Low deflection, perhaps it isn't so great after all?

I'll never drink the kool aid
Of all the LD shafts I have tried, theJacoby Edge Hybrid is my favorite. I have tried virtually all the other LD shafts on the market and I settle on this one. I like the tip, but honestly, when it comes to a replacement, I still find myself liking a triangle tip.
 
Of all the LD shafts I have tried, theJacoby Edge Hybrid is my favorite. I have tried virtually all the other LD shafts on the market and I settle on this one. I like the tip, but honestly, when it comes to a replacement, I still find myself liking a triangle tip.


I like and play Triangle tips as well but they will always be mounted on standard maple shafts from Tim Scruggs magical forest. I like deflection & know how to use it. I'll never drink the LD Kool Aid.
 
To the OP, imo your stroke might have something to do with it. You say you also have a snooker cue, well that is naturally low end mass because of the tip size and you don't mention any issues with that.

Greyghost is correct, LD shafts do not need to be hollow, solid ones give you more feedback.

Ok my opinion....The best shaft at any given time is the one that you are used to.
If you replace it, with an LD or normal shaft, there with be a period of relearning the new shaft.

LD Shaft v Normal shaft....one is not better than the other....they are different.

We all know deflection exists. So when we are not playing centre ball we need to do a calculation. Sometimes this is a conscious thing or sometimes a sub conscious thing, or a mixture.
Usually your calculations are slightly simpler with a LD shaft thats all.

If you can to the calculations you can play well with any shaft.

Perfect Pool does not exist!!
The advantage of an LD shaft is when you get a touch of unwanted english on the CB (because you are human, your tip has struck slightly the wrong spot or you have slightly cued accross the shot, so your calculation for deflection will be slightly wrong)
The cueball will now deflect slightly more than anticipated. Playing this shot with a LD shaft as opposed to a normal shaft might just be the difference between rattling a ball in the jaws and it just dropping in. IMO
 
Having spent hours upon hours working on my stroke, I have noticed several things about my shaft (Predator Z2) that are difficult to notice any other way. I'm talking about shooting straight in drawshots at various speeds on a snooker table (though I mainly use it for pool), slow rolling balls over and over again as well as shooting shots at ridiculously high speeds to find weaknesses.

I've come to the conclusion that this shaft is in fact costing me misses and matches! I should say that up until now I have been very happy with my cue/shaft combination, but having spent a lot of time with it (having used this for my main player, ever since it came out, and the Z before that) I've noticed that it's behaviour under certain conditions is less than predictable. Of course my level of play (and competition) has increased to the point where a single mistake will cost a lot more.

Slow rolls: I've noticed that, especially when tight against the cushion, playing softly, the shaft tends to bounce off the cueball rather than go through. That is in fact what it is designed to do with sidespin, but when shooting from the cushion or over a ball, it's not a good thing! You need a better stroke to avoid miscues with this shaft than with others with more endmass. I know about contact times etc, but I don't care if this is a result of pre-impact or at-impact effects. The results are there, at least for me. If you hit it perfectly, it won't matter, but with less than optimal strokes, a miscue may result! I know the downward press techniques etc, but still, you are getting this effect for free with a heavier front shaft.

Draw shots: This is where I was surprised. I videotaped myself directly from the front, shooting a hard drawshot (with the aim to scratch in the pocket behind the ball). One stroke in particular was near perfect, but the shafts behaviour was not! It was a powerful stroke in a straight line, but the shaft bent violently downwards, and was then kicked up into the air and out of my bridge (this was with light snooker balls and an open bridge), i was completely stationary with the bridgehand. While most shafts will do this to a degree, I was shocked by how violent the movement of this shaft was!

The same is true for powerful top spin shots(in reverse) but much less of a problem, especially since you don't get the rebound the same way.

The behavior of the shaft seems to be completely different with varying speeds, and even though my speed control is satisfactory (but a work in progress), I still feel that the erratic bending and bouncing of the shaft is lessening the feel and feedback. You never get the solid feeling of driving through the ball, as you would with a snooker cue for instance. Tactile feedback is important to me and others to guide our speed control. I think the erratic behavior of this and other shafts like it, is why nearly every top player I know stopped using them after a while. They changed to the 314, that has a bit more mass in the front. The speed control of the lighter z2 is just too inexact.

