Lee Brett Video

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I happened across a video on youtube, I'm sure all you guys have seen it a million times, but never the less, in seeing it I had a question.

At about 7:30 into the video he talks about what happens if you don't stroke completely through the shot. It comes up short. This is absolutely true, something that I've been aware of forever, but ... the question .... And I'd love to hear from Dr. Dave and / or Bob Jewett on this .... Why?

Why does the shot come up short? If the CB is on the correct line ... why does that happen. I know it does, and it is something of wonder as to why. I can only assume the CB doesn't follow the correct line. Even so .. it still begs the question, specifically, why?

It is an interesting phenomena. In fact I'll add that if you are using a bit of outside english, going too far through the shot seems to result in over cutting it sometimes.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCl3gtp2FUY
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've had that happen, coming up short, but I think only on much slower speed shots. I suspect the reason is they throw more, with collision induced throw. So, if you don't stroke all the way through the ball, the stroke is probably slower than you intended, and the balls throw more as a result. That's my hypothesis.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've had that happen, coming up short, but I think only on much slower speed shots. I suspect the reason is they throw more, with collision induced throw. So, if you don't stroke all the way through the ball, the stroke is probably slower than you intended, and the balls throw more as a result. That's my hypothesis.

I have heard on more than one occasion that the follow thru has no effect on the cueball and that the cueball comes off the tip the second it's struck ,, I have never been fully convinced of that ,, would love to hear Dr Dave on this ,, I do know Lee has worked with several top players I believe Shane being one of them , i love his style

1
 

3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I've had that happen, coming up short, but I think only on much slower speed shots. I suspect the reason is they throw more, with collision induced throw. So, if you don't stroke all the way through the ball, the stroke is probably slower than you intended, and the balls throw more as a result. That's my hypothesis.

I've considered that as a possibility also, but quickly discounted it because you can very firmly hit the shot and still pull up on your follow through, and the ball still reacts like Lee said.

Conversely, you can stroke the shot with a smooth accelerated follow through, hit it like shit ... and it still goes in. LOL

It does seem crazy, but it's so true. Yeah, Dr. Dave .... LOL, what's up with the reason behind this?
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've considered that as a possibility also, but quickly discounted it because you can very firmly hit the shot and still pull up on your follow through, and the ball still reacts like Lee said.

Conversely, you can stroke the shot with a smooth accelerated follow through, hit it like shit ... and it still goes in. LOL

It does seem crazy, but it's so true. Yeah, Dr. Dave .... LOL, what's up with the reason behind this?

Well, if its not a slower speed caused by an incomplete stroke, then I'd venture to guess, that it is a cuing inaccuracy caused by "checking up" on the stroke.

All this should be prefaced with: Is this truly an observable and repeatable affect? The idea that a shot misses short by varying the follow through. That point in itself is not actually proven. Just because Lee says it, and you and I may have experienced it, does not make it so:)
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have heard on more than one occasion that the follow thru has no effect on the cueball and that the cueball comes off the tip the second it's struck ,, I have never been fully convinced of that ,, would love to hear Dr Dave on this ,, I do know Lee has worked with several top players I believe Shane being one of them , i love his style

1

That is correct.

This thread will inevitably go the route of elbow drop vs. fixed elbow. Keep in mind that you can still follow through with a fixed elbow. Sure you would get a few more inches by dropping the elbow. Luckily for us, the cue ball is nothing like my ex-wife, and won't notice the difference.

My predictions for this thread

- It's 10:48pm EST. We'll be over 20 pages in 24 hours.
- CJ will make a guest appearance
- Someone will get banned
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Anybody notice where he holds his cue?
Right at the very bottom.
Kinda hard to stoke slip that way.

That's a soft stroke slip shot to me.
Just let the cue slide and let it do it's thing.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
iusedtoberich has already more or less given the answer broken up into a couple of different posts. Unfortunately I can't give him another greenie yet for the great contribution.

For any given set of equipment and equipment conditions, the only things that have any noticeable affect on how the cue ball reacts when struck by the cue are:
1. Where the cue ball is struck
2. How hard the cue ball is struck
3. The angle at which the cue ball is struck (the elevation of the cue)

Nothing else matters or has any effect, including how well you followed through, whether you were accelerating or decelerating at impact, whether your grip was loose or tight, etc.

