LAYERED TIPS

[Cornerman]

I have been using Le pro tips for 40 years. Is there any advantage to
the expensive layered tips?

Thanks

I wrote a Tip Article for InsidePOOL Mqgazine in 2005 when layered tips were just starting to catch their groove. Tiger and Talisman had joined Moori into the mix. That was 16 years ago! Seems like … well … 16 years ago.

I listed down a few advantages/disadvantages for both. For disadvantages, I noted that the exposed glue layers, you’d actually be hitting on an inconsistent surface. It might seem trivial since the contact should be chalk covered, but years later, it seems obvious to me that the observations of “glazing” has to be because of the glue layers. In layman terms, there’s friction, heat, and an adhesive material that is susceptible to that heat. There’s no reason to think that glue wouldn’t flow/creep.

I have dozens of layered tips in my supply box, including a couple of original Mooris. I use pressed Triangles today.

 

[garczar]

Ok, well I kind of take offense at, “know how to chalk a cue “. Perhaps that’s your intent. Regardless, I know what I experienced and will try to relate it accurately. In a $5 tournament it was a shot that required special sauce. I was in the zone and focused. So when I misscued it was a mystery. So when I examined the tip, sure enough there was a bald spot and missing glue. Upon examining the cue ball…..there was the missing glue. The fact that glue leaves the tip and resides on the cue ball is obvious. Cue balls never collected fly specks before layered tips.

Was talking about players in general. Relax brother.

 

[ShootingArts]

I like single layer tips. First and foremost, because they are made of one piece of leather! When you get a multi-layer tip each layer can come from a different hide, each layer can come from a vastly different place. The hide in some places is many times thicker than it is in others. Stronger and tougher too and a vastly different grain. When I was installing tips I bought a few layered tips to try, then about thirty or so. Out of those thirty about ten percent or so exploded on the lathe. A closer exam showed a layer had crumbled. Crap, at six or eight dollars a tip that can get old in a hurry! Even if those lesser leather quality layers survive the install they often don't survive a player's scuffing. As a player I had an issue with the tips being hard center soft outside, soft center hard outside, as I went through the layers of leather and glue. I am sensitive to such things as I am a very casual chalker. I chalk before a game and before a shot when I am hitting well away from the center of the cue ball. I use Master chalk. with a single layer tip I may go months between miscues, I can't remember the last one. Layered tips? Pretty much an every session thing.

If you put on a good single layer tip it is good, from top to as low as you like to go on a tip. Can't say the same about layered tips where each layer is a new experience, hopefully similar!

There are a few tricks to single layer tips. I check them for size, never found an issue but purely a part of my routine. I want to be sure the size is consistent because my next step is to weigh them. The last box of fifty tips had nine that were superlight. Threw them away. That made my cost per tip explode to close to forty-five cents each! After throwing away the light tips I have found zero bad tips among the other forty-one. Playing with some right now myself. Gauging and weighing tips takes about thirty minutes for a box of fifty by the way, not spending hours over this.

To each his own. I find single layer tips and plain chalk to work for me. My stick would start putting on airs if I powdered it's nose with forty dollar make-up before every shot!

Hu

 

[garczar]

I like single layer tips. First and foremost, because they are made of one piece of leather! When you get a multi-layer tip each layer can come from a different hide, each layer can come from a vastly different place. The hide in some places is many times thicker than it is in others. Stronger and tougher too and a vastly different grain. When I was installing tips I bought a few layered tips to try, then about thirty or so. Out of those thirty about ten percent or so exploded on the lathe. A closer exam showed a layer had crumbled. Crap, at six or eight dollars a tip that can get old in a hurry! Even if those lesser leather quality layers survive the install they often don't survive a player's scuffing. As a player I had an issue with the tips being hard center soft outside, soft center hard outside, as I went through the layers of leather and glue. I am sensitive to such things as I am a very casual chalker. I chalk before a game and before a shot when I am hitting well away from the center of the cue ball. I use Master chalk. with a single layer tip I may go months between miscues, I can't remember the last one. Layered tips? Pretty much an every session thing.

