Learn to win?

[ShootingArts]

not much work

If you compete regularly you know most of the people there. Even without that a few passes through the area gives a pretty good handle. I know you can read a roomful of people at a business meeting or seminar, it's really little different except I am looking for different signals.

I compete against the other person to the degree I want to know their strengths and weaknesses. On a big table I play a left hander differently than a right hander. Anything that a person shows themselves uncomfortable with or unable to execute, they are going to see a lot of. However, after that it doesn't matter if I am playing Johnny Archer or li'l Johnny, I'm going to lay my game down and let them try to beat it. The first person to falter usually loses.

No doubt other good books out there and I have only read a fraction of them. The person that seemed to have a great handle on the whole mind/body thing and able to talk about it in simple language was J Michael Plaxco in his book on pistol competition, Shooting From Within. There is a large section on the mental game but there are tidbits all through the book so it is a worthwhile read. He is a many times champion and really spends a lot of time thinking about how and why things work. I'm planning to mark up my copy with yellow stickies and send it to a guy I am mentoring in competition a bit. Then I'm buying myself two more copies. At twenty a copy, money well spent.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9836/Product/SHOOTING_FROM_WITHIN

Hu

Thats great advice, now implementing it is a whole lot of work.

I have winning issues, its embarassing-but true. When I dont have those issues, I play 2 speeds better than normal and win by big margines, in other words the other guy dosent get a shot. When I do have those issues I miss 2-3 times in a 8 ball game or 1-2 in 9 ball. I'm soft as can be and miss anything at anytime.


I thought about about going to a sports shrink, I read the Tennis Book, etc.


thanks hu,

eric

 

[pooltchr]

with all due respect to a certified teacher, i have to disagree. if you're not thinking about winning, you're thinking about losing.

Not true at all. Who says you have to be thinking about one or the other. The point is that you shouldn't be thinking about the eventual outcome at all. Your focus needs to be on the job at hand. That job is to make the shot in front of you, and try to get position for the next shot. Winning is the RESULT of playing well. So, in order to win, you must think about playing well. This means making the shot in front of you.

Steve

 

[Blackjack]

I think Jack Nicklaus said it best - "Learning how to win isn't half as difficult as learning how not to lose."

I cover this topic as well as many others to include - Self Induced Pressure, Self Sabotage, Mental Training Techniques - in my Mental Game Mastery Videos.

Mental Game Mastery

Go ahead, drink the poison. You can't beat the price, its free.

:killingme:

 

[jrt30004]

Hi,
haven't read the entire thread.
Has someone already suggested reading

"The Pleasures of Small Motions"?

Imho the best book ever on pool psychology, offers no easy fixes or mantras.
If you are not a super player already it will take you very long to implement all the advice given in this short book into your (mental ) game.
Defitely worth it!

i have to disagree. there is only one mantra that book puts out. take pleasure in the little things, just making a good stroke, just pocketing the ball. to me this is all part of the sissy mentality this generation is learning from soft parents focused on political correctness. the book says you shouldn't be concerned with winning and not worry about losing. cool, you don't worry about that and i won't worry about how hard i laugh. if all you focus on is the pleasure of making a shot all you'll ever be is the big john character from the hustler (the book) where it's said all he does is hit the same long bankshot over and over. if you're happy with those little things great. i am happy with cash and or trophy in hand. second place truly is the first loser, ask the team who lost the world series or super bowl last year. ask tiger how he felt about blowing a four day lead to unknown player to loose the pga. i'll bet there was no pleasure in any small motion. i take plaesure in the big motion grinning like madman when i can win.

 

[doitforthegame]

I was talking to Mike Zuglan a few years back at one of the tournaments I held in my room. He was in his late 40's at the time and winning almost every Joss event he entered. I asked him, "Mike, how come you always seem to win these things?" He looked at me quizzically and said "What do you mean? I know I'm going to win. Always. I can't even visualize losing."

I thought about that for awhile. An when I really truly believe I am not going to lose, I win. Sadly for me I can't do it every time I play. But having that mindset is kind of like being "in the zone". You just can't make yourself be there if your brain won't cooperate. Winning becomes you. It becomes part of you. You then win. It's not a thought "I will win this match". I don't know. I can't explain it very well. I don't think I was a hippie long enough. It's sooooo deeeeppppp mmmannnn!

 

[pooltchr]

ask the team who lost the world series or super bowl last year. ask tiger how he felt about blowing a four day lead to unknown player to loose the pga.

And I'll bet that the players on the teams that won were thinking about executing the tackle on the guy in front of him, or on the pitch that was coming toward the plate, and not thinking about winning or losing.

Do you really think when Tiger lines up a putt that he is thinking about anything other that what he needs to do to put the ball in the cup? He isn't thinking about where he is on the leaderboard. He is thinking about the shot he needs to make RIGHT NOW.

