Luther Lassiter's mechanics
- Thread starter Terry Ardeno
- Start date
Terry Ardeno said:I've stated on here many times that in my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the best 9 baller to have ever played this game. In my opinion, the top 3 are Lassiter, Strickland & Sigel. (For best all around to have ever played, Reys & then Varner get my vote). Anyway, back to Lassiter...
I have tapes of him in those "Legends" matches from the early 1980's. He was 63 when he was playing on the one I'm referencing. At 63, his shotmaking was still sharp. His stroke and mechanics look so awkward, yet, because he's ingrained those particular mechanics into his muscle memory, he has what's called a repeatable stroke. His is not one that most instructors would teach. He has a short back stroke, but not as short as Hopkins'. When he shoots, he has the unique habit of very quickly twisting his bridge up up and out to his left from the table. In other words, instead of his head jumping up, his bridge hand jumps up! He addresses the ball rather high by today's standards, where lots of players have their chin resting on the shaft during their strokes. On his break, he appears to lose his balance and again, his arm flings out to his left. And his bridge consists of what appears to be a very looping and loose finger barely around the shaft of his cue. Yet, despite less than perfect mechanics, he hardly ever misses a ball.
I have watched these tapes so many times over the years. I love seeing how the pros shoot and approach their shots. I can hardly imagine how great a shot maker he was in his prime, say the 1940's-1970.
I think what made him great was he really loved pool. He also built his game around action, ie, if he missed, he didn't eat or pay his bills. I think beside honing his game, that constant tension may have made him have some of the physical quirks and nervous habits that he and any other player accumulates or develops over the years. But, he had a repeatable stroke that he trusted in.
Another quick point here is look at all the unique strokes that the various pro players have. If you could somehow darken them out and just show their silhouettes, I think many of us could recognize who was shooting just by their particular mechanics and strokes.
So, as far as strokes go, one size does not fit all. But, we already know that, right?
If you look at all the old time players. Lassiter, Mosconi, Fats, Crane etc., they all addressed the ball much higher over the cue than todays players... and personally, I can see the angles better with my head higher.
Terry Ardeno said:Buddy Hall says in the book "Rags to Rifleman" that Lassiter was the best 9 baller he ever saw.
Also, there is so much to your post that I would like to comment on. I'll just ask this one question regarding Jose....he "may have been the 2nd best pool player" you ever saw? Huh??? Better than Strickland, Sigel, Efren??? Based on what, Jay? List his tournament credentials with the other super-star players. His don't match up at all. Gambling? You would take Parica over, say, Willis, gambling at 9 ball? Unless you were there for every match he ever won, you and I both know that gambling stories often grow to gambling legend and folk lore over time. Not diminsihing Parica's skills at all, but 2nd G.O.A.T is really flattering, don't you think? Nick Varner has WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in 14.1, 9 ball, 8 ball, one pocket and banks. Yet, you have Parica better than even Nick?
It's been a long, long time since I disagreed with you my friend, but wow!
I'm having chest pains
By the way, would you rank Lassiter in the top what of all time 9 ballers?
(Where is Fatboy when I need him....
No, even better than that (they may be in cahoots), I can't wait till Freddy wakes up...
How about this...let's start a poll on a new thread. "Who was the better pool player, Lassiter or Parica?" But that may not work either because so many probably don't even know who he was. Which is very sad.
Sorry to upset you Terry, but it is just that, my opinion. If Strickland, Sigel and Efren had to play Parica for the cash in a long session in the 1980's, he would have devoured them all. He did beat all of them by the way. You could have lined them up and let him play them 1,2,3. He was that strong.
I'm not talking about tournaments here, just who played the best IMO.
Parica did win his share of tournaments back then as well. But he only played a few because of travel restrictions. If you want to know why I feel this way, it is because Jose had cue ball control equal to Efren, had a stroke like Earl, and missed as few as Sigel. He had all their best qualities rolled into one. And he had more heart than all three put together. For the cheese! He had a big break back then too. I love Efren and he is a great, great player, but some of us know how it was between them in the Philipines before they came over here. Jose was "Amang", the MAN!