If you put on a good single layer tip it is good, from top to as low as you like to go on a tip. Can't say the same about layered tips where each layer is a new experience, hopefully similar!

There are a few tricks to single layer tips. I check them for size, never found an issue but purely a part of my routine. I want to be sure the size is consistent because my next step is to weigh them. The last box of fifty tips had nine that were superlight. Threw them away. That made my cost per tip explode to close to forty-five cents each! After throwing away the light tips I have found zero bad tips among the other forty-one. Playing with some right now myself. Gauging and weighing tips takes about thirty minutes for a box of fifty by the way, not spending hours over this.

To each his own. I find single layer tips and plain chalk to work for me. My stick would start putting on airs if I powdered it's nose with forty dollar make-up before every shot!

Hu

Sounds like some really bad tips you got a hold of. Single-ply tips have one big problem and that's the leather itself. Tweeten uses water buffalo for their tips and they don't always get the same part of the hide from their supplier. Some areas are firm and make great tips and other areas yield 'spongey' pieces of shit. I've never seen the problems/inconsistency you mention in layered tips i've used. I did buy some cheap tips from the a-hole in Fla. and every one came apart on the lathe. The Ultraskins, Thorobreds i've used have been flawless.

 

[mrpiper]

I always find it much more repectable to blame the tip rather than my error for any really challenging missed shot!
I use a Break cue, and as such, I don't do a lot of damage to tips while playing. Speed kills. I'm a soft shooter, always looking for position. A well shaped tip and a good chalking seem to be the keys for me. Soft or hard does FEEL different but I don't think either really changes my game.
I am a Triangle guy mostly, and while Lepro can vary, I find them mostly good these days. I have played layered Moori and Tiger and just keep going back to the others.

 

[whammo57]

if you need to scuff, tap, or pick your tip.......... get another because that one is not doing the job............ the great layered tips are SIB, G2, and precision.......... they all play great............ soft always mushroom, medium sometimes............... just wipe with a little 220 sand paper once in a while.............. they never glaze or delaminate.......... they all do gradually get harder from pounding the cue ball................ I play with a SIB cool blue medium and change it every month or so..............................

 

[middleofnowhere]

if you need to scuff, tap, or pick your tip.......... get another because that one is not doing the job............ the great layered tips are SIB, G2, and precision.......... they all play great............ soft always mushroom, medium sometimes............... just wipe with a little 220 sand paper once in a while.............. they never glaze or delaminate.......... they all do gradually get harder from pounding the cue ball................ I play with a SIB cool blue medium and change it every month or so..............................

You change your tip every month???

 

[garczar]

if you need to scuff, tap, or pick your tip.......... get another because that one is not doing the job............ the great layered tips are SIB, G2, and precision.......... they all play great............ soft always mushroom, medium sometimes............... just wipe with a little 220 sand paper once in a while.............. they never glaze or delaminate.......... they all do gradually get harder from pounding the cue ball................ I play with a SIB cool blue medium and change it every month or so..............................

220sp is scuffing it. I use a kamui-style scuffer(https://www.ebay.com/itm/3135985000...d=link&campid=5335988529&toolid=20001&mkevt=1) that is approx. same as 220 texture. I never use a pik on one.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I wrote a Tip Article for InsidePOOL Mqgazine in 2005 when layered tips were just starting to catch their groove. Tiger and Talisman had joined Moori into the mix. That was 16 years ago! Seems like … well … 16 years ago.

I listed down a few advantages/disadvantages for both. For disadvantages, I noted that the exposed glue layers, you’d actually be hitting on an inconsistent surface. It might seem trivial since the contact should be chalk covered, but years later, it seems obvious to me that the observations of “glazing” has to be because of the glue layers. In layman terms, there’s friction, heat, and an adhesive material that is susceptible to that heat. There’s no reason to think that glue wouldn’t flow/creep.

I have dozens of layered tips in my supply box, including a couple of original Mooris. I use pressed Triangles today.

