It's still moving forward, just in a different direction. The tip goes back and then forward.
legal or illegal hit/shot
- Thread starter nine o nine
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It's still moving forward, just in a different direction. The tip goes back and then forward.
No it is not legal in APA.
See this is the problem with so many people. First they are unable to think for themselves and believe that if something does not specifically say they can or can't do something it is their choice. Second they are unable to take the complete context of a rule book and use proper judgement in coming to a conclusion because they view it from the way they want the outcome to be.
This is not specifically mentioned nor is a stroke defined as moving forward so weak minded people conclude that if the rule does not mentioned this nip shot specifically it is allowed. However, if you look a the double hit sections concerning close balls they tell you the 2 allowable ways to try to avoid fouling by lessening your chance of double hitting. 1.) Shoot off at an angle or 2.) Rise your stick to 30 degrees. No where in there does it mention the nip shot and it shouldn't need to as it is not a legal shot according to any international rules.
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No it is not. It is moving up, not forward.
If forward is defined from the back of the cue to the front of the cue, than I believe it is forward.
A vertical masse shot goes up and down - not forward.
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The first definition I looked at reads: "toward the front; in the direction that one is facing or traveling". Seems like if the cue is a straight line, and it is pointing in a given direction, then it is a forward motion.
Do you believe that a masse is illegal? No? Rule makers seem to agree with me.
Imagine a little dude sitting in the tip of your cue looking where the cue is pointed. would he be moving forward?
You are wrong.......... it is perfectly legal in the APA.......... look it up............
Kim
Cue is moving forward in that scenario. Butt is following tip in a straight line, not sweeping an arc.
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And what if you move the ball with your ferrule? I don't believe that is legal, is it?
Prove that you didn't.
I'll call a guy on such a sweep move every time. A pool cue isn't a club or bat, one does not swing it...unless one is in a bar fight of course.
But then...perhaps that's why I don't play on teams...or APA.
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That's not correct. APA rules are very detailed for just this reason, so there's no "context" or "interpretation" (arguing) at 10pm on league night. This particular shot is not covered.
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The WPA rules committee intended to mean forward along the axis of the cue stick, not forward relative to how the shooter is facing. The "along the axis" wording did not make it into the final draft, evidently. There was never any intention to make masse shots illegal.
I suppose you could also argue (hopefully without effect) that if the player is turned sideways, all his shots are illegal.
still to win the argument you have to tell him before the shot as he is lining it up.
same as with a frozen ball, or a chance of a double hit. you cant tell him the ball was frozen after the shot or you heard a click so it was a double hit or the way the cue ball traveled it had to be. you have to warn him before the shot to win the argument.
same as with a frozen ball, or a chance of a double hit. you cant tell him the ball was frozen after the shot or you heard a click so it was a double hit or the way the cue ball traveled it had to be. you have to warn him before the shot to win the argument.
I understand the intent of the rule along the axis of the cue and certainly don't think masse shots are illegal. I do think that language should be included in the rule as 'forward' is ambiguous in this case.
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Lol, the APA leaves a lot open to sportsmanship. That is some of the biggest whining I hear from people here about it.
One example, as I had one captain try to pull this on me, show me where in the rules it says that a double-hit is a ball in hand foul.
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Please direct me to the page in the rule book that says this. I can't seem to find it.
Unless we are talking about 2 different things then it most certainly is not.
You are placing the tip under the curvature of the cue ball and lifting the tip up to move the ball forward. There is not a person alive, nor that has ever lived or will live, that can stroke forward less then 1/16th of an inch to make a legal hit.
Technically you can do this same thing going from any side, but that is moot.
A Swipe would give you a Push Shot 99.9% of the time.
Or at least in the way that one would envision a Swipe across an object.
I couldn't see this as being a very reliable shot in any type of situation, as you still have to not allow the cue ball to cross the object balls tangent line.
Between the 2, you would most assuredly double your chance of a Foul.
Or at least in the way that one would envision a Swipe across an object.
I couldn't see this as being a very reliable shot in any type of situation, as you still have to not allow the cue ball to cross the object balls tangent line.
Between the 2, you would most assuredly double your chance of a Foul.
Actually, my thought is that weak minded people are unable to have an open mind and problem solve in a creative way. It appears that you see things one way and that way is your way, if others don't see it the same way, well, then they are absolutely wrong. You see, here on AZ we had this discussion about a year ago. Now I've seen this shot preformed at every level of APA play, and I do mean every level, and I have never once seen it called a foul, so just to be sure I emailed the APA administrative offices in St. Louis and asked. I described the shot where you put the cue tip under the edge of the cue ball and hold the cue close to the ferrule and yank up touching the cue ball one time. I also mentioned the WPA rule regarding a forward stroke with the cue, I was reasonably detailed so there wouldn't be any confusion. I received an email back from The APA telling me that the question was presented to that person's superior just to be certain. The response clearly said that the shot was NOT a foul, although unique, not illegal. The APA Team Manual clearly says your cue may make one contact with the cue ball (...you may not alter the path...) and never mentions "forward stroke" or "axis". I'm sure you're familiar with the rules and all like that, but I think it would be smarter to go with what an actual APA official says is the actual rule. I wanted to be sure, it was simple, so I asked.
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Not ambiguous under CSI / BCAPL rules. From the definition of "Legal Stroke" in CSI rules:
"..."Forward" means relative to the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of their body."
Buddy
Did you show him? The guy was an asshat, you should have bet him your team's drink tab for the evening first