Learn to win?

[WoodyJ]

I agree, if you "like" your opponent you will find a way to lose.

Yep.

Fortunately for me, my pool sparring partner (who is also a good friend) get's upset with me if I don't always play my hardest against him whenever we play. Makes for good practice sessions.

As for competition. If someone shakes hands with me just before a tournament or league game and says something like, "Please, take it easy on me and don't beat me too bad." I smile and think to myself, "Red alert. This person will stick a fork in you the first chance they get. No mercy. Be nice AFTER the game is over."

 

[ShootingArts]

mindset

When I go to a competition I start weeding out the field. The people complaining about the conditions, they are going to beat themselves almost certainly, forget about them. Then there is the group most people fall into, admit it or not. They look around to see who is there that is "better than them". "I can't beat him, him, him, or him, so I am playing for fifth and below. I can pretty much forget those guys too because even if I am not on their list of people they can't beat, they are inhibiting their performance with the idea they don't deserve to win. It doesn't matter how they word it or even if they only think it, when they count off the people there better than they are they have decided that they don't deserve to place higher than any of these people.

You have to learn or simply decide that you deserve to win. That is a huge step because you lose the chains that you have been placing on yourself the whole time you have been inching up the ladder. When you decide that you can win on any given night and beat anyone in the place at least during that one event then you will perform better. We are far more likely to perform worse than we expect to than we are to perform better than we expect to.

Take the chains of low expectations off, play in the moment, and see where you are at when the dust settles. Every winner is a winner in their own mind before they are a winner on the table.

Hu

Is this a crazy question? Did you have to learn to win?

Was there something specific that allowed you to get out of your own way?

Did you progress from a 'dead money' mind set to being competitive to being a threat to win every time you played? I'm not talking about gambling-but rather tournament or league play.

When and how did it become OK to win. Why wasn't it OK to win? Did you reevaluate the 'gotta go" mentality of low percentage shots and adopt instead a 'how to win from here' approach?, possibly including two-way shots that yield a safety if you miss but shape if you make it.

Did some big bright light bulb come on for you?

Thanks

3railkick

my bulb is dim

 

[Wolven]

Pooltchr said it best : When you stop thinking about winning, and start thinking about playing, you will be well on your way

Here are a few more observations IMHO.

There seems to be a pattern. When you are an improving player defeating certain players can be consider a stepping stone.
First you will get killed, then you will make it closer, one day you will get some breaks and win a match,
it will go back and forth for a while and one day you will no longer need the breaks to go your way you will start beating that player consistently.

It seems like learning to win but it is really learning to play at a higher level.

Personally I play better against better players. The reason is I like to play and don’t want to sit and watch. Motivation is important.

Also my game jumps a level or two while playing for money.
I don’t matchup because I want to win the money but because it is a challenge, but you can take it to the bank I hate giving away my cash.
My motivation to win is established – it is a test of skill it is a stepping stone.
Due to importance I suddenly do everything the way it has to be done in order to be successful.
My concentration on the game increases and I become comer and more focused and thus live in the moment.
While at the table I don’t think about winning or loosing those thoughts surface once in a while if racking.

Thinking about outcome is counter productive and leads to paralyzes.
The execution and the patterns and the dance of whitey, the nice shots and safeties that’s all there is.
You have to be process oriented the outcome is the result of what you put in before that, win or lose.

Kim Davenport once said something along the lines: “….loosing is easy, anyone can come to the table and give a half ass effort, ohh I tried,…
….but winning, well, that’s special and the hardest thing to do……”

 

[Neil]

....................

 

[paksat]

When I go to a competition I start weeding out the field. The people complaining about the conditions, they are going to beat themselves almost certainly, forget about them. Then there is the group most people fall into, admit it or not. They look around to see who is there that is "better than them". "I can't beat him, him, him, or him, so I am playing for fifth and below. I can pretty much forget those guys too because even if I am not on their list of people they can't beat, they are inhibiting their performance with the idea they don't deserve to win. It doesn't matter how they word it or even if they only think it, when they count off the people there better than they are they have decided that they don't deserve to place higher than any of these people.