The lesser weight in the end is IMO decreasing the accuracy of tip placement on very slow, delicate shots, as you might need in 14.1.
If you have a difficult stretch shot over the rack, the small diameter may be helpful, but if your stance is slightly awkward, the low endmass makes the shot more difficult (accurately placing the tip when the tip is light). I find it easier to guide a heavier shaft (with more endmass) in a PERFECTLY straight and accurate line on these shots. The endmass is also impacting the balance of the cue in subtle ways.

I find that with this shaft, I need to hit certain shots with a closed bridge, that I would otherwise shoot with an open bridge (for the reasons previously mentioned). Being a snooker/pool player I don't like it.

I'm sure there will be a lot of hate from the lovers of these, and other ld-shafts, but these are merely my observations, not a physics term paper, nor a definitive work on cue playability. Also I've owned and used this shaft seemingly forever and always defended it, but I've finally realized several weaknesses.

Check out the latest video I posted in the 9b ghost thread.

I'm using a snooker stance and play with an open bridge. I also use a Z2 shaft.
 
The science of LD is real. It makes a difference, whether good or bad. Don't be upset that it didn't work for you, but rather be satisfied that you were able to pinpoint reasons why it didn't. Now you know without doubt that your specific game & style requires something different. Lots of sheep just do what others do & never think for themselves like you have. We test drive vehicles before we buy specifically for that reason, to find out if it's what we want. Unfortunately we don't have places to test drive cues & shafts, so it may cost you a couple hundred bucks to test a LD shaft.
 
The science of LD is real. It makes a difference, whether good or bad. Don't be upset that it didn't work for you, but rather be satisfied that you were able to pinpoint reasons why it didn't. Now you know without doubt that your specific game & style requires something different. Lots of sheep just do what others do & never think for themselves like you have. We test drive vehicles before we buy specifically for that reason, to find out if it's what we want. Unfortunately we don't have places to test drive cues & shafts, so it may cost you a couple hundred bucks to test a LD shaft.

This^^^^^^^^^^^

I think its also worth mentioning that what you are experiencing is the same thing I have experienced with a long pro taper 12mm maple shaft. LD is not the issue here IMO, but the the construction of the shaft probably is. The Z shafts have always felt whippy to me. IMO the more whip in the shaft the less consistent the shit. Try a mezz wx900 for a solid conical taper. Otherwise 12.75+ shafts are the nuts.
 
I don't think the Z2 is more flexible than a 314 because it has a conical taper vs the parallel "pro" taper of the 314. It is lighter in the front end. The same can be said for the two types of OB shafts.

That is why I like the extra inch for the smaller tip shaft. It moves the balance back to where it is for the 12.75 shaft.

I like all 3 of my OB shafts & they all have solid hits & I get good feel with them. OB shafts are NOT made the same as Predator shafts.

I have a 314 CAT shaft that was taken down to 12 mm & it is much much more fexible than my OB Pro @ 11.75 mm.

Different construction format & different tapers.

Two very good players in my area, one semi pro type & the other right behind him, both liked the OB Pro rather much compared to the Z shafts they both have. I think the semi pro got an OB Pro but is still using them both & I think it depends on the type of game that he is playing.

Anyway I don't think it really does any real good the make statements that are not apple to apple without an attached caveat of clarification.

Also, a full pendulum swing type stroke is not the same as a Piston or Piston-J Stroke nor is a sit in the cradle type connection the same as a more firm connection to cue.

I know it probably will not happen but I think it would be rather interesting to get greyghost & SP99 with Lamas on a table for about 3 hours... or more.

Best 2 All,
Rick
 
There may only be a few of us left, standard maple shaft dinosaurs who use squirt and appreciate it.



I like and play Triangle tips as well but they will always be mounted on standard maple shafts from Tim Scruggs magical forest. I like deflection & know how to use it. I'll never drink the LD Kool Aid.
 
