there are systems for kicking, dang I have been playing for 30 years and I always just used feel and logic.

-don
 
I may use a system to check myself if its an important kick shot. For the most part I try to just cut my kicks down with a little speed. I tend to be more accurate when trying to kick a ball in that way.
 
kaznj...Although I KNOW my own 'systems' so well, I just "see" the right place to hit the first rail, Jude is correct about stroke speed and spin being huge factors in getting a consistent kick...whether it's 1-, 2-, or 3-rail kicks. When I teach or demonstrate these kicks to a student, like yourself, we teach track lines, and how to adjust when the track lines don't take the CB to where you want it to go. You'll learn a lot more about this in the Xpert Class, at the end of this month. See you in about 3 weeks! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

kaznj said:
When you kick how many of you use a system like a diamond system or do you just see an image of the cue ball hitting the rails and and then hitting the object ball.

Some people kick 2 or 3 rails and shoot so quickly. I can't understand how they see multiple rail kick shots.
Click to expand...
 
I will openly admit that kicking is probably the weakest part of my game. I suck so bad at it it's not even funny.........oh, and combinations. Leave me a kick or a combination and you can pretty much feel confident to get back at the table.
MULLY
 
DaveK said:
I have found that using a system in practice will help you learn to see the paths more clearly. Once you can see and feel the correct and possible paths, the system math or geometries don't need to be calculated. But those same maths and geometries are invaluable in learning these paths for the first time, in my experience.

Dave
Click to expand...

Yes. Systems are approximations by nature, not expected or intended to be the last word on any given shot. They're a good way to speed up the learning process and a good "starting point" or "second opinion" for estimating kick angles in action, but they're usually not exactly how you should shoot any particular shot, even a simple one-railer.

pj
chgo
 
I use a very simple system for 1 rail and two rail kicks as a tool to help me see the kick channel path.

Quite often I don't even realize I am using the system to help me see the shot.

Ultimatley you have to "see" the kick... but don't let anyone tell you that they rely on feel alone.

Efren uses a system to aid him in seeing the kick...

Heck as soon as you see someone point a cue toward something, or touch a point on a rail...weather they realize it or not they are using some form of system to get a vision of the shot.

Even trial and error is a system of sorts...
 
Little Joe Villapando has the best kicking system I've seen. I think its best to use the system as a guide, then feel it from there.
 
My humble, non-inflamatory op:

Kicking by feel is a lot of fun, especially when your intuition is well-trained. It's really impressive to novice players when you just step up and 2/3 rail kick at balls and hit them often.

However...

You really need to know and understand the systems that drive those shots. Of course, all tables are different. Assuming you're playing on different equipment every day, your feel won't get you farther than a legitimate system. In short, the system is the foundation for how you approach and envision the shot. Adjustments based on the equipment is where intuition comes in.

If you're looking to hit a particular piece of the ball (i.e. kick-safe), you better know the geometry behind it when the CASH is on the line and your heart is pounding through your throat.

Jude, I'm not calling you out because you're one of my fav posters on here, but I doubt if you had to kick around traffic hill-hill for a ton of cash, you'd just step into the shot where you felt you needed to hit and not measure it up... ESP if you were trying more than to just hit it.

Training your intuition/feel is a good thing, but it should be based on something tangible.

Just my humble, non-player opinion :)
 
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Jude Rosenstock said:
I kick by feel. There ARE rare occasions where I will refer to a system. Sometimes, I'll feel it first, double-check with a system to see if it's at all close and then I'll go with the spot I first decided on. The only time I go with a system is when I absolutely positively have no clue where the cueball is going to end up.


I do this because frankly, systems are limited to a specific speed and spin and advanced kicking requires you to do a little more than that. If your goal is to leave your opponent safe, you're going to have to be able to change it up according to the specifics of the situation.
Click to expand...

Quite true. I studied and experimented with a few banking and kicking systems that have been published. My observation is the systems are precise, even accurate on a theoretical level. However, since there are other extraneous variables that interplay, I came to a conclusion that adjustments need to be made almost every time. The systems are good in providing the principles but ultimately the practical application still is the main determinant of the outcome. In most cases, the shooter will need to be aware, understand and respond to the table and room conditions to successfully execute a shot and also place the cue ball at the desired spot after the shot. In most cases it's the feel (of course aided by the system) that ultimately makes the shot and the cue ball position.
 
Yes, pretty much a feel skill with an occassional geometry check. Get a set of billiard balls, and on your pocket table, play straight rail, cushon carom, or red ball. You will be amazed at how much this will improve your kicking skills when applied to pocket games.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Jude, I'm not calling you out because you're one of my fav posters on here, but I doubt if you had to kick around traffic hill-hill for a ton of cash, you'd just step into the shot where you felt you needed to hit and not measure it up... ESP if you were trying more than to just hit it.


Just my humble, non-player opinion :)
Click to expand...


Well, I'm not saying I wouldn't take my time but if you think I'm using a system, you'll be disappointed.
 
I kick at balls with a very high percentage of success. For me systems are just a benchmark. They help you learn to calculate your kicks and learn the tracking systems, but they aren't the end all or be all. They are simply a place to start.

Kicking and banking (hell Pool) is all about visuallization, if you can't visualize it then you can't make it. Systems help you learn to visualize the shots, they give you a base point to start with. After that it's a solid stroke and good form.

If you truly want to be good at kicking then a good foundation of multiple systems is a great place to start.

SGM
 
SpiderWebComm said:
You really need to know and understand the systems that drive those shots. Of course, all tables are different.
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You know, it is funny that you mentioned this. (well, not funny ha, ha; just funny). I was playing a league tournament this weekend. It was on 7' Diamonds. I placed the CB at the corner pocket (to shoot the 3 railer) in order to see if the table was playing short/long. (oh, a system being used).

The table was extremely damp from rains the previous night. I tried shooting the CB through the 2 1/2 diamond mark, no luck. Next shot, no luck. All were coming short.

Long story short (like the table was playing), I had to shoot into the 1st diamond with about 1/2 tip of INSIDE english (just missing the side pocket) in order to make the 3 rail shot in the corner..:eek:

I think you are correct and as others have stated. A system is a good starting point and you need that to insure the "feel shot" you are executing is in the right direction.
 
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