Lil John's Big Stakes

chefjeff said:
Here we go again :mad: ...someone else has again started trouble where before there was none.

"Must be a subscriber"???...lol...Unless someone steals it and illegally post it here.

So people here give thanks for receiving stolen property while there's moral indignation about Kevin and his past, and now this thread's pissing about a $200 apparent cue ripoff! And then there's complaining about lack of good media coverage for pool! DER! Geez...look in the mirror! We're trying to clean up the image of pool to attract good attention to the game???? Yeah, right.

To me, this theft is grounds for being removed from the AZ board as it is a direct violation of the agreement with SI and with the agreement with AZ. I won't be waiting for this to happen of course, as it seems that just being a loud mouth gets ya barred but being a crook doesn't seem to matter.

Btw, I started no trouble, to those here who will mindlessly and cowardly slam me for this ethical revelation. Before you start more trouble, think about that fact of reality. I'll go through the facts again and again if I must, but it won't be fun, that's for sure. I'm donning my hardhat.

Jeff Livingston
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i hope you are kidding about this. i drove 38 in a 35mph zone yesterday after reading the s.i. article because i was so excited. i wanted to get to the pool hall and smoke a joint before i went in to play for my usual $100 a game and while i was playing i told my friend about the article and he asked for a copy of it. so i printed one for him and each member of his family. the way i see it, between you and me, we broke about 13 laws together. i am going to the police station right now to turn myself in. don't worry i will not mention your name. (my name is billy h. and the h stands for hand me a paddle because i done bad.)
 
I am a subscriber. I paid for it. I did as as I pleased.

Somehow I knew Jeff was going to jump on to this one again....
 
Billy H. said:
i hope you are kidding about this. i drove 38 in a 35mph zone yesterday after reading the s.i. article because i was so excited. i wanted to get to the pool hall and smoke a joint before i went in to play for my usual $100 a game and while i was playing i told my friend about the article and he asked for a copy of it. so i printed one for him and each member of his family. the way i see it, between you and me, we broke about 13 laws together. i am going to the police station right now to turn myself in. don't worry i will not mention your name. (my name is billy h. and the h stands for hand me a paddle because i done bad.)
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I care about integrity in the pool world as it is a direct reflection on our wonderful sport and the people in it, including me. I don't kid about that.

Of the 13 or so laws you claimed to have broken, only the theft of intellectual property harmed another; the rest are victimless, so don't carry any weight with objective justice. I am again simply pointing out an obvious fact of reality: the immorality of breaking contracts (lack of integrity) and the delivering of stolen property (theft).

Last time, the stolen Basivich article had well over 3,000 hits. Speculation: Say 10% of those readers would have paid SI $25 to read it, the resulting theft cost SI about $7,500.00 of revenue. Now this new one is costing them, too, and Mike is apparently again ignoring the theft and the use of his AZ property in helping with it.

On a personal AZ note, how is Diane H.going to get paid for her photos when some of the funds to do so have been taken away? What about her contract with SI? Don't you care about her?

But gosh, don't say shit or ***** or ****, cuz that's "bad." There's children here and those might send the wrong message.

What if it was YOUR $7,500.00 (or pick any number that suits you) that was stolen once---and now again? Would you be so quick to justify the theft and excuse the thief? Hmmmm?

Jeff Livingston
 
1pRoscoe said:
I am a subscriber. I paid for it. I did as as I pleased.

Somehow I knew Jeff was going to jump on to this one again....
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You did as you pleased. Gee, really? But what you did NOT do was what you promised AZ and SI you would do: follow the contracts you have with them.

You have displayed for all to see, not just the article, but yourself.

Jeff Livingston
 
Have you?

chefjeff said:
I care about integrity in the pool world as it is a direct reflection on our wonderful sport and the people in it, including me. I don't kid about that.

Of the 13 or so laws you claimed to have broken, only the theft of intellectual property harmed another; the rest are victimless, so don't carry any weight with objective justice. I am again simply pointing out an obvious fact of reality: the immorality of breaking contracts (lack of integrity) and the delivering of stolen property (theft).