But here is where those things can and do cause problems, and I will specifically address the not following through as that is what was discussed in the video and what is being asked about. If you aren't properly following through, you often or perhaps even usually started the deceleration/termination of the stroke process before the tip has hit the ball. Checking up the stroke/beginning the cue deceleration before tip contact can cause one or more of the following:
A. The cue to be jerked off the stroke line (causing the cue ball to be hit in slightly the wrong direction)
B. The tip to hit a different place on the cue ball than you intended (causing the cue ball squirt and swerve to change as well as changing the cue ball spin which in turn changes the amount of spin induced object ball throw)
C. The shot speed to be softer than you intended (resulting in increased cut induced throw, spin induced throw, and cue ball swerve)

A, B and C individually or in combination can cause the types of misses he talks about in the video. I agree with iusedtoberich that the biggest culprits to the types of misses in the video will tend to be the increased throw caused by the slower cue ball speed of an incomplete/checked up stroke, and the cueing inaccuracy caused by checking up on the stroke.

The lack of follow through itself has no effect whatsoever unless it happens to affect one of the things mentioned above. The reason good follow through is so vitally important is because it helps to ensure that you hit the cue ball on the spot you intend to, at the speed you intend to, and on the stroke line you intend to, and not because follow through has any effect in and of itself--because it doesn't.
 
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3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
Yeah, going off line is the logical conclusion, but do righties under cut the shot and lefties over cut it then? LOL ... I dunno. Loveto get Lees take on this too.
 

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The follow through is a sign of how you hit the shot. So, i have a long follow through and if i don't follow through enough its because i hit the shot bad. Either i gave up halfway through or wasn't 100% certain ony aim..the list goes on. Whilst i agree the follow through does not have an influence on the shot it is not completely useless. If i concentrate on flowing right through then i tend to hit the shot sweet because i make sure i accelerate the cue until the ball is gone. Deceleration or not accelerating enough compared to qhat you usually do is possibly the biggest reason the shot comes up short when you do not follow through enough.
 

randyg

www.randygpool.com
Silver Member
Follow Through doesn't effect the cue ball after contact. Follow Through should be the completion of a perfect stroke. More Mental than Physical! We Follow Through for our Accuracy and to make sure we are still Accelerating at time of contact.

The cue ball is gone in less than a 1/4 inch or about 1/1000 of a second.

Therefore the length of Follow Through is a personal distance that has nothing to do with the aim or cue ball.

randyg
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich has already more or less given the answer broken up into a couple of different posts. Unfortunately I can't give him another greenie yet for the great contribution.

For any given set of equipment and equipment conditions, the only things that have any noticeable affect on how the cue ball reacts when struck by the cue are:
1. Where the cue ball is struck
2. How hard the cue ball is struck
3. The angle at which the cue ball is struck (the elevation of the cue)

Nothing else matters or has any effect, including how well you followed through, whether you were accelerating or decelerating at impact, whether your grip was loose or tight, etc.

But here is where those things can and do cause problems, and I will specifically address the not following through as that is what was discussed in the video and what is being asked about. If you aren't properly following through, you often or perhaps even usually started the deceleration/termination of the stroke process before the tip has hit the ball. Checking up the stroke/beginning the cue deceleration before tip contact can cause one or more of the following:
A. The cue to be jerked off the stroke line (causing the cue ball to be hit in slightly the wrong direction)
B. The tip to hit a different place on the cue ball than you intended (causing the cue ball squirt and swerve to change as well as changing the cue ball spin which in turn changes the amount of spin induced object ball throw)
C. The shot speed to be softer than you intended (resulting in increased cut induced throw, spin induced throw, and cue ball swerve)

A, B and C individually or in combination can cause the types of misses he talks about in the video. I agree with iusedtoberich that the biggest culprits to the types of misses in the video will tend to be the increased throw caused by the slower cue ball speed of an incomplete/checked up stroke, and the cueing inaccuracy caused by checking up on the stroke.