Steve

 

[morthnrdy]

well said

To me, winning is a byproduct of execution. When you play well, winning will happen. But, also your opponent can play well and winning will come to them.

When you can turn your practice routines into executions, your game will improve. When your game improves your winning percentage will increase. When your winning percentage increases, your confidence level will increase, when your confidence level increases... no matter who you play or what Mantra they have, it is very difficult to beat 'near flawless execution'

Trust what you know, always go through your pre-shot routine and always accept the results.

Winning comes to those that prepare. Preparing to win is done with hard work and practice. What have you done to make sure you are going to shoot better next time you go to the table to complete?

we have our practice game, our league game, our tourney game, our gambling game....when we can bring them all into one solid consistant game then we are winners unless you got beat by a better opponent and then take everything that you can away from that match and analyze it, AFTER. when your in "dead stroke" your not thinking is my stance correct or am i holding the cue too tight or am i dropping my elbow, etc... because your in a sort of zone that begins with your pre-shot routine which allows for all the mechanics to fall in place...provided you have done the work to have your routine and go through it without ever having to think about it. as well as worked your practice workouts so your mechanics are like second nature, and your cue is an extension of your arm. you simply take advantage of everytime your at the table, before you no it your opponent will be questioning there stroke, etc...winning is a behavior and a result of a good foundation and a urge to win...never any doubts, play everyone like your playing efren or SVB. NOW THERE WILL BE TIMES WHEN YOU ARE OUTMATCHED BY SKILL AND THEN TRY TO BEAT THEM WITH YOUR HEAD, LOCK EM DOWN TIGHT, THEN DO IT AGAIN IF NEED BE UNTIL U CAN GET OUT. :thumbup: my opinion, all the best

james

 

[morthnrdy]

mosconi hated it all

make no mistake, i never mentioned anger, or hate. yes i use the annalogy to step on someone'e throat, to shut them down, don't let them breathe, don't let them up. but i don't hate my opponent. i have earned the nickname evil amoung my friends and team mates because before i play i match i can have everyone in a thirty foot radius belly laughing but once it's time to play everything changes. i don't want to talk to you, i could care less about your kids or your family, my girlfriend isn't someone i readily recognize in the crowd. and the thing people notice the most, the look on my face changes. at 5'10" 320 lbs. covered with tattoos and piercings i am not the friendliest looking person to begin with, but let a match start and i have very few people wanting to ask if they can borrow the chalk from my table. everything i mentioned was about being confident, knowing you can beat someone before you break the balls. and if you can't (ie a money game) don't play. again from the art of war and simmilar to what vette said in his post about booking winners based on match up. and let me say i am not young at 38, i know i am not 50 or 60 but almost 40 isn't a kid, and i still think like this. i was taught from a young age losing isn't good. i hate this soft assed society we are cultivating. everyone makes the team, everyone gets a trophy for trying. f*ck that s*it. you don't get rewarded for mediocrity in life when you're older it should not happen when you are younger. we are raising a generation of sissy assed losers who are going to look around when they are in a tough spot and not know what to do. you bet your ass if i'm in competition i'm there to win. and if i don't i am not happy. and if people think this sounds silly i give a s*it less. ask a pro at anything what they think of thier competition. you think in the middle ot the supperbowl tom brady thought eli manning was a swell guy. i'll bet more than a few bucks no. he thought someone on the d needs to break the f*ck in two. before and after the game it's probobly different, but in the heat of things i'm pretty sure that's about right.

i agree with you, i hate my opponent and if i dont...if i end up playing someone that im buddies with and i lose that mentality i will lose because it becomes a casual game in my head and they know it cause they know me. Mosconi hated everything when he played, his opponent, other players, the balls, table, pocket, chalk, etc... thats how he was. now im a good guy, but i play, in fact i played my best pool ever after almost getting into a brawl because i had my opponent cheat on a foul and his buddy backed him up so i was handcuffed, UNTIL THE NEXT RACK AND HE BROKE DRY AND I RAN THE SET OUT AND CONTINUED TO TAUNT HIM ASKING HIM TO GAMBLE, ANYTHING AND HE WANTED NO PART OF IT, AND HE WAS A BETTER PLAYER THAN I WAS AT THE TIME. but he cheated and his buddy was sharkn me and thats how i handle that, for me being pis@$d off in that situation is the worst thing for my opponent. i usually am not like that, maybe i should be but you cant just create that anger. i wanna be clear and say that im a good guy, please dont take this wrong like im being all cocky and stuff but i thought you raised a good point. i wish i could always play at that level of aggression, for lack of a better word. maybe it takes all things out of my head except winning, no doubts...in my mind im gonna win?????:angry::angry::angry:just kidding

 

[jrt30004]

And I'll bet that the players on the teams that won were thinking about executing the tackle on the guy in front of him, or on the pitch that was coming toward the plate, and not thinking about winning or losing.