LD shafts still yield squirt just less of it, hence the word LOW deflection.

CJ Wiley plays using the squirt for his version of the TOI method.

He was using NON LD shafts & he said that he would use different sized tip shafts depending on the table size.

Bigger tip for smaller tables & smaller tip for larger tables.

When I was trying his CTC & CTE only alignment method I was having a bit of trouble getting enough squirt for some shots so I just added the alignment between the CTC & CTE at the 1/4 line of the OB.

One can still use CB squirt with an LD shaft.

When I went to LD shafts, I made the adjustment almost immediately but it take about 3 or 4 sessions to become comfortable with it for ALL of the shots.

Best 2 All,
Rick
 
Always said I hated LD's, except the few years I spent trying them and fell for the hype, lies and bs.

Some of your reasons are just a few.

That LDs are better or somehow help your game is - in my opinion - the
biggest myth to be introduced to the pool wold in decades.
Actually probably since forever.

Do your self and your game a favor and unplug from the world of LDs
and you will enjoy getting better. Plus you will have so much more feel
for every shot. It's such a great feeling to play with a well made solid
maple shaft and really feel what you're doing.
Then going back from solid to LD you'll really notice the muted feel of
the LDs, like f___kn' with several condoms on at the same time.
I totally agree. And luckily I'm old enough to never have worn a condom, much less several. My women have always preferred me to deliver the stroke with a long, hard, stiff maple shaft. Where is trampsteamer when you need him?
 
OP did say he was using an LD shaft for SNOOKER. I do the same thing and haven't noticed this crazy miscuing effect too much with my OB shaft. I use a standard shaft for pool. While I don't care for the "dead" feel that LD shafts provide, I find that I have to adjust less when using them on the smaller balls and it helps with accuracy. I also hate the snooker cue tapers that I've tried. Also brass ferrules make no sense.
 
OP did say he was using an LD shaft for SNOOKER. I do the same thing and haven't noticed this crazy miscuing effect too much with my OB shaft. I use a standard shaft for pool. While I don't care for the "dead" feel that LD shafts provide, I find that I have to adjust less when using them on the smaller balls and it helps with accuracy. I also hate the snooker cue tapers that I've tried. Also brass ferrules make no sense.

I don't know the weight differential but the short brass ferrules are very thin walled. Maybe 1/32 of an inch.

I would GUESS that they were much lighter than the longer ivory pool cue ferrules & probably than the longer synthetic ones too.

Also ash is different than maple but I don't know much about that either.
 
I don't know the weight differential but the short brass ferrules are very thin walled. Maybe 1/32 of an inch.

I would GUESS that they were much lighter than the longer ivory pool cue ferrules & probably than the longer synthetic ones too.

Also ash is different than maple but I don't know much about that either.

English,
Weight or density of solid materials....no gas.:smile:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/density-solids-d_1265.html

Be well
 
Always said I hated LD's, except the few years I spent trying them and fell for the hype, lies and bs.

Some of your reasons are just a few.

That LDs are better or somehow help your game is - in my opinion - the
biggest myth to be introduced to the pool wold in decades.
Actually probably since forever.

Do your self and your game a favor and unplug from the world of LDs
and you will enjoy getting better. Plus you will have so much more feel
for every shot. It's such a great feeling to play with a well made solid
maple shaft and really feel what you're doing.
Then going back from solid to LD you'll really notice the muted feel of
the LDs, like f___kn' with several condoms on at the same time.

Seem's like you have some inconsistencies here. "Hype, lies and bs." Hmmm...there is definitely hype about LD shafts. Lies? What lies. They make the cueball squirt less when hit with english. Do you think this is true or false? As for bs, that's kinda vague.

