Low deflection shafts and higher end custom cues
- Thread starter No Limit
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I have the STR8 pool belt, which is worth more??
You need to play with the setup that gives you the most confidence.
We can talk all day about construction, glue, aging, tapering, deflection, and squirt. But at the end of the day it's what you like: the feel of the shaft, how it looks to you, the sound it makes, the feedback it gives you, and whether it makes (or you think it makes) the balls do what you want them to.
A word of caution for the more novice players: yes, you may think that a certain shaft, ferrule, taper, tip, shaft/butt combo gives you your besestest performance. But appreciating and evaluating performance -- when it comes to pool -- is an acquired taste that takes time to refine. It's something you come to appreciate as you learn the nuances and as you mature as a player. Not unlike the beginning wine quaffer who starts out thinking that white zin is God's gift to man, in due course you may come to discover their are more refined pleasures when it comes to the world of the grape. Same with pool cues and specifically shafts.
When they first came out in the 90's I was all over the 314s. I was, after all, a man of science. Not an individual hidebound by tradition and lore. I believed that there could be advances made when it came to many of the technologies we all can too easily become accustomed and devoted to. IOW, i was always willing to leap off a cliff in the name of science (anyone remember the lawn mower called the Fly-Mow
And so I eventually ended up owning three Predator shafts and played with them exclusively for several years. And then, one day for no good reason, I pulled out one of the 4.3 ounce ivory-ferruled shafts that came with the very nice Schon I was playing with at the time. A week later I sold all my 314s and have never looked back. To me, the 314 always felt like I was hitting the balls with a soggy noodle -- going off the cue ball, more than going through it. The Schon shaft felt, to me, like it was going through the ball. And the sound was different too, as was "the hit," feeling much more solid and wholesome to me.
Now, admittedly, I grew up playing with ivory-ferruled shafts. So maybe it's just what you're used to. Certainly there can be no disputing that there is something special about a 20 year-old shaft that has been carefully turned down by the cue maker every few years, as well as the question of what you really end up playing with when you throw out the taper, ferrule, feel, hit, deflection, and balance that the original cue maker intended.
So like I said: play with what you like and what gives you the most confidence. Once you're on the table not much else matters.
Lou Figueroa
We can talk all day about construction, glue, aging, tapering, deflection, and squirt. But at the end of the day it's what you like: the feel of the shaft, how it looks to you, the sound it makes, the feedback it gives you, and whether it makes (or you think it makes) the balls do what you want them to.
A word of caution for the more novice players: yes, you may think that a certain shaft, ferrule, taper, tip, shaft/butt combo gives you your besestest performance. But appreciating and evaluating performance -- when it comes to pool -- is an acquired taste that takes time to refine. It's something you come to appreciate as you learn the nuances and as you mature as a player. Not unlike the beginning wine quaffer who starts out thinking that white zin is God's gift to man, in due course you may come to discover their are more refined pleasures when it comes to the world of the grape. Same with pool cues and specifically shafts.
When they first came out in the 90's I was all over the 314s. I was, after all, a man of science. Not an individual hidebound by tradition and lore. I believed that there could be advances made when it came to many of the technologies we all can too easily become accustomed and devoted to. IOW, i was always willing to leap off a cliff in the name of science (anyone remember the lawn mower called the Fly-Mow
And so I eventually ended up owning three Predator shafts and played with them exclusively for several years. And then, one day for no good reason, I pulled out one of the 4.3 ounce ivory-ferruled shafts that came with the very nice Schon I was playing with at the time. A week later I sold all my 314s and have never looked back. To me, the 314 always felt like I was hitting the balls with a soggy noodle -- going off the cue ball, more than going through it. The Schon shaft felt, to me, like it was going through the ball. And the sound was different too, as was "the hit," feeling much more solid and wholesome to me.
Now, admittedly, I grew up playing with ivory-ferruled shafts. So maybe it's just what you're used to. Certainly there can be no disputing that there is something special about a 20 year-old shaft that has been carefully turned down by the cue maker every few years, as well as the question of what you really end up playing with when you throw out the taper, ferrule, feel, hit, deflection, and balance that the original cue maker intended.