I saw them all play Terry and I was VERY impressed by what I saw Jose do in the 80's and 90's. Did you know NO ONE would play him for money the first 10 to 15 years he was over here. All the top players KNEW they couldn't beat him. Even Buddy left this one guy alone. Jose barred no one!
He is not my best friend either. I just call them like I see them. Don Willis in his prime would have ducked this guy too. He wasn't a dummy.
Okay, there was two guys who may have played good enough to play Parica if they had lived in the same era. George Rood and Harold Worst. Both played great, never missed and had strong hearts. Lassiter also could play "no miss" 9-Ball. If I could pick one guy to battle Parica it would have to be Worst. He had just as much heart, and an even bigger stroke. He had the ability to raise his game to whatever level he needed to win.
As far as Lassiter goes, he is on my top three or four all time 9-Ballers. He would have played Jose if they had lived in the same era, and could have given him a great game. But Jose had more ability overall IMO. They had very different styles. Jose was more run and gun, and Lassiter was a little more careful. Both worked for them, but in a confrontation, I would have taken Jose. He was scary good!
Marvel said:
I was referring to Denny Searcy.
Good point here. If Efren had played in the "push out" era, no one would have had a chance with him. Maybe only Lassiter and Worst could have won matches with him. It would have been Efren, Worst and Lassiter, and then Kelly, Sigel and Buddy. This is before Earl came along. When Earl started stringing those racks, everything changed!
No question that Efren is and has been the best player for a long time. Best of all time, I'm not so sure. Best ever at One Pocket (modern era) has to be Ronnie and Efren. Best ever at Rotation probably Efren here as well. Best ever at Ten Ball, I call it a draw between Efren and Jose. Best ever at Eight Ball, Efren again.
If you ever saw Harold Worst play (any game) you wouldn't be so quick to rate Efren over him. He was a MONSTER! He might have eaten Efren! We'll never know.
Bigjohn said:
It's a different game with the fast cloth. You need more accuracy today, and a better touch. Back in the days of slow cloth, a big stroke was required to move the cue ball around. You could muster more power from a slightly more upright stance. On real close or precise shots, the old timers would get down over the cue as well sometimes.
Marvel said:
Definitely! Mosconi wouldn't have had a prayer with him or Bugs. He wasn't even in the top ten at Banks.
Terry Ardeno said:
The belt just holds up the pants!
Luther Lassiter
I saw Lassiter play on several different occasions in the 60's and the guy was always on. The only time I remember him losing was when he was frozen out of a rack and didn't get a shot. One of the things that sticks in my mind about him was his arms. His biceps were about the size of a 12 year old girls! He had a little pot belly and didn't look like he could stand up for more than one game but yet he would play all night and be ready to go after a quick nap in a pool room chair.
One year I saw him and every other big name play in some kind of U.S. Championship (?) in Long Beach, California in 1966 (?). I believe Joe Balsis won the 9-ball portion of the tournament and Richie Florence won most of the money in the back room. They had the same tournament two years in a row there and I think it was 66 & 67.
After each tournament we had an influx of big names come through Fresno, California looking for some money. One day I noticed this young guy banging balls around on one of the tables and the poor kid couldn't make a shot. I was thinking I might get him to put up some cash when I finally realized I had just seen him the week before in Long Beach and his name came back to me. It was Richie Florence and when I walked up to him and said it looked like his game had dropped off a little since Long Beach he just laughed and said "you got me" and asked about the action in town. He was a very pleasant guy and came to Fresno several times over the years. Ronnie Allen came through a couple of days later and stayed there for 3 days giving up everything but money. That guy could play everything but his one pocket skills were unreal. For about an hour one day he showed his skills by making or lagging very close every shot for the corner pocket we could think of presenting to him. He did 1-5 rails, caroms, combos, cuts, you name it. I never saw anything like that before and not since then. We had a House Guy named Rocky Antenucci that played everybody coming through from about 1960 until 2005 and held his own with most people on the 9-ball table but fell off somewhat on the other games. He's now 76 years old and has cancer but on some days he's still the baddest man in town. He has some great stories about all these guys that played from the late 50's until the 90's when the traveling hustlers mostly quit the road. I believe that in that period every player that I ever heard of came through Fresno going back and forth from SF to LA and back. It was truly a pleasure to see them play and even to play with them on occasion.