The worst glazing I've seen came from single layer tips. Well, let me rephrase that... The worst glazing I've seen was on the LePro tips. I have yet to have a glazing problem with the Moori hard. I think it's due to something I do every time I put my cue away. I might open a new thread and discuss that.

 

[gregcantrall]

Was talking about players in general. Relax brother.

Oh I’m relaxed. Just took my meds.
This discussion has brought a few characters I have encountered in my semi pro tour of the west coast.
Tip blame and flagellation being a common display.
I am not that guy. I needed to be real with myself. When it’s me I need to admit it and do what I can to fix it. I am capable of all the flaws, as even the top pros. But through the honing of skills the numbers validate the training effort.
One guy I knew was changing tips at least weekly.
My tip situation is under control and I am biased against the layered tips based on just 1 failure. The next time I get a clank I will be sure it was me!

 

[boogieman]

if you need to scuff, tap, or pick your tip.......... get another because that one is not doing the job............ the great layered tips are SIB, G2, and precision.......... they all play great............ soft always mushroom, medium sometimes............... just wipe with a little 220 sand paper once in a while.............. they never glaze or delaminate.......... they all do gradually get harder from pounding the cue ball................ I play with a SIB cool blue medium and change it every month or so..............................

I respectfully disagree. If someone doesn't know how to properly scuff, tap, pick, or "set the chalk" on the tip, they're not experiencing ANY tip properly. Sometimes you might have to do all of these, other times only one or a few. A side note, I personally find tappers and picks worthless. This is what I do and my "must have" tools for the job:

If your tip isn't retaining chalk as it should, scuff the tip until it's scuffed. You want no shiny or hard spots. You want a consistent leather base to work with. It doesn't have to be devoid of chalk at this point, but no hard or shiny spots. You're not trying to get to "new bare leather." Use sandpaper, Brad Scuffer (my favorite just don't get aggressive), or whatever. Brad Scuffer is perfect as it is flat enough to let you touch the exact spot you want. A small rasp might work too. I don't like Willard as it is rounded, think drilling the chalk as opposed to painting it. By the time you're scuffed with Willard, you've removed a lot of tip material. Chalk the piss out of the tip. Joe Porper Prikstik is a wonderful tool. Roll the Prikstik into the chalked tip, press it into the leather. You're pressing the chalk into the indentations with a rolling motion, radially from edge to center, rotate stick and continue until you've made your way around. You're not trying to stab the tip but fill it with consistent indentations. After this is done, re chalk the cue and go to work.

Sure, you don't have to do any of these things, but if you don't know how to nitpick the hell out of ANY tip, you're not getting the most out of it. Leather isn't naturally made to be embedded with chalk, it's up to the tip's owner to know how to do so if they want the best experience. If you're really changing tips every month, either you don't know proper maintenance or you are using garbage tips. I'm not trying to be a dick here, just saying what I believe to be true.

I'm not saying to do this stuff all the time, but once you are starting to notice your tip isn't holding chalk as well, it's time to nitpick it a bit. Usually once you scruff a tip and properly set the chalk, you don't have to touch it for around 20 hours of play, even when using plain Jane chalk.

I use DIY medium-hard to hard pressed Elkmaster milkduds. I break and play with the same tip. With this method they don't require any other maintenance and will last for a year or two with heavy playtime. When you "dress" your tip, you're not removing material, just scuffing it and raising the outer compacted leather. If you break with the tip, it will naturally flatten a bit from a dime radius into a quarter radius. This isn't a bad thing, but is actually an ideal tip. On spin shots you hit with the edge of your tip anyway, I would personally rather have a larger radius rather than trying to hit off a small radius. If you like dime shape, then get a dedicated break stick because you won't keep a dime shape if you break with it. Tip shape is personal preference, but if you've never tried a quarter radius don't knock it!

When installing a milkdud, I burnish the piss out of the sides and never have mushrooming. If you burnish the sides of a layered tip as aggressively, you will risk de-lamination from the heat. Trust me, it's not pretty. An aggressive burnishing hardens the leather and it won't move. I usually follow the regular spit/water (or sharpie) burnishing with some renaissance wax to get a beautiful deep shine on the sides. R. wax also keeps the ferrule and shaft beautifully smooth and clean.