Last time, the stolen Basivich article had well over 3,000 hits. Speculation: Say 10% of those readers would have paid SI $25 to read it, the resulting theft cost SI about $7,500.00 of revenue. Now this new one is costing them, too, and Mike is apparently again ignoring the theft and the use of his AZ property in helping with it.

On a personal AZ note, how is Diane H.going to get paid for her photos when some of the funds to do so have been taken away? What about her contract with SI? Don't you care about her?

But gosh, don't say shit or ***** or ****, cuz that's "bad." There's children here and those might send the wrong message.

What if it was YOUR $7,500.00 (or pick any number that suits you) that was stolen once---and now again? Would you be so quick to justify the theft and excuse the thief? Hmmmm?

Jeff Livingston
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ever considered going to work for a Record Company, Jeff? I think you
clearly would be an asset. BTW, why do they still call them Record Companies, records have been obsolete for decades?

My analysis of the original topic:
1) Lil John, being the big gambler he is, was stupid to put the money
under the table in foreign waters... especially with only 1 sleepy cohort
with him... Dumb, Dumb, Dumb ...
A failsafe in that situation is to get a person who is self-employed with
his own company, known to be honest, and can be verified locally about
his business, to hold the money for a percentage or fee. That way, if
something happens, you damn sure know who to look up.
2) The Justis issue. I can not imagine someone like Lil John not being able
to borrow $200 in any hometown Pool room in about 10 seconds. He could have given the loaner a 1% take of his next big game for payback. How many times do you think he borrowed money to play on about those times?

The very nature of his 'occupation' has dramatic ups and downs, and it is
extremely difficult to even maintain a moderate level of living over an
extended period of time, especially with a family involved.
 
Cases

Maybe one of you will go to the joint and learn to manufacture cue cases,and years later get holy and be a good Lord-luving Christian. Most of these guys have been screwing pool folks most of their life. They now talk too much BULLSHIT! Joe Bowman
 
chefjeff said:
Last time, the stolen Basivich article had well over 3,000 hits. Speculation: Say 10% of those readers would have paid SI $25 to read it, the resulting theft cost SI about $7,500.00 of revenue. Now this new one is costing them, too, and Mike is apparently again ignoring the theft and the use of his AZ property in helping with it.
What if it was YOUR $7,500.00 (or pick any number that suits you) that was stolen once---and now again? Would you be so quick to justify the theft and excuse the thief? Hmmmm?

Jeff Livingston
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why are you still here reading in this corrupted forum? if i lost $7,500 but gained millions because of 1 article i don't think i would lose any sleep over it. this is the internet, wake up. billy h. and the h. stands for helping fellow azbers out.
 
How many?

of you have ever downloaded music from the internet, or jaywalked?
It all results in lost revenue for someone. I lose revenue when someone refuses the spot that is offered. Am I sounding a little anti-sanctimonious.
Well, it is just to level things out a little ...lol

How many of us are losing revenue because of outsourcing, or
NAFTA AND CAFTA? See my point Jeff, there are bigger fish
to fry?
 
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While Jeff is morally correct on this one, I have to point out that anyone who buys anything from BEST BUY stores (the one around here anyway) is offered a couple months of SI for free.

I doubt they really care if people are reading it on the internet. Its advertising for them in a way; you don't have a stolen, collectible hard copy of the mag which will be worth $$ later or anything.

What if someone paraphrased it? How many words would you have to change before it was kosher to spread the story?


I really doubt SI cares. Next time someone posts one of their stories we'll put a big "BUY SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" at the head of the post to appease 'em.
 
Snapshot9 said:
of you have ever downloaded music from the internet, or jaywalked?
It all results in lost revenue for someone. I lose revenue when someone refuses the spot that is offered. Am I sounding a little anti-sanctimonious.
Well, it is just to level things out a little ...lol

How many of us are losing revenue because of outsourcing, or
NAFTA AND CAFTA? See my point Jeff, there are bigger fish
to fry?
Click to expand...

