Let's talk about some precision machining...
- Thread starter Monstermash
- Start date
Wait a minute, I am looking at this piece, is it actually 3 Three-dimensional? I am beginning now to think it is scrimshaw. Am I wrong?So I was at PFD Studios again today and as usual I was treated to some extraordinary sights. This one was a bit different that what I usually get to see and play with.
The following photos are of the Mayan calendar machined into a piece of Ivory that is destined to adorn a custom case to match a special cue Paul is working on called "The Aztec Princess".
It is my understanding that the machining was done by a .0005 end mill. Yes folks, thats THREE ZERO's before the 5.
Just curious if there are any other cuemakers out there doing this kind of detail work? It is amazing in person!
This first photo was just used for scale to give you an idea of just how small the glyphs are.
This is a crop to show the details and to see that it is in fact machined into the Ivory. No decals, screenprinting,or other trickery here!
I am sorry but I call BS. If you look at the close up you can plainly see that the lines and arcs are not true. The lines change in thickness and are not straight. None of the circles are round or a consistant size. A cam program converts everything to arcs and lines. This piece if done with cam would be extremely difficult and in the end you would end up with consistant line width and round circles. I work with endmills that go down to 0.003" and when they are that small they break when you sneeze. So like has been stated before there is no such thing as 0.0005 endmills. This piece is impressive enough why the need to try and bamboozle us with BS. Why not just show the pics and let us ooh and awe?
Don't know much about it but isn't there a way you scan pictures and convert it to g code? I think I heard talk about this before. Two words come to mind that were used in the discussion. Not sure if I'm spelling them right but I think it was "vector" and "raster"?
0005 endmills do exist, although i doubt anyone other than nasa can afford a spindle or machine tight enough to run one.
First option, although i dont think this is how its done, is, scanned/vectorized, and then milled with an engraving bit. The inconsistencies /unsmooth lines could be explained by the machine not being 100% tight, and also the material chipping out where the choppy edges are. Even then, for as small as this is, the machine would have to be pretty tight to achieve that alone.
My guess though.....LASER....mostly because i know Paul has been looking into them for the past year or so. Also, it naturaly burns the material, so there is no need to ink it.
First option, although i dont think this is how its done, is, scanned/vectorized, and then milled with an engraving bit. The inconsistencies /unsmooth lines could be explained by the machine not being 100% tight, and also the material chipping out where the choppy edges are. Even then, for as small as this is, the machine would have to be pretty tight to achieve that alone.
My guess though.....LASER....mostly because i know Paul has been looking into them for the past year or so. Also, it naturaly burns the material, so there is no need to ink it.
If they exist show me one, or a website where they can be purchased. I've been in this trade a long time and have no knowledge of one that small. If you can point me in the right direction I'd love to read up about them.
RBC
Deceased
I've been waiting for someone to say Laser. That's what it looks like to me.
To give credit, someone did mention photo etching, which may be the same or similar to laser engraving, but I don't know.
I do know that you can take an image of something like this, bring it in to many of the available cad programs, and "Vectorize" it. From there, G code is easy, and it would resemble the image so it wouldn't have to have prefect circles and straight lines. Cutting it is something all together different. That vectorized image is converted into little lines and arcs, and the arcs can't be smaller than the diameter of your cutter or the image is badly distorted. Really though, this is all the hard way.
For the laser, just bring the image into Corel, scale it and locate it in your laser machine, and send it. It's really like a printer, but with a laser. In a few minutes, you have an engraving.
Oh, by the way, you need a $30,000 laser too.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
To give credit, someone did mention photo etching, which may be the same or similar to laser engraving, but I don't know.
I do know that you can take an image of something like this, bring it in to many of the available cad programs, and "Vectorize" it. From there, G code is easy, and it would resemble the image so it wouldn't have to have prefect circles and straight lines. Cutting it is something all together different. That vectorized image is converted into little lines and arcs, and the arcs can't be smaller than the diameter of your cutter or the image is badly distorted. Really though, this is all the hard way.
For the laser, just bring the image into Corel, scale it and locate it in your laser machine, and send it. It's really like a printer, but with a laser. In a few minutes, you have an engraving.
Oh, by the way, you need a $30,000 laser too.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Yes laser would make the most sense. The depth of pockets are not consistent so that also goes with the laser theory. So I guess it is cnc but not with an end mill. Thank you lgsm3 for providing the link to the nano end mills. I can't imagine the depth of cut be more than twice the diameter of the cutter. I wonder how they make end mills that small. Thank you for educating me.
First, the smallest endmills I've ever seen are here:
www.harveytool.com
.001 is the smallest I see there, but the depth of cut is only .003 on it, so it couldtn't make this part any way, even with alot of passes there would not be sufficient clearance above the cut.