 

[ShootingArts]

Sounds like some really bad tips you got a hold of. Single-ply tips have one big problem and that's the leather itself. Tweeten uses water buffalo for their tips and they don't always get the same part of the hide from their supplier. Some areas are firm and make great tips and other areas yield 'spongey' pieces of shit. I've never seen the problems/inconsistency you mention in layered tips i've used. I did buy some cheap tips from the a-hole in Fla. and every one came apart on the lathe. The Ultraskins, Thorobreds i've used have been flawless.

I don't know if the information we get from tweeten is accurate. I found some of their brands to have very coarse grain, some very fine. Hard to believe they really come from the same hides.

Leather being a natural material is subject to very wide fluctuations. Another issue is that when dead animals are found often the hide is all that can be salvaged. Some of the cows have been dead a lot longer than others since they are often found as the spring thaw develops in northern climes. With the pressure on to salvage something I suspect some pretty rank hides get processed. A tannery is one of the most awesomely stinky things on earth! The final issue is the tanning. Some tanning techniques are far harsher than others and some processes are difficult to stop, destroying the leather.

All in all leather is a pretty unsatisfactory material to work with. A good piece is a wonderful thing, bad leather can be worse than garbage.

My experience is pretty old, yours is newer with a wider variety of tips available. I also think it is a bit of a crapshoot. We sing the praises of a brand we get a good batch of and damn the brands we get a bad batch of while somebody else has the opposite experience. I have had sorry experiences with a couple of the better known and respected suppliers and "the asshole in Florida" has treated me great when there was an issue. We all have a pretty tiny personal sample of dealings with people and materials to work with. I rarely disagree with somebody else's experience, most of us that have experience also have opinions based on that experience.

Hu

 

[Chili Palmer]

Kamui says to not sand the clear pad. Good luck getting glue to adhere long term on that, especially when the middle is concave. You really have to lightly sand them flat or they pop.

LOL, I didn't know that, I hit it with 220 every time and I do it on a flat surface. There's no way I'm NOT sanding down that shiny surface.

I also hit the end of the shaft with 220 from a flat surface (quick change post turned sideways).

 

[buckshotshoey]

LOL, I didn't know that, I hit it with 220 every time and I do it on a flat surface. There's no way I'm NOT sanding down that shiny surface.

I also hit the end of the shaft with 220 from a flat surface (quick change post turned sideways).

Go with 180 or even 150 if the 220 isnt cutting it. I use 150. Gives a coarser surface for the glue to grab.

 

[71dewajack]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, I haven't read every post on the thread.

I was watching a match on YouTube the other day. Gorst vs Gomez I believe from a few years ago. Wilson and Nick Varner got into an interesting discussion on tips.

Wilson talked about after trying so many tips, he prefers a good old Le Pro, despite inconsistencies with them.

Varner said he was using Moori's years ago and had a big money shot on the tour that was missed because of a glue mark from the tip. He never used them again.

 

[garczar]

I don't know if the information we get from tweeten is accurate. I found some of their brands to have very coarse grain, some very fine. Hard to believe they really come from the same hides.

Leather being a natural material is subject to very wide fluctuations. Another issue is that when dead animals are found often the hide is all that can be salvaged. Some of the cows have been dead a lot longer than others since they are often found as the spring thaw develops in northern climes. With the pressure on to salvage something I suspect some pretty rank hides get processed. A tannery is one of the most awesomely stinky things on earth! The final issue is the tanning. Some tanning techniques are far harsher than others and some processes are difficult to stop, destroying the leather.

All in all leather is a pretty unsatisfactory material to work with. A good piece is a wonderful thing, bad leather can be worse than garbage.