The only crime you listed was the downloading of music from the internet, IF the property was protected by law in the first place. I've never done that, since you asked.

The rest of your examples don't involve initiatory force so aren't criminal or immoral and therefore aren't pertinent to this argument.

Thanks for responding,

Jeff Livingston
 
I also cut the tags off of mattresses and order pizzas and make up coupons and other blood-thirsty shit like that....
 
What I want to know How can anyone be as dumb as Ruberto.....he knocks his own action by allowing them to use his name??? Maybe he's just happy to be in SI??? Its one thing on a web site for Pool but in a national publication??

The same goes for Lil Jon. why allow a story which boasts your accomplishments and alerts the public about your skills...You never know when you might stumble across a fool and his money.....Now the fool might know a little something...

There was so much made over the unknown road player protecting his face, now we have a road player throwing caution to the wind????
 
Lil Jon likes people to know who he is, He wonts the best game with the most money when he goes into a town. He may miss out on some small scores because he is known, but he doesn't care about the small ones anyway. :p Bet high and outrun the nuts thats Lil Jon
 
Opinions, everybody has one.

Someone called me a few minutes ago and told me to look at this thread. I had no idea that all this was going on or I would haved voiced my opinion earlier. A few things that came up really disturbed me. In reference to the Jack Justis situation I already apologized to Jack at the US OPEN for not paying the balance off on my case and I also apologized on the "auction" forum quite some time ago when the situation was originally addressed. I thought we were over this but I guess not. At the time this happened I went busted and stayed that way for a while. When Jack and or his wife called in regards to the balance I finally said that I would pay the money but I needed some time. I guess the "time" issue was never clearly addressed and after a couple of months of waiting Jack finally decided to sell it on ebay titlted, "unclaimed freight." I wasnt mad b/c I new I couldnt pay at the time but I think its ridiculous that a business man such as Jack would come on here and publicy embarass me over an issue that could have been resolved with a little more time, not to mention that I said I was sorry and I understood that business was business and there were no hard feelings. I personally think it was a bad move on his part for not making sure the case got in my hands due to the amount of people that "sweat" me play all over the US anyway. Not to mention that one individual saw my case and liked it so much that he purchased one identical to it for full price b/c he liked mine so much.(Charlie Mora, McCallen TX) From a marketing standpoint we all lost but addressing the issue in detail on this forum to parties who were not involved is ridiculous and this I know is right. Just like the Article said I have a house and a family and they come first before gambling, new cases, etc. Another issue is I could have borrowed the money locally but Im so tired of borrowing over the years and making myself "vunerable" to threads like this, public discussions. etc that Im trying to prevent these things from happening again.
Housestick lived in Hattiesburg for years before he moved off and has seen me have many highs and lows and understands that I am willing to go all in at any time if I think I can win. Hell sometimes I go all in anyway. This is what has made me a better player today. Until your 1,000 miles away from home, on your case dough, and its hill, hill and you must come with it off the back rail for everthing you've got in the world you have no idea what its like to be a "Real Gambler" nor should you really comment. Situations like this is what causes pool players, gamblers to be late and not be able to really commit to specifc deadlines and get themsleves into "thread conversations" like the one above. Now that Ive "weathered the storm" I can only go up hill from here and I cant wait to get my chance at the IPT in Feb. Five years from now guys like Jack will have to pay me to use his case if he chooses for a good player to advertise for him. This is where we are headed and when I get there what are you guys going to have to talk about then? Nothing! Believe I have paid my dues and dedicated the last 27 years to this game so I dont need any critism from people who havent walked in my shoes about whether what I do is right or wrong. I've apologized and admitted that I made a mistake but real soon I wont owe, ask to borrow, or be involved with this again. If I owe you something as soon as I snap off one of those tournaments come get it. Im the type of guy that wants to pay you more than you wont to get paid and believe me Im practicing everyday.
About the article: Im glad John Weirthen hunted me down and did an article on me. Yes, Im sure that I knocked alot of action but look where all this action had got me so far. Im 27 and broke but I ve got a hell of a reputation. Yes, Ive accumulated things along the way and I thank pool for that but I also have accumulated alot of topics of conversation that I would have rather not been involved in.( The Boston thing,etc) Constantly borrowing money to gamble on over the years has cost me alot of friends and I hope through the IPT I will be able to say, "See, I knew one day all this would pay off." It is my "opinion" that gambling is how my game improved to a level that I can compete in races to 9 with anyone. It is also my "opinion" that gambling higher and higher like the article says really improves your game and makes you mentally strong to be able to produce in critcal situations. Im not saying the path I took to become a good player is right but b/c Ive already done it like this it is proven in my case that it works and know I have a chance to make some real money in a legitimate way.Thanks Shane for trying to make them understand what I went through coming up with pool and letting them know that Ive always "TRIED" to be a stand up guy but when you are a real gambler being stand up with money can only happen when your winning. Never once in 27 years have I ducked anyone or not paid a debt whether it be gambling or a "square" debt and that is something I am proud of. Sometimes Ive needed time but you know what they say, "QUALITY TAKES TIME." LilJon
 