Do you really think when Tiger lines up a putt that he is thinking about anything other that what he needs to do to put the ball in the cup? He isn't thinking about where he is on the leaderboard. He is thinking about the shot he needs to make RIGHT NOW.

Steve

o.k. true i'll grant you the shor in front of you is the most important but it's not the thought that should consume you. especially not in pool. it's that shot, the position you'll get after for the next ball and then where do you go. and if you play correctly you're thinking ahead in the rack as to how to break up clusters, what you're problem balls are, what your key ball is, in other words you're thinking about how to win the game. if all you do is look at the shot you're taking you are well on your way to tunnel vision. and tunnel vision is well on your way to a loss. and yes the steeler's d was thinking about the tackle in front of them. they also, i'm sure were considering down and distance, time on the clock, if arizona gets three they come within a touchdown. and i'm sure tiger is focusing on his drive or chip that he's taking but i bet he is also worried about if he hits the 7 iron short how far from the pin will be? will he reach the green or be left with a tough chip. and i'll bet he thought alot about that leader board when it all started to slip away.

 

[jrt30004]

Which generation, specifically are you insulting here?

well, let's see. the phasing out of p.e in schools started in what, the last five years? they started giving "participation" trophies around the same time maybe? and i know my mother's friend has a child who was on a high school football team in south florida maybe five or six years ago where there were no try outs. everyone made the team. so i am going to say for sure the children of the last half decade. but really i believe the softening of our society started with the turn to "P.C". politcally correct is another way of saying i don't want to say or do anything that may offend anyone anywhere. i was raised to be polite and unless i am trying, i rarely offend someone. however these days any word can be labled offensive and someone cry if it is said in front of them. so i guess my answer would be i am not so much insulting this latest geration as i am thier parents, politicians, and teachers. which would be everyone right around my age - yep, my generation. i thank god i was raised by parents and grand parents and aunts and uncles who led lives that were marked by wars and hardships, and knew what is was like to be sucsessful, and not, have money and not, be persecuted and not. to the best of my recolection no one ever got an award for being there, you had to earn things.

 

[Fenwick]

Just stop giving a sh*t in short...

It's pool, it's not like you bet your familys life on the game.

When a person learns to shoot for fun and nothing but fun, the game becomes much easier and enjoyable.

Seems stupid simple, but i'd say 8 out of 10 serious pool players don't even have this thought enter their mind during competition. They are so focused on the job at hand that that is exactly what it becomes.... a job.

That's what I've been told except that I should never not care or be happy if I lose.

 

[digitalcrack]

That's what I've been told except that I should never not care or be happy if I lose.

It's not really "not caring". It's more like being emotionally detached to the concept of winning and losing. There is always going to be a winner or loser in a game of pool. Maybe I'm just saying it in a different way but I feel there is a slight distinction between both.

To get good and win consistent at anything there has to be three things. Mental, Physical, and Information are those three things. We will use pool as an example. The physical aspect of pool deals with the stroke. Without a repeatable stroke, there will not be any consistency of winning. For some shots a shorter bridge might be ideal; for other shots a firmer grip might be ideal. This deals with the physical side of pool. Basically, the fundamentals have to be there. Information is the know-how. It is simply key knowledge about the game. Without this, pool cannot be played at a high level. Information may deal with tangent line, half ball hit rules, 30 degree rules, coming towards the ball for some shots, and other things that will make the game more "correctly" played. The Mental Side deals with winning itself. Without some of these mental rules(varies for everyone but some are very consistent in repeat winners)winning would be hard. Some mental side stuff could include staying in the moment, taking a neutral approach to result of the shot(inner game of tennis), Making sure you make the shot whether it is a safety, bank, kick, 90 degree cut shot or anything, Drinking water to help the nerves, Breathing Techniques, Visualization with all of your senses and other things. With a lot of knowledge of these three categories give you the best chance for consistent winning. Everyone dogs it, but consistent winners dog it less. They find ways to win at different times. Mental, Physical, and Information are all different for everyone. I'm sure Tiger Woods has his tricks to stay in focus. I'm sure Alex Pagulayan has different tricks to stay in focus. Eventually those three areas get incorporated into our subconscious and when we are in the right mindset we can allow ourselves to get to dead punch.