I saw Lassiter play on several different occasions in the 60's and the guy was always on. The only time I remember him losing was when he was frozen out of a rack and didn't get a shot. One of the things that sticks in my mind about him was his arms. His biceps were about the size of a 12 year old girls! He had a little pot belly and didn't look like he could stand up for more than one game but yet he would play all night and be ready to go after a quick nap in a pool room chair.
One year I saw him and every other big name play in some kind of U.S. Championship (?) in Long Beach, California in 1966 (?). I believe Joe Balsis won the 9-ball portion of the tournament and Richie Florence won most of the money in the back room. They had the same tournament two years in a row there and I think it was 66 & 67.
After each tournament we had an influx of big names come through Fresno, California looking for some money. One day I noticed this young guy banging balls around on one of the tables and the poor kid couldn't make a shot. I was thinking I might get him to put up some cash when I finally realized I had just seen him the week before in Long Beach and his name came back to me. It was Richie Florence and when I walked up to him and said it looked like his game had dropped off a little since Long Beach he just laughed and said "you got me" and asked about the action in town. He was a very pleasant guy and came to Fresno several times over the years. Ronnie Allen came through a couple of days later and stayed there for 3 days giving up everything but money. That guy could play everything but his one pocket skills were unreal. For about an hour one day he showed his skills by making or lagging very close every shot for the corner pocket we could think of presenting to him. He did 1-5 rails, caroms, combos, cuts, you name it. I never saw anything like that before and not since then. We had a House Guy named Rocky Antenucci that played everybody coming through from about 1960 until 2005 and held his own with most people on the 9-ball table but fell off somewhat on the other games. He's now 76 years old and has cancer but on some days he's still the baddest man in town. He has some great stories about all these guys that played from the late 50's until the 90's when the traveling hustlers mostly quit the road. I believe that in that period every player that I ever heard of came through Fresno going back and forth from SF to LA and back. It was truly a pleasure to see them play and even to play with them on occasion.
PastPrime said:
I played Rocky, Courteous Kirk and Little George all on the same day back in the 70's and beat them all. True story! And George was the best of the three. A guy named Jerry Jamison was probably the best player to come out of Fresno. Just ask Rocky about him, before the drugs got him.
I saw Lassiter many times and he had a goofy stroke. It was like 1 inch long and he did them in little 4 or 5 stroke bursts maybe 4 or 5 times for a total or as many as 25 strokes a shot. It could be awful to watch at times. Another weird thing, players with strange habits or quirks can be bad to watch. You seem, for some reason, to pick up their habits and your game can go down hill. I was around Danny DiLiberto for a while and in no time I picked up his stroke and funny stance and could not make a ball after a while. I swear, it took me a good month to try to get back to being myself. Allen Hopkins is another good example, you don't want to pick up his fundamentals if you can help it. On the other side of the coin, a player like Ray Martin is so smooth you feel like you can get in stroke by just watching him.Terry Ardeno said:I've stated on here many times that in my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the best 9 baller to have ever played this game. In my opinion, the top 3 are Lassiter, Strickland & Sigel. (For best all around to have ever played, Reys & then Varner get my vote). Anyway, back to Lassiter...