But as for the aforementioned inconsistencies...it is difficult to tell if you are trying to suggest that LD shafts do *not* offer less cueball squirt, or if you are suggesting that the dull or muted feel common to many LD shafts is not worth this difference. The former would be a misinformed statement. They *do* offer less squirt. It is obvious and provable. Claiming otherwise would be foolish at this point. My primary obstacle to trying LD shafts, however, was the dull hit. I didn't care for it. It was different than what I was used to. However, the greatly improved accuracy I acquired more than made up for that difference. Also, once I learned how *the shaft I play with now* feels, the whole "feel" argument more or less breaks down. After finding the right cue, tip, joint screw, etc...I have come to a setup that I love that offers excellent feel.

It's funny...when I am playing a decent player and I see them get into a situation in which they have to spin the ball a lot to get shape, I find myself looking at their ferrule...to see what they are shooting with. For some strange reason, the guys with the old school standard maple shafts tend to miss the ball in those situations a lot more than the ones with LD shafts. This isn't scientific data, just a trend I've noticed. This is playing on 9' tables.

I guess you might need to ask yourself why the majority of top pros are using LD shafts if they are not good. At Snookers in Providence, RI, the weekly Wednesday tourney includes Mike Dechaine and 3 other pro level players. Of those 4, 3 use LD shafts. The 4th is a great player, but may play the lowest of those 4.

So if you are claiming that LD shafts don't do what everyone knows they do, then, well, you are just mistaken.

If you are saying that you can't play good or at a high level with LD shafts, you should come up to Snookers some time and find out how wrong that idea is.

Finally, if you are saying you don't like the feel of LD shafts, well then, you have yourself a point there. I agree most don't feel as good as a nice solid maple shaft.

Just curious where you're coming from...

KMRUNOUT
 
The science of LD is real. It makes a difference, whether good or bad. Don't be upset that it didn't work for you, but rather be satisfied that you were able to pinpoint reasons why it didn't. Now you know without doubt that your specific game & style requires something different. Lots of sheep just do what others do & never think for themselves like you have. We test drive vehicles before we buy specifically for that reason, to find out if it's what we want. Unfortunately we don't have places to test drive cues & shafts, so it may cost you a couple hundred bucks to test a LD shaft.

Great post! Very well said.

KMRUNOUT
 
I don't think the Z2 is more flexible than a 314 because it has a conical taper vs the parallel "pro" taper of the 314. It is lighter in the front end. The same can be said for the two types of OB shafts.

That is why I like the extra inch for the smaller tip shaft. It moves the balance back to where it is for the 12.75 shaft. Have you actually measured this? a 1.25mm off of a shaft thats @ 12.75mm just off the top of my head isn't going to shift the balance in a fashion that you or I could tell, much less back to where the 12.75 balance is.......in the 29" your removing negligible wood and its supposedly "shifting a balance noticebly" then your putting a shaft that has 1" more of wood at 11.5 mm.....well i just cut a piece @13mm of some maple 1" long.....taped it to the end of my cue and it shifted the balance 1/8" and it weighed 1.8 grams .....i balanced the cue on my calipers so i could mark exactly where it balanced at so it close enough for government work.....that said.....the extra 1" at 11.5mm roughly should weigh about 1.55 ish......oh and I did this on a 16oz cue....so on a normal weighted cue the shift of balance will be even less. This all taken into consideration....it doesn't move it back to where it is, and even if it did its such a small quantity that bet money your not noticing it one iota. Whats probably happening is your making contact sooner becuause of longer shaft and hitting the CB earlier and in a more consistent part of your stroke. This makes lots of sense for people who dont finish with a pendulum or "follow through" enough with a piston and end up "bunting" often.....which also makes you steer the cue/cb alot, always more power than is necessary because of deceleration compensation.

I like all 3 of my OB shafts & they all have solid hits & I get good feel with them. OB shafts are NOT made the same as Predator shafts.

I have a 314 CAT shaft that was taken down to 12 mm & it is much much more fexible than my OB Pro @ 11.75 mm.

Different construction format & different tapers.

Two very good players in my area, one semi pro type & the other right behind him, both liked the OB Pro rather much compared to the Z shafts they both have. I think the semi pro got an OB Pro but is still using them both & I think it depends on the type of game that he is playing.

Anyway I don't think it really does any real good the make statements that are not apple to apple without an attached caveat of clarification.