I've been taught by one of the best at Hawaiian Brians. I've probably played the late Wolfman (RIP) over 60 sets race to 9 9 ball matches. I've won only once. We would always play even. I would always get owned. The first time I ever got to the hill I learned my first lesson about winning a big match. The concepts were make sure, stay in the moment, and drink water to calm nerves. The score was 8-6 in a race till 9. Basically I was running out the rack on the 5 and I told myself holy crap if I make this five in the side I'm out. I rushed the shot because of pure nerves and missed it. He proceeded to clear the rack , break run out, and break in the 9. So after this every tournament I have won I have drank water on the later stages of the tournament, and had a make sure mentality. I won't let myself dog it if I can help it. The only set I ever beat the Wolf I was up 8-4. I told myself every game. The score is 0-0. I learned a concept of staying in the moment so he doesn't have a chance to break run out, break in the 9.

 

[pooltchr]

o.k. true i'll grant you the shor in front of you is the most important but it's not the thought that should consume you. especially not in pool. it's that shot, the position you'll get after for the next ball and then where do you go. and if you play correctly you're thinking ahead in the rack as to how to break up clusters, what you're problem balls are, what your key ball is,All of these things are a part of the shot. They are all tasks that are required on EVERY shot. If you do these things well, and repeatedly, the result should be winning. My point is, don't think about winning, think about doing the things that will result in winning. If thoughts of collecting the 1st place prize money enter your head, they will distract you from thinking about what is important. in other words you're thinking about how to win the game. if all you do is look at the shot you're taking you are well on your way to tunnel vision. and tunnel vision is well on your way to a loss.Agreed. There is more to be considered than just making the shot. There are other aspects that are just as important. and yes the steeler's d was thinking about the tackle in front of them. they also, i'm sure were considering down and distance, time on the clock, if arizona gets three they come within a touchdown. Yes, that' s what the coaches are thinking. The players are thinking about the next play. Watch the players on the sideline during the game. They are not celebrating half way through the 4th quarter, even if they have a big lead. They are intent on what is happening on the field. Maybe, just maybe, with a minute or so left, they will relax and start to celebrate, but not when there is still action on the fieldand i'm sure tiger is focusing on his drive or chip that he's taking but i bet he is also worried about if he hits the 7 iron short how far from the pin will be? will he reach the green or be left with a tough chip. and i'll bet he thought alot about that leader board when it all started to slip away.You may be right, and that might be part of the reason he lost. If he was already beating himslef up over allowing the lead to slip away, he couldn't possibly be giving 100% to the shots he still had to make.

The point is simply this. You can put all of your attention on making things happen on the table, or you can divide your attention between thoughts of making the shot, and thoughts of winning. Any thoughts of the second, mean you aren't giving 100% to the first.
Steve

 

[jrt30004]

The point is simply this. You can put all of your attention on making things happen on the table, or you can divide your attention between thoughts of making the shot, and thoughts of winning. Any thoughts of the second, mean you aren't giving 100% to the first.
Steve

steve i think the area we are not coming together on is, i feel that all of that preparation you are talking about, i feel, should be devoted to the overall goal of winning. i truly believe that should be a part of of your thought process. if i can go back to the book the pleasure of small motions, no i am not happy simply playing well. if i leave a league match or a tournament or a money game and i have played well but lost, i am not happy. my over all goal is to win, not to play well. not to execute to the best of my ability. i get no joy from that, and i don't think there should be any joy in that. i think you should be somewhat happy if you did some things well that maybe you hadn't before, but overall i think you should look at that loss and focus on the things you didn't do well and realize you need to work on those. and to this end you can type and highlight in red, metallic blue, neon green or any other color you wish. you will not change my mind. sorry but this is how i was raised - if you're going to do something do it right (goes to your point), and if you're going to compete, play to win (my point). i was taught runner up really means the first loser and i'm sorry but that's true.

 

[pooltchr]

i feel that all of that preparation you are talking about, i feel, should be devoted to the overall goal of winning.

I totally agree. I just break it down to it's simplisst form. I believe you learn what it takes to win, and focus on doing those things. What does it take to win? It takes good decision making, good shot making, good position play, etc. If you don't do those things, you can not expect to win. So my focus remains on doing the things it takes to win, not in winning itself. Because I know if I do those little things well, I will get my share of wins.

I am not saying winning isn't important. Any of us who are competitive in nature want to win. Just that I believe that you must focus on what it takes to win, and not on winning itself. The time to think about winning is after you win. Enjoy that feeling, think about all the things you did to get there, and then get ready to do the same things the next time.

When we were in school, most of us had the same goal...GRADUATE! Those of us who did, managed to do it by working to pass each test in Algebra, Biology, English, etc. You must focus on the tasks required to meet your goal, particularly when you are performing those tasks.

I also think we have different mindsets. Winning isn't the only goal for me. I take no pride in winning a match, if I played poorly. That just means my opponent played ever worse than I did. (Big deal, I beat a guy who was shooting like crap!) And if I play a great match, but lose, it may be disappointing, but I can take pride that I did perform well. My opponent was better than me that day. So I now have a goal of working harder, so the next time, the result will be different.

Steve