I have tapes of him in those "Legends" matches from the early 1980's. He was 63 when he was playing on the one I'm referencing. At 63, his shotmaking was still sharp. His stroke and mechanics look so awkward, yet, because he's ingrained those particular mechanics into his muscle memory, he has what's called a repeatable stroke. His is not one that most instructors would teach. He has a short back stroke, but not as short as Hopkins'. When he shoots, he has the unique habit of very quickly twisting his bridge up up and out to his left from the table. In other words, instead of his head jumping up, his bridge hand jumps up! He addresses the ball rather high by today's standards, where lots of players have their chin resting on the shaft during their strokes. On his break, he appears to lose his balance and again, his arm flings out to his left. And his bridge consists of what appears to be a very looping and loose finger barely around the shaft of his cue. Yet, despite less than perfect mechanics, he hardly ever misses a ball.
I have watched these tapes so many times over the years. I love seeing how the pros shoot and approach their shots. I can hardly imagine how great a shot maker he was in his prime, say the 1940's-1970.
I think what made him great was he really loved pool. He also built his game around action, ie, if he missed, he didn't eat or pay his bills. I think beside honing his game, that constant tension may have made him have some of the physical quirks and nervous habits that he and any other player accumulates or develops over the years. But, he had a repeatable stroke that he trusted in.
Another quick point here is look at all the unique strokes that the various pro players have. If you could somehow darken them out and just show their silhouettes, I think many of us could recognize who was shooting just by their particular mechanics and strokes.
So, as far as strokes go, one size does not fit all. But, we already know that, right?
daniel said:
Rep for thatthe guy comes on here with Cole this and Cole that but can't spell his name right
Here's a story about George Rood, talking with a guy at onePocket.org. George Rood is still alive & teaching in Ohio. He is a most fantastic man & a very fine gentleman. He is 90 or more years old.
GR: I played with a lot of all-time great players. I played well, but at other games. I played a lot of times with Mosconi; 11 exhibitions I can remember. I played with Irving Crane, Erwin Rudolph, Joe Procita, Andrew Ponzi, Ralph Greenleaf?
1P: Wow, Greenleaf!
GR: I played with all those top players. We played Straight Pool mostly. I also played Jimmy Caras, Arthur [?Babe?] Cranfield, Andrew St. Jean and Willie Hoppe. One achievement I am very proud of was during a Straight Pool money match. I was playing a weaker player and the spot was that he played regular Straight Pool, while I played ?fifty no count?. Any time I ran less than fifty balls I received credit for none. This particular day I had eleven runs of a hundred or more.
1P: Wow; most of us dream of doing that once in our lifetime! Is, or was, Straight Pool your main game?
GR: No, 9-Ball was. At one time I was considered the best 9-Ball player in the world; that included the guys that you hear about, like Luther Lassiter.
1P: And Eddie Taylor?
GR: I beat both Lassiter and Taylor.
1P: That is pretty heavyweight company.
GR: I played with a lot of all-time great players. I played well, but at other games. I played a lot of times with Mosconi; 11 exhibitions I can remember. I played with Irving Crane, Erwin Rudolph, Joe Procita, Andrew Ponzi, Ralph Greenleaf?
1P: Wow, Greenleaf!
GR: I played with all those top players. We played Straight Pool mostly. I also played Jimmy Caras, Arthur [?Babe?] Cranfield, Andrew St. Jean and Willie Hoppe. One achievement I am very proud of was during a Straight Pool money match. I was playing a weaker player and the spot was that he played regular Straight Pool, while I played ?fifty no count?. Any time I ran less than fifty balls I received credit for none. This particular day I had eleven runs of a hundred or more.
1P: Wow; most of us dream of doing that once in our lifetime! Is, or was, Straight Pool your main game?
GR: No, 9-Ball was. At one time I was considered the best 9-Ball player in the world; that included the guys that you hear about, like Luther Lassiter.
1P: And Eddie Taylor?
GR: I beat both Lassiter and Taylor.
1P: That is pretty heavyweight company.
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Terry Ardeno said:I've stated on here many times that in my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the best 9 baller to have ever played this game. In my opinion, the top 3 are Lassiter, Strickland & Sigel. (For best all around to have ever played, Reys & then Varner get my vote). Anyway, back to Lassiter...