You have to learn or simply decide that you deserve to win. That is a huge step because you lose the chains that you have been placing on yourself the whole time you have been inching up the ladder. When you decide that you can win on any given night and beat anyone in the place at least during that one event then you will perform better. We are far more likely to perform worse than we expect to than we are to perform better than we expect to.

Take the chains of low expectations off, play in the moment, and see where you are at when the dust settles. Every winner is a winner in their own mind before they are a winner on the table.

Hu

Post needs to be put on a poster and hung up in every pool room in america.

 

[ShootingArts]

a little secret

Post needs to be put on a poster and hung up in every pool room in america.

I'd hate to see it or this posted everywhere. The truth is that we usually only have to beat 15%-30% of the field in an event. For one reason or the other the rest of the field isn't there with the mindset to win. I pare fields down to a manageable size by focusing on those that are there to win. They are my competition. They rest of the field will find a way to beat themselves if somebody else doesn't beat them.

Hu

 

[JimS]

I'm subscribing to this thread.

 

[pooltchr]

something nobody has mentioned...in a field of 32 players, you only play 5 other players if you stay on the winner's side, so many of those players you are worrying about before the tournament starts will never even end up on the other side of your table.

Steve

 

[GMAC]

I must have given away a million matches in my life and I always found an excuse. So, I started reading all these books about the mental game and I was still giving away matches. Then it finally hit me. Improve your fundamentals so much that they become dog proof. It is still a work in progress but I have won more tough matches against strong players the last two years than every before in my life. The reason is I am confident I can execute under pressure because I have improved my fundamentals so much.

Being able to repeat your stroke time and time under pressure will take care of the winning all on it's own. If I could give any advice it would be to make sure you are rock solid at the table and all of sudden all those guys that never miss when they play you start missing because they know you are going to let them have it. GL

 

[pooltchr]

Great point. You can have all the heart in the world, and want it more than anything, but if you can't deliver the cue consistently, you've got a problem.

Steve

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

schools of thought

I'd hate to see it or this posted everywhere. The truth is that we usually only have to beat 15%-30% of the field in an event. For one reason or the other the rest of the field isn't there with the mindset to win. I pare fields down to a manageable size by focusing on those that are there to win. They are my competition. They rest of the field will find a way to beat themselves if somebody else doesn't beat them.

Hu

Lots of great points in this thread. I'd like to ask @ a point Hu makes. You state you look at the field and weed out (perceived) weak players. Then you are left with the ones you see as competition.

How do you use this process to your advantage?

Other schools of thought are "I don't care who's here, I can't control that or the draw. I play the table."

 

[djpstacked03]

I think being more confident in my own abilities helped me progress significantly. Your only playing the balls on the table.

 

[Spimp13]

I never understood why people look at the draw so much. Like Steve said you only play about 5 people anyway. Looking ahead to a possible 3rd or 4th round match is a common mistake I see people talk about when just hanging out waiting to play a match. You should be preparing yourself mentally for your match regardless of who you play. Then when you get called and see your opponent it is go time. As Stallone said in Over the Top "It's like a switch". Go in with the mindset that you are expected to win but do not dwell on it. Unless a guy is running racks on you, you probably control if you win or lose so focus on executing your shots and stop worrying about what your opponent is doing or how they are playing. PLAY THE TABLE! When it comes time for a safety THEN maybe think about if your opponent is good/bad at kicking or banking, otherwise only the table exists in front of you!

 

[EZMoney]

If you play pool to win you're playing for the wrong reason. You are asorbed with all the distractions that come with play. While they need to be addressed and put in their place your main task is to play the game as you find it. You need to learn "the art of painting on green canvas". I make reference to The Pleasures of Small Motions, IMO the best book I've read for the mental aspects of the game, which are many.

This is a good read and I know it will help your game and anybody's game that reads it.

 

[ShootingArts]

applies to all competition

Lots of great points in this thread. I'd like to ask @ a point Hu makes. You state you look at the field and weed out (perceived) weak players. Then you are left with the ones you see as competition.

How do you use this process to your advantage?

Other schools of thought are "I don't care who's here, I can't control that or the draw. I play the table."