My experience is pretty old, yours is newer with a wider variety of tips available. I also think it is a bit of a crapshoot. We sing the praises of a brand we get a good batch of and damn the brands we get a bad batch of while somebody else has the opposite experience. I have had sorry experiences with a couple of the better known and respected suppliers and "the asshole in Florida" has treated me great when there was an issue. We all have a pretty tiny personal sample of dealings with people and materials to work with. I rarely disagree with somebody else's experience, most of us that have experience also have opinions based on that experience.

Hu

When i had the audacity to even question his tips he went BALLISTIC. The guy is complete tool. As for leather, best for tips would be the shoulder area. Worst would be the stomach. I've seen more than a few Tweeten tips that had to have come from belly leather. Heard they've improved. We'll see, got new Tri's on my Jensen.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I wonder if groundhog skin would make a good tip? The hunters on here know what I'm talking about.

And why we are on the subject, what is the actual glue used by tip makers? Trade secrets? Or is there any leaked info out there?

 

[ShootingArts]

When i had the audacity to even question his tips he went BALLISTIC. The guy is complete tool. As for leather, best for tips would be the shoulder area. Worst would be the stomach. I've seen more than a few Tweeten tips that had to have come from belly leather. Heard they've improved. We'll see, got new Tri's on my Jensen.

I do know he can be hard to deal with and hard to stomach. Funny thing, we had a mutual apathy when we started talking. Next thing you know he said you sound like the kind of guy I can deal with! Placed a few orders and they all went great. When I had some losses in shipping he way more than covered them. Dealt with him for years and was always happy.

I still have three feet of ivorine four that I didn't order and was billed for and shipped to remind me of some bad dealings with the guys that hold up the world! I ordered the one foot special sample they had discounted to get people to try it and got four feet instead, billed at thirty dollars or so a foot. Three-fourth of the stuff I ordered was like that, like a disgruntled employee deliberately grabbed from a bin next to what I wanted I think I ordered a dozen groups of things like a handful of pins and inserts. Eight out of the twelve things I ordered were wrong! Crap I wouldn't use building a cue for the most part so I just ate the components.

Most everything was just going on the shelf so I wasn't upset, call them and they would fix it, so I thought! The guy I talked to started off being a jerk and just got worse as the call continued. When I said something about it on the builders forum they said call back and talk to this guy, he is great and will make it right! Maybe so, but he was the jerk I had already talked to, I just threw the crap in a corner and forgot about it. Well mostly, that big white stalk of ivorine four reminded me of the deal every time I looked that way! Probably a half-dozen guys on the forum that I respected sang the praises of the guy, I remember him the same way you remember the guy in Florida! That is what I meant about small samples, or one thing anyway. Maybe he had just got off the phone to his ex mudda-in-law or something. All I remember is that I'm never going to deal with him again!

Hu

 

[KRJ]

No shit. Anything is possible but some things are HIGHLY unlikely, like this. I've never heard anyone in any poolroom i've been in or at any tournament i've attended that complained about miscues/misses due to glue lines. AGAIN: scuff the tip and use chalk. No problems.

That makes two of us. Also, why I provide a 100% money back guarantee on my TZAR tips ( not plugging as I don't sell them only my dealers do so please nobody contact me for one, lol)

I've heard stories of the "old" layered tips were good, the new ones are junk, blah, blah, blah. So, when we finally found the right guy to make them, we included the money back guarantee so folks would know they are worth it, we will give you your money back and it's still half the price of the big name brand "competition". End of shameless plug

Use what you like, everyone is different. If not, we'd all be shooting with house cues, with LePro tips and Walmart chalk. What fun is that lol

 

[ShootingArts]

When i had the audacity to even question his tips he went BALLISTIC. The guy is complete tool. As for leather, best for tips would be the shoulder area. Worst would be the stomach. I've seen more than a few Tweeten tips that had to have come from belly leather. Heard they've improved. We'll see, got new Tri's on my Jensen.

There is a lot of leather on a hide that isn't ideal for tips as we both know. Do they discard that leather? Sell it to other people for other purposes? Send it to us? Interestingly Elkmaster now offers selected tips at a slight premium. At the rate I am going I have a lifetime supply anyway.

Hu