I have tapes of him in those "Legends" matches from the early 1980's. He was 63 when he was playing on the one I'm referencing. At 63, his shotmaking was still sharp. His stroke and mechanics look so awkward, yet, because he's ingrained those particular mechanics into his muscle memory, he has what's called a repeatable stroke. His is not one that most instructors would teach. He has a short back stroke, but not as short as Hopkins'. When he shoots, he has the unique habit of very quickly twisting his bridge up up and out to his left from the table. In other words, instead of his head jumping up, his bridge hand jumps up! He addresses the ball rather high by today's standards, where lots of players have their chin resting on the shaft during their strokes. On his break, he appears to lose his balance and again, his arm flings out to his left. And his bridge consists of what appears to be a very looping and loose finger barely around the shaft of his cue. Yet, despite less than perfect mechanics, he hardly ever misses a ball.
I have watched these tapes so many times over the years. I love seeing how the pros shoot and approach their shots. I can hardly imagine how great a shot maker he was in his prime, say the 1940's-1970.
I think what made him great was he really loved pool. He also built his game around action, ie, if he missed, he didn't eat or pay his bills. I think beside honing his game, that constant tension may have made him have some of the physical quirks and nervous habits that he and any other player accumulates or develops over the years. But, he had a repeatable stroke that he trusted in.
Another quick point here is look at all the unique strokes that the various pro players have. If you could somehow darken them out and just show their silhouettes, I think many of us could recognize who was shooting just by their particular mechanics and strokes.
So, as far as strokes go, one size does not fit all. But, we already know that, right?
Terry, when you say that Luther was the best 9 baller to play the game, what are you basing your decision on
Is this based on quantifying the amount of money he won or the quantity of tournaments he won When you see people like Efren and Earl play (in their prime), I just can't see how anyone could be play any better
Lol...All the above!cuetechustla said:Terry, when you say that Luther was the best 9 baller to play the game, what are you basing your decision on
When you see people like Efren and Earl play (in their prime), I just can't see how anyone could be play any better
Not to mention that the opinions of most of the great players of that era who've also played in the current one back up his opinion of Luther being arguably the greatest 9-baller ever.
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Terry Ardeno said:So, as far as strokes go, one size does not fit all. But, we already know that, right?
Hi Terry,
I fully agree with you but all too often players use that logic to avoid going to the time and/or expense of learning "classic" pool mechanics used by the vast majority of top players.
Certainly, there are variations even amoung the majority of players and getting into a discussion of what constitutes "classic mechanics" is beyond the scope of this thread.
But in the case of golfer, Jim Furyk or example, if he ever gets into teaching, I doubt he would EVER recommend his stroke to anyone else.
So, to say (and I know you are not saying) that since Lassiter's mechanics are weird and Hopkins' mechanics are weird...and they are both weird in different ways...therefore, just stroke it any way you want and that's fine.
IMHO, all those attempting to learn to shoot pool need to realize that champions are almost freaks of nature in terms of their eye/hand/muscle coordination and are able to REPEAT even the most strange strokes with amazing consistency.
For the rest of us, learning mechanics that give us the best opportunity of being able to repeat our strokes consistently is why something resembling "classic" mechanics is such a good idea.
Regards,
Jim
Pushout said:
Rempe stood alone IMHO when it came to cutting a ball along the short rail and going up and down table 4 rails with position within 3 -4" of where he wanted. The ball would usually never touch the rail and he would cut a 70 degree + angle and never miss a one if he played all night. His fundamentals, you could take em to the bank$$$, also, he was good under pressure.
cuetechustla said:Terry, when you say that Luther was the best 9 baller to play the game, what are you basing your decision on
When you see people like Efren and Earl play (in their prime), I just can't see how anyone could be play any better
Cuetechustla,
You asked a very good question and I would like to explain why, in my opinion, Lassiter was the best at 9 ball.
First, Lassiter was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But, Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
This is a lot of fun. Don't you agree?
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