I am no gambler. However, since this is a public forum of which I am a member, I believe I have as much right as everyone else to express my opinion.

From what I read, Jack did not start telling everyone the whole stories about Little Jon and him until someone started saying that Little Jon had paid over $300 as a deposit and so on and so forth. There were indications that some members felt that Jack was in the wrong in this incident. I can see why Jack would feel the need to step forth to address the issue to clear the situation so to speak. He also stated that he had no hard feelings about this and he had decided to move on.

I cannot recall him calling Jon any name and he was merely telling his side of the story. It appears to me that he was telling his side of the story to clear up some misunderstandings that other might have.

I do not know much about whether Jack should pay anyone to use his case. It appears to me that household names all over the world are carrying Jack's case. A lot of them play with Jack Justis cases on TV such as Efren Reyes, Jennifer Chen, Allison Fisher, Corey Deuel...etc.

I am not aware that any of them ever got paid by Jack to use his case. From my experience of talking to some of them personally, it is my understanding that they are very proud of their cases and they are using Justis cases because they like them.

I am not sure if I am correct in assuming that Reyes could probably get any case or any cue he wants from any cue maker for free, and I am not sure if I am correct in assuming may be he could ask any case company to pay him to use their case just because of how often he appears on TV and how famous he is, I just simply cannot think of a more well known and wonderful pool player other than Efren Reyes so perhaps I wil express my opinion using Reyes as an example.

Evidently, Reyes is also a man of his words in his dealing with Jack. I remember seeing him returning a case made with Italian White Leather with his own name done in Solid Silver back to Jack in Vegas through his friend because he was not able to attend that tournament. I may be wrong here but I am sure he could have told Jack that he would simply return the case next time he met Jack, and Jack would not press him; instead, Reyes kept his words and went through the trouble of having his friend took his case back to Jack as he promised he would. I am very impressed with Reye's attitude.

Despite his fame, he has shown me that he is a man of his words. I have a lot of respect for him because of that. I believe a player can improve his game but it is much harder to change his belief and attitude in life. As the old saying goes, "old habbits die hard."

I must admit I have never watched little Jon play pool in any tournament or TV matchs, so I really do not know how good he is. I therefore feel that I have no right in commenting on whether the Jack should have let him have the case for more market exposure or that Jack should have paid him to use his case.

Since time is also money as we know it, I also do not know if Jack has suffered any lost when he did not receive the money he was promised. I know chasing people for money is an agony. I am not sure if Jack had made any plan based on Jon's promise and had to change or cancel his plan becasue Jon did not make his payment.

All I know is that personally, I have lots of people owing me money, and it is not as simply as saying sorry when they could not make their payments.