You have to understand that the bulk of these players are perceived by themselves as weak and their perception is what matters. Others are giving evidence right there at the event that they are weak competitors and these I do pass judgment on. No apologies for that, it is part of being a good competitor.

This applies to all competition, not just pool. In pool tournaments we do know that some portion of the remaining players will be knocked out by each other so we don't have to beat them all. However let's look at a 64 player field just to have a number.

If all players are equal we have one chance in 64 of winning, rotten odds at best. However, I know that there are a dozen players there that don't like the tables or the format. A few may take heart after winning a few rounds but basically they are also rans. Another 36 see a couple of top players or very good regional shortstops in the place and are grumbling about them being there. These 36 have already set limits on their performance and aren't playing for first place unless the players they fear are knocked out before they are. Another half-dozen players are belly-aching mightily when the tournament runs into the wee hours of the morning. Odds are that they are looking for an excuse to lose too.

I have pared the field down to about 10 players plus a few more that may take heart as they go deeper into the tournament, maybe a dozen. Out of that dozen, a few will knock each other out and I am left with maybe four or five of them to face on my way to the finals. It is true that I am facing four or five tough players but I like a field of four or five a whole lot better than a field of sixty-three players I have to beat.

I drift around the room surveying the mindset of the players but I never hang around negative players. Good to know that they are shooting themselves in the foot but their mindset can affect yours and you often shoot yourself in the foot too if you hang around them.

This is an even more effective method in open fields where you are playing the entire field. Out of 120 shooters at a major invitational rifle competition I found the vast majority upset about the wind and rain we were shooting in. Much like the tables and format in the pool hall, the conditions are the same for everybody, tough conditions bring out the dog in some and are an advantage to those that don't get shook by them. A bunch more shooters were talking about two or three shooters there being red hot and nobody was going to beat them. More kindling for the fire. When all was said and done I found I was shooting against about twenty shooters, maybe less.

Big fields are much less intimidating when you realize that most of the people there are just cannon fodder and fairly easy obstacles to negotiate. There are always a few you have to beat but most of the field can be largely ignored. Play your game and they will roll over if you meet them. There will be one or two surprises in the ones you decided to ignore but with experience you factor that in too. If you are truly trying to win you are only competing with the other people who believe down in their gut that they can win too.

Hu

 

[pilsman]

Hi,
haven't read the entire thread.
Has someone already suggested reading

"The Pleasures of Small Motions"?

Imho the best book ever on pool psychology, offers no easy fixes or mantras.
If you are not a super player already it will take you very long to implement all the advice given in this short book into your (mental ) game.
Defitely worth it!

 

[ShootingArts]

It is two books

Hi,
haven't read the entire thread.
Has someone already suggested reading

"The Pleasures of Small Motions"?

Imho the best book ever on pool psychology, offers no easy fixes or mantras.
If you are not a super player already it will take you very long to implement all the advice given in this short book into your (mental ) game.
Defitely worth it!

The current edition of Pleasure of Small Motions is basically two books with the heavy rewrite. The first part seems good, the second part seems to focus on not being upset about losing. All that that teaches you is how to be a good loser! Not what I want to know. I want to be a lousy loser even if I don't show it on the surface.

Hu

 

[horton129]

Learn to win

Great tread BTW. you will get a lot of good info in all the answers posted so far. For me i'm just getting in the stages where i am learning to win I'm 7 years in and it's turning arround. I still get confidence laps and mentaly degrade sometimes, but i have a day job and can't compete all that often. However i do make the finals now and that is a big change from the 2 wins 2 loses I would most often get as results (sorry if i ramble) What i have changed the most.

1 - I try hard has hell not to quit on any hit. (not sure if you will understand what i mean, sometimes there's a super dificult layout or position route and i might of just tried not to miss the ball/shot in the past, now I go all in all the time). I also had to slow down a bit to think better, i often lost in the past for stupid mistakes not because i lacked the talent.
2- I don't think about winning or the race or the oponent, one ball at a time, has been the hardest thing for me to do/learn. If I fail now it's mostly because of this. when i can play in the one ball at a time mind set i find i do concentrate and relax much better and this brings more success.