The lack of follow through itself has no effect whatsoever unless it happens to affect one of the things mentioned above. The reason good follow through is so vitally important is because it helps to ensure that you hit the cue ball on the spot you intend to, at the speed you intend to, and on the stroke line you intend to, and not because follow through has any effect in and of itself--because it doesn't.

100% agree.
 

Colin Colenso

<-- My Kids
Silver Member
The follow through is a sign of how you hit the shot. So, i have a long follow through and if i don't follow through enough its because i hit the shot bad. Either i gave up halfway through or wasn't 100% certain ony aim..the list goes on. Whilst i agree the follow through does not have an influence on the shot it is not completely useless. If i concentrate on flowing right through then i tend to hit the shot sweet because i make sure i accelerate the cue until the ball is gone. Deceleration or not accelerating enough compared to qhat you usually do is possibly the biggest reason the shot comes up short when you do not follow through enough.
I agree and I'd add that another advantage of thinking about hitting through the CB is that it can reduce a player's tendency to steer the CB via swiping.

On the general topic, I'd add that a reasonable length and relaxed (near to or actually pausing) can help to prevent the short jabby under-stroke. Perhaps focusing on a follow through encourages this.
 
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BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree and I'd add that another advantage of thinking about hitting through the CB is that it can reduce a player's tendency to steer the CB via swiping.

On the general topic, I'd add that a reasonable length and relaxed (near to or actually pausing) can help to prevent the short jabby under-stroke.

That's what works for me.
 

Eurotroll

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich has already more or less given the answer broken up into a couple of different posts. Unfortunately I can't give him another greenie yet for the great contribution.

For any given set of equipment and equipment conditions, the only things that have any noticeable affect on how the cue ball reacts when struck by the cue are:
1. Where the cue ball is struck
2. How hard the cue ball is struck
3. The angle at which the cue ball is struck (the elevation of the cue)

Nothing else matters or has any effect, including how well you followed through, whether you were accelerating or decelerating at impact, whether your grip was loose or tight, etc.

But here is where those things can and do cause problems, and I will specifically address the not following through as that is what was discussed in the video and what is being asked about. If you aren't properly following through, you often or perhaps even usually started the deceleration/termination of the stroke process before the tip has hit the ball. Checking up the stroke/beginning the cue deceleration before tip contact can cause one or more of the following:
A. The cue to be jerked off the stroke line (causing the cue ball to be hit in slightly the wrong direction)
B. The tip to hit a different place on the cue ball than you intended (causing the cue ball squirt and swerve to change as well as changing the cue ball spin which in turn changes the amount of spin induced object ball throw)
C. The shot speed to be softer than you intended (resulting in increased cut induced throw, spin induced throw, and cue ball swerve)

A, B and C individually or in combination can cause the types of misses he talks about in the video. I agree with iusedtoberich that the biggest culprits to the types of misses in the video will tend to be the increased throw caused by the slower cue ball speed of an incomplete/checked up stroke, and the cueing inaccuracy caused by checking up on the stroke.

The lack of follow through itself has no effect whatsoever unless it happens to affect one of the things mentioned above. The reason good follow through is so vitally important is because it helps to ensure that you hit the cue ball on the spot you intend to, at the speed you intend to, and on the stroke line you intend to, and not because follow through has any effect in and of itself--because it doesn't.

This could be a fixed thread in the forum.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Good post. The truth is that the amount of "followthrough" has no bearing on the effect with the CB. That effect is predetermined at contact with the CB (CB leaves the tip after 1/1000th of a second). Certainly decelerating the cuestick can cause problems with speed control, which is why we develop a standard 'range of motion'...which can be a pendulum swing or a piston stroke. A pendulum is easier to repeat and very likely more accurate because it's a simpler movement of the cue, and doesn't involve the shoulder (which is a ball and socket, which can easily steer the cue).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Well, if its not a slower speed caused by an incomplete stroke, then I'd venture to guess, that it is a cuing inaccuracy caused by "checking up" on the stroke.

All this should be prefaced with: Is this truly an observable and repeatable affect? The idea that a shot misses short by varying the follow through. That point in itself is not actually proven. Just because Lee says it, and you and I may have experienced it, does not make it so:)
 
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