I'd really like to know what the material really is,,,,I see no grain or color variation that is inherent to ivory.
The problem with scanning is that it is 2D and so even if you did get the geometry to a DXF file it still would not have varying depth. 3D scanners are around that work off of point clouds-polygons-surfaces, but are no where near accurate enough for this level of work. I'm starting to think this is just a casting, which the dark surfaces heavily support in my opinion.
I'd also like to know if Mr Drexler actually said he made the part, as well as the spindle he cut it with. I know he does top notch cues,,,,but I don't believe he does this,,,,,,,
If I'm wrong, I'm very impressed!
www.harveytool.com
.001 is the smallest I see there, but the depth of cut is only .003 on it, so it couldtn't make this part any way, even with alot of passes there would not be sufficient clearance above the cut.
I'd really like to know what the material really is,,,,I see no grain or color variation that is inherent to ivory.
The problem with scanning is that it is 2D and so even if you did get the geometry to a DXF file it still would not have varying depth. 3D scanners are around that work off of point clouds-polygons-surfaces, but are no where near accurate enough for this level of work. I'm starting to think this is just a casting, which the dark surfaces heavily support in my opinion.
I'd also like to know if Mr Drexler actually said he made the part, as well as the spindle he cut it with. I know he does top notch cues,,,,but I don't believe he does this,,,,,,,
If I'm wrong, I'm very impressed!
If Mr Drexler says it is ivory who am I not to believe him. I just can't see anything definitive in the pictures to confirm that, but the claim here is that it is CNC milled, which I'm pretty sure it is not. I also don't believe it is lasered as the costs would be astronomically high (if it were milled also) just for a decoration to go on a case. My best bet would be either an acid etching (which would explain the black, uneven-ness of the lower areas, as well as the imperfections in the contours) or maybe some type of casting process. Either would be substancially cheaper to produce.
They exist, I've heard of end mills as small as .0002 and with one quick search I found this. http://www.pmtnow.com/#
This could be machined and programed without too much trouble but it would be much more cost effective to laser it.
maybe u should keep practicing, anybody with a desktop machine these days can do machining with an 0005 endmill!
its a joke....the whole thread is joke. Cant you hear Paul laughing?
POOLSTICKRICK
Registered
http://www.epiloglaser.com/index.htm LOOK AT THE RIGHT SIDE
Here's the video of the same people engraving that piece that's in the picture
http://www.epiloglaser.com/video/aztec_calendar_cutting_video.htm
http://www.epiloglaser.com/video/aztec_calendar_cutting_video.htm
Good Replies..
I like the replies on this post..
Got lots of info. on micro CNC machining...
I love small CNC stuff...
Question for cuemakers:
Note: I know this Aztec Callender is not on the pool cue... :smile:
Is this type of machining "Presentations", or work, good to do on cues?
( Not the design itself, but, the final end result that the design has low spots)
Meaning. there is no clearcoat/level surface, so, on a cue,
the open/low spots will collect dust and get ugly?
or, the fine raised details in the machined piece might get "Chipped"
if it is hit against a hard protruding surface?
I've notice that The ICCS Cue has "3D" A Axis work in the Joint Collar and Butt Cap..
Will these be a sign of things to come on cues?
Alton :smile:
Personally, my smallest bit is .0079"
I like the replies on this post..
Got lots of info. on micro CNC machining...
I love small CNC stuff...
Question for cuemakers:
Note: I know this Aztec Callender is not on the pool cue... :smile:
Is this type of machining "Presentations", or work, good to do on cues?
( Not the design itself, but, the final end result that the design has low spots)
Meaning. there is no clearcoat/level surface, so, on a cue,
the open/low spots will collect dust and get ugly?
or, the fine raised details in the machined piece might get "Chipped"
if it is hit against a hard protruding surface?
I've notice that The ICCS Cue has "3D" A Axis work in the Joint Collar and Butt Cap..
Will these be a sign of things to come on cues?
Alton :smile:
Personally, my smallest bit is .0079"
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maybe u should keep practicing, anybody with a desktop machine these days can do machining with an 0005 endmill!
its a joke....the whole thread is joke. Cant you hear Paul laughing?
Hi,
Paul is laughing all the way to the bank. Some of his cues are some high dollar offerings due to the creative work.
I love guys that get big dollars for their cues because they prove that you will be paid for what you think you are worth if you can back it up with the goods.
Proprietary sales rock, commodity sales suck unless there is very high volume units produced. I like the notion of the proprietary sales.
Kudos to Paul Drexler for his raising the bar with such an astounding detail which promotes his brand.
Rick