3- put yourself under the heat as often as possible, gamble for what is acceptable for you is a good way to learn how to play hard. it has to sting a little if you lose or nothing to gain from this.

good luck.

 

[Majic]

When you stop thinking about winning, and start thinking about playing, you will be well on your way.

Thinking about winning is one of the best ways I know of to lose.

Steve

I second the this one :thumbup:

 

[Fatboy]

You have to learn or simply decide that you deserve to win. That is a huge step because you lose the chains that you have been placing on yourself the whole time you have been inching up the ladder. When you decide that you can win on any given night and beat anyone in the place at least during that one event then you will perform better. We are far more likely to perform worse than we expect to than we are to perform better than we expect to.

Take the chains of low expectations off, play in the moment, and see where you are at when the dust settles. Every winner is a winner in their own mind before they are a winner on the table.

Hu

Thats great advice, now implementing it is a whole lot of work.

I have winning issues, its embarassing-but true. When I dont have those issues, I play 2or 3 speeds better than normal, and win by big margines, in other words the other guy dosent get a shot(unless i'm playing a champion and I dont get a shot) in 8 ball, when i dont have winning issues(problem) any B+ or even stronger, cant win a game-I dominate. this dosent happen often, but I do have a real high gear. When I'm in this zone my concentration is bullet proof. In 8 Ball I beat a guy the other night who is a solid player 9-3, and 2 of his wins were lucky and he ran out from a dry break i made. I missed 3 balls in the session on 4" Ernesto pockets on a 9'Gold Crown, we played the old rules 8 ball, no BIH. I never dominated a session like that, he was hooked everything he got to the table but maybe 5 or 6 times. It didnt matter who I was playing I would have won like that-like I said I never played like that before, but I have played near that speed a few times-it just comes and goes. I havent been playing much either.


. When I do have winning issues(that means i'm loseing), I miss 2-3 times in a 8 ball game or 1-2 in 9 ball. I'm soft as can be, and can miss anything at anytime. and my concentration is all over the place, i'm a scatter brain and make mistakes of all kinds. i cant stay focused. I have played long enough that I dont need to think about things like (dont move my head, stay down, line up, look at the pocket etc). I have ADHD or something.


usually what happens is I start strong, focused and get out in front in a race(I never think of the score or let myself get comfortable with a lead), I just get out in front if (i'm the better player) and play strong then....I get board, distracted-what ever and then my game falls way down. And I usually cant pick it up again, so I might win a couple sets or more but at some point the level of my play drops off. This I must fix.

I dont play in tournments, I'm talking about action. The amount of $$$ dosent matter(I'm past that stage)-I never played for $100,000, if I did I'm sure the first hour I'd be a bit tight, maybe. $$$ never made me nervious-it dosent in biz, perhaps thats why biz has been easy for me. So we can take that condition out of the equation. I have tried raising the bet when I start to feel distracted thinking that might get me back into the game, that does work sometimes. But thats not a solution,

If I play a weaker player I put in the same effort as I do playing JA or anyone in between, I dont adjust my game to the player i'm playing. I did play alot on the lemon years ago when I needed the $$$, and could get off the lemon when I needed to-that did take some time to get good at, its a b!tch when you have way the best of it and get stuck on the lemon. I hated that feeling.


But yeah I have issues when it comes to winning, and all the practice in the world isnt going to fix them, I have lost to guys who cant beat me, yet they do beat me. And I'm a much stronger player, not winner.


Our friend here who passed away Rudedog (Johnny Morton) and I ran around Vegas for a few months, he was clearly a better player than me in every which way, he used to tell me "You have to find a way to win" or if he was behind in a race-he would walk up to me and say "I have to find a way to win". And you know what he did!, not by sharking the other guy. He would just win. He was a winner, I asked him what he meant, he tried to explain it to me. I didnt get it. And i'm a loser. Over the years I'm for sure over 50% winners in all my matches and positive I'm ahead the $$$, but I have let alot of fish off the line, when I had superior fundementals etc.


There is a difference between playing perfect and winning.


I thought about about going to a sports shrink, I read the Tennis Book, etc. but that wasnt enough. What Rudedog told me "Find a way to win" I need to find that.


thanks hu,

eric