So like I said: play with what you like and what gives you the most confidence. Once you're on the table not much else matters.
Lou Figueroa
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Couldn't agree more. This makes a significant difference in the feel of the hit. On my Gilbert cue, I have a 314-2 that was a blank that Andy made the joint for, and then I have a 314-2 off the shelf. The Gilbert joint definitely hits more true to the original Gilbert shaft. This is *probably* a good thing, but ironically I'm playing with the off the shelf one (probably because of the tip I like on there).
Very good advice though from Celtic.
KMRUNOUT
Could be. I certainly don't change my bridge length, so maybe the 314-2 "pivot point" is more where it should be for my stroke.
KMRUNOUT
I agree with you here *mostly*. I think it could be argued that there are objective differences (observable and measurable) in the qualities of the cues that contribute to hit (construction, resultant vibration characteristics, etc.) While the hit does not directly effect performance, one could argue that the feedback produced by a cue with a "good" hit might offer the shooter valuable information. This information could contribute to an increased confidence and/or a slow but steady improvement resulting from the careful observation of that feedback.
This could be considered a performance benefit. I suppose it could be argued from this standpoint that (assuming we agree) that the Predator shaft changes or reduces some of this vibration based info, that it could take away from the potential benefit of a custom cue with the original high quality maple shaft.
Definitely playing devil's advocate here, as I firmly believe the differences in squirt contribute FAR more to a cues playability.
One interesting note: I played with a Kersenbrock (spelling?) (maybe it was a Southwest, but I don't think so). It had some old original micarta ferrule, and a relatively slim taper. That thing hit so wonderfully, and I swear it is one of the very few cues with which I didn't seem to need any adjustments in aim from my Predator...talk about the best of both worlds!
KMRUNOUT
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You need to play with the setup that gives you the most confidence.
We can talk all day about construction, glue, aging, tapering, deflection, and squirt. But at the end of the day it's what you like: the feel of the shaft, how it looks to you, the sound it makes, the feedback it gives you, and whether it makes (or you think it makes) the balls do what you want them to.
A word of caution for the more novice players: yes, you may think that a certain shaft, ferrule, taper, tip, shaft/butt combo gives you your besestest performance. But appreciating and evaluating performance -- when it comes to pool -- is an acquired taste that takes time to refine. It's something you come to appreciate as you learn the nuances and as you mature as a player. Not unlike the beginning wine quaffer who starts out thinking that white zin is God's gift to man, in due course you may come to discover their are more refined pleasures when it comes to the world of the grape. Same with pool cues and specifically shafts.
When they first came out in the 90's I was all over the 314s. I was, after all, a man of science. Not an individual hidebound by tradition and lore. I believed that there could be advances made when it came to many of the technologies we all can too easily become accustomed and devoted to. IOW, i was always willing to leap off a cliff in the name of science (anyone remember the lawn mower called the Fly-Mow
And so I eventually ended up owning three Predator shafts and played with them exclusively for several years. And then, one day for no good reason, I pulled out one of the 4.3 ounce ivory-ferruled shafts that came with the very nice Schon I was playing with at the time. A week later I sold all my 314s and have never looked back. To me, the 314 always felt like I was hitting the balls with a soggy noodle -- going off the cue ball, more than going through it. The Schon shaft felt, to me, like it was going through the ball. And the sound was different too, as was "the hit," feeling much more solid and wholesome to me.
Now, admittedly, I grew up playing with ivory-ferruled shafts. So maybe it's just what you're used to. Certainly there can be no disputing that there is something special about a 20 year-old shaft that has been carefully turned down by the cue maker every few years, as well as the question of what you really end up playing with when you throw out the taper, ferrule, feel, hit, deflection, and balance that the original cue maker intended.
So like I said: play with what you like and what gives you the most confidence. Once you're on the table not much else matters.
Lou Figueroa
Best post in this thread so far imho. Very well stated. Who can argue with this lol?
KMRUNOUT
And.....this is the best paragraph thus far!!! It took me THOUSANDS of hit balls and more than too many cue/shaft combinations until I realized what worked best for me.