Also, a full pendulum swing type stroke is not the same as a Piston or Piston-J Stroke nor is a sit in the cradle type connection the same as a more firm connection to cue. (very very true!!!!! and love the word "cradle":thumbup:)

I know it probably will not happen but I think it would be rather interesting to get greyghost & SP99 with Lamas on a table for about 3 hours... or more.
(that would be pretty awesome lol!)

Best 2 All,
Rick

where in the heck do SP99 and Lamas live around anyways? I'm in south Louisiana....and still go around from time to time :)
 
I don't know the weight differential but the short brass ferrules are very thin walled. Maybe 1/32 of an inch.

I would GUESS that they were much lighter than the longer ivory pool cue ferrules & probably than the longer synthetic ones too.

Also ash is different than maple but I don't know much about that either.

Good points. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

It's one of those things that is tough to quantify. I think brass has mostly survived because those Brits love to stick to their traditions. I don't want to get too off topic, but the tip sizes, taper, and ball sizes must also be a factor (think relative to pool equipment sizes).

Now that I think about it, I did miscue a couple times during my last snooker game. I will have to practice more thoroughly with the OB shaft. For me it feels like I'm playing with a standard maple shaft going from pool to snooker with LD. I can't use LD on pool tables though.
 
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I played with solid maple for almost 20 years before trying as many different brands and styles of "LD" shafts as I could. I can describe the characteristics of each and similarities between difference brands and engineering. I'll scream to the heavens repeating the same shit I've been saying for the past six months. The OB plus Classic & Classic pro shafts are absolutely fantastic.

When I initially tested the original OB construction years ago I thought they were the biggest piles of garbage I had ever laid my eyes on. OB has now created a shaft that hits like solid maple and is also stiff. Although the "LD" properties are not as noticeable as you will find with Predator, I think most people would agree that's a very good thing.

Another poster had mentioned the Jacoby Edge and I would agree the Jacoby shafts also play very well. For me it's more about radial consistency rather than low deflection.
 
Seem's like you have some inconsistencies here. "Hype, lies and bs." Hmmm...there is definitely hype about LD shafts. Lies? What lies. They make the cueball squirt less when hit with english. Do you think this is true or false? As for bs, that's kinda vague.

But as for the aforementioned inconsistencies...it is difficult to tell if you are trying to suggest that LD shafts do *not* offer less cueball squirt, or if you are suggesting that the dull or muted feel common to many LD shafts is not worth this difference. The former would be a misinformed statement. They *do* offer less squirt. It is obvious and provable. Claiming otherwise would be foolish at this point. My primary obstacle to trying LD shafts, however, was the dull hit. I didn't care for it. It was different than what I was used to. However, the greatly improved accuracy I acquired more than made up for that difference. Also, once I learned how *the shaft I play with now* feels, the whole "feel" argument more or less breaks down. After finding the right cue, tip, joint screw, etc...I have come to a setup that I love that offers excellent feel.

It's funny...when I am playing a decent player and I see them get into a situation in which they have to spin the ball a lot to get shape, I find myself looking at their ferrule...to see what they are shooting with. For some strange reason, the guys with the old school standard maple shafts tend to miss the ball in those situations a lot more than the ones with LD shafts. This isn't scientific data, just a trend I've noticed. This is playing on 9' tables.

I guess you might need to ask yourself why the majority of top pros are using LD shafts if they are not good. At Snookers in Providence, RI, the weekly Wednesday tourney includes Mike Dechaine and 3 other pro level players. Of those 4, 3 use LD shafts. The 4th is a great player, but may play the lowest of those 4.

So if you are claiming that LD shafts don't do what everyone knows they do, then, well, you are just mistaken.

If you are saying that you can't play good or at a high level with LD shafts, you should come up to Snookers some time and find out how wrong that idea is.

Finally, if you are saying you don't like the feel of LD shafts, well then, you have yourself a point there. I agree most don't feel as good as a nice solid maple shaft.

Just curious where you're coming from...

KMRUNOUT

Great post :thumbup:
 
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