Unfortunately, I have bills to pay and plans which I have made, and I have suffered lost and experienced a lot of inconvenience when people could not keep their promise.

I also appreciate them to give me a courtesy call ahead of time out of consideration to give me some time to adjust my plan/schedule. I wonder if little Jon had called Jack about his situtation a bit ahead of time when he knew he was "busted?"

Well, of course, this is really none of my business. I just want to express my thought about this matter from my perspective. Sometimes, it is unfortunate how people may not see that perspective when he/she is too caught up in listening to him/her self talk about how good he/she is/is going to be.

Richard
 
The Kiss said:
What I want to know How can anyone be as dumb as Ruberto.....he knocks his own action by allowing them to use his name??? Maybe he's just happy to be in SI??? Its one thing on a web site for Pool but in a national publication??

The same goes for Lil Jon. why allow a story which boasts your accomplishments and alerts the public about your skills...You never know when you might stumble across a fool and his money.....Now the fool might know a little something...

There was so much made over the unknown road player protecting his face, now we have a road player throwing caution to the wind????
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Lil Jon is a pool player and in a big way about self-promotion. To many that sounds negative and sounds as if he is shooting himsilf in the foot. I don't see it that way.
Times have changed for the road player. No road player can sustian a bankroll running around the country playing local tournament and playing$20 $50. $100. or even $200 sets or by playing for $20 or $50.00 per game as in the past. If you are going to support two families, (yourself out on the road and the one at home) it takes a real gunslinger attitude these days. We used to sneak up on people and stall and so forth, but those days are just about gone.
Lil Jon came through my hometown about 6 months ago and I got a call and went to the pool room knowing I was going to take a shot at him. Just business nothing personal, but guys like him don't come through my nedk of the woods everyday. We put up ( I best remember) 2 $750.00 sets and played races to 11. Now I don't play like days of old and the table is a bit of a trick table, so if I get to him early, I have a chance to really win something. We ended up breaking even, LJ winning the first set and me winning the 2nd set. LJ tried hard to push the bet, (the right move) and I declined because I knew I got pretty lucky to win tha 2nd.
Here is my point in LJ'S defense. The only reason I took a shot at LJ is because of his reputation. If he likes the game, you have a potential score on your hands. We were in my House and on my turf, so I felt like a had a good chance, IF, I got to him early. If it wasn't for his reputation, I never would have played because I'm twice his age and just don't make the tought shot like I did years past. He had a chance to win $1500 and no telling what I might have made, just ecause of his reputation. Nobody was fooling anybody, and LJ knew exactly what I was doing because he is a SHARP young man. So, in a sense, I was throwing a tooth pick at the Lumber Yard.
He needs to promote himself with any chance he gets, because times have really changed.
For what it is worth, he was a perfect gentleman, we shook hands, and are now friends.
 
liljon said:
you have no idea what its like to be a "Real Gambler" . Situations like this is what causes pool players, gamblers to be late and not LilJon
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That ain`t real gambling.Real gambling is when u say `` I do`` to your bride infront of a priest & big crowd.:D
 
I don't see anything heroic in continually gambling down to your last dollar.

This is just poor money management, poor business.

I've known quite a few who've lived like this and they have a few thrills here and there but end up broke. No matter how much money falls into their hands, it quickly dissappears.

I hope lil'jon can do well and manage his finances such that he can enjoy a more secure future.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I don't see anything heroic in continually gambling down to your last dollar.

This is just poor money management, poor business.

I've known quite a few who've lived like this and they have a few thrills here and there but end up broke. No matter how much money falls into their hands, it quickly dissappears.

I hope lil'jon can do well and manage his finances such that he can enjoy a more secure future.[/QU Well said ...........................................
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vagabond said:
That ain`t real gambling.Real gambling is when u say `` I do`` to your bride infront of a priest & big crowd.:D
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You got THAT right. I tried to outrun the nuts twice on that score and went BUSTED. At least I got the lesson though.

John
 
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