Maniac
OK. But "personal objective experience" doesn't compute for me. What I mean by "objective" is qualities that everybody sees and measures the same way. The amount of deflection is an example. The "feel" of the hit is not an example because it's "measured" differently by different players. I have a feeling that "personal objective experience" is more personal than objective when it comes to "hit".
pj
chgo
The last Cue built for me by Alex Brick has (2) matching 30" Dominator Shafts and it plays great. A very stiff hit and just the way I like it.
Tom Coker recently completed a Titleist Conversion for me which came with a Shaft made from 100+ yr. old Bowling Alley Maple. It is very stiff and plays as good as any laminated shaft I have owned.
Tom Coker recently completed a Titleist Conversion for me which came with a Shaft made from 100+ yr. old Bowling Alley Maple. It is very stiff and plays as good as any laminated shaft I have owned.
As mentioned above vibration characteristics such as resonance and the duration of the vibration are two characteristics which can and do have a part to play in the "feel" or "hit" of a cue. Those could easily be measured and variation between cue types in these areas would be present. It is no less a physical characteristic of a cue then the amount of deflection a cue puts on the cueball. There are other factors, but there is no point making a list of all of the physical factors that could play a role in what people perceive as a "good hit".
It's tough to pin down, but most people would agree that there is a certain satisfying je ne sais qua when you close the door of a luxury car, or robust sound from the engine compartment and feel in the gear shift as you take a high performance vehicle for a spin.
In both cases it would be tough to identify exactly what it is that makes you smile -- but most people would agree that it is not the same as driving a Prius.
Lou Figueroa
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"What people perceive as" is the key phrase there. We can't pin any objective performance characteristic on hit (how accurately we can shoot, how much spin we can produce). It's purely aesthetic preference.
By contrast, the amount of deflection is a clear performance characteristic that we can put our finger on - we might prefer different amounts, but that preference is based clearly on measurable performance differences.
Sure, but those things are easily defined and clearly indicate objective performance advantages (speed, handling). The "hit" of an expensive cue indicates nothing about how well it performs. And I don't agree that an expensive cue, even one with a "renowned hit", is necessarily higher performing.
pj
chgo
No, you are simply completely ignoring the point on vibration characteristics of cues, despite the fact that you quoted that. Vibration characteristics are not aesthetic, they are a physical property of the cue and they DO alter the way a cue will feel at contact with the cueball and thus alter what people know as "the hit". The physical properties of a cue that affect vibration at contact with the cueball are not aesthetic, they have diddly squat to do with the "looks" of the cue and they could certainly be tested. Vibration characteristics are objective.
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Predator Shafts
Custom Cue maker have no problems with using Predator shafts...at least the 3 I have asked:
Jerry McWorter matched joint rings and actually turned down the Predator shafts for me (His Butt diameter is thinner than most).
Jerry Rauenzahn matched joint rings on Predator shafts for the last 3 cues I bought from him.
Cory Barnhart just did the same for me and is changing a joint ring out for me right now for one of his custom cues.
Custom Cue maker have no problems with using Predator shafts...at least the 3 I have asked:
Jerry McWorter matched joint rings and actually turned down the Predator shafts for me (His Butt diameter is thinner than most).
Jerry Rauenzahn matched joint rings on Predator shafts for the last 3 cues I bought from him.
Cory Barnhart just did the same for me and is changing a joint ring out for me right now for one of his custom cues.
Agree completely. However, once you get to the idea of calling that set of characteristics "good", that is where the subjective human position comes in. This is because many people prefer a different kind of hit. For some no vibration and a very dead cue is desirable. For others, they want to hear the cue sing. These are likely different sets of vibration characteristics. I do agree that those characteristics can be objectively measured, though I doubt there is anything about those characteristics that make them objectively "good".
Good posts on this so far!!
KMRUNOUT
This is true. What Patrick is saying, and I agree with, is that the *perception* of those characteristics is NOT objective. Two people will likely perceive them differently. Also, pronouncing a "hit" as good or bad is also a subjective thing. I think that is where you guys are missing each other.
KMRUNOUT
They're aesthetic in that they're a matter of taste and don't have any objective impact on the cue's performance.
pj
chgo