Awesome Posts, Bb!!!!
Luther "Wimpy" Lassiter - best ever 9-ball???
- Thread starter dirtypool40
- Start date
You'll get it when you're older....
I heard that story during Earls' exhibition here that you taped. I'm not sure if he 'got' it or not. It is hard to unless you have been alive long enough to devote your life to anything, be the best and then watch your skills fade with age. Then along with that you see that thing become bastardized and lose its' (what you percieve to be its') beauty.
All I could think of when listening to Earl was that I hoped he could see the irony. If you watched you'll know what I mean.
Brings a quote you used to my mind. When you told someone that even if they beat you, you were still the best. :wink: It made me laugh out loud because in our match I felt (stlll do...but don't feel the need to prove it) the same way!!! LOL I'm sure that Wimpy did with Earl too!!!!!!! Don't you?
You will see it when you are older....I guarantee it.
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Fast Lenny said:Earl was the best ever in 9 ball,he made Wimpy cry.
I heard that story during Earls' exhibition here that you taped. I'm not sure if he 'got' it or not. It is hard to unless you have been alive long enough to devote your life to anything, be the best and then watch your skills fade with age. Then along with that you see that thing become bastardized and lose its' (what you percieve to be its') beauty.
All I could think of when listening to Earl was that I hoped he could see the irony. If you watched you'll know what I mean.
Brings a quote you used to my mind. When you told someone that even if they beat you, you were still the best. :wink: It made me laugh out loud because in our match I felt (stlll do...but don't feel the need to prove it) the same way!!! LOL I'm sure that Wimpy did with Earl too!!!!!!! Don't you?
You will see it when you are older....I guarantee it.
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what I got from it
Seems Earl told the story pretty well without too much ego involved....
The gist of it (IMHO) was that Wimpy saw that it was the end of an era that he lived; and with the jump shot, the game had changed, and maybe not for the better...
grindz said:I heard that story during Earls' exhibition here that you taped. I'm not sure if he 'got' it or not. It is hard to unless you have been alive long enough to devote your life to anything, be the best and then watch your skills fade with age. Then along with that you see that thing become bastardized and lose its' (what you percieve to be its') beauty.
All I could think of when listening to Earl was that I hoped he could see the irony. If you watched you'll know what I mean.
Brings a quote you used to my mind. When you told someone that even if they beat you, you were still the best. :wink: It made me laugh out loud because in our match I felt (stlll do...but don't feel the need to prove it) the same way!!! LOL I'm sure that Wimpy did with Earl too!!!!!!! Don't you?
You will see it when you are older....I guarantee it.
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Seems Earl told the story pretty well without too much ego involved....
The gist of it (IMHO) was that Wimpy saw that it was the end of an era that he lived; and with the jump shot, the game had changed, and maybe not for the better...
Tap, tap, tap Jay for mentioning Harold Worst.......
Harold doesn't get talked about much because of his early death. He DEFINITELY needed to be mentioned. Wish I could have witnessed his game in person. I do remember my Dad taking me to the funural home when he passed....but that was all I knew of him, until much later.
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jay helfert said:
Harold doesn't get talked about much because of his early death. He DEFINITELY needed to be mentioned. Wish I could have witnessed his game in person. I do remember my Dad taking me to the funural home when he passed....but that was all I knew of him, until much later.
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wahcheck said:
Mosconi was probably the greatest Straight Pool player who ever lived, including Greenleaf. But he was strictly a tournament player and only a 14.1 player at that. Kind of a one trick pony, although I heard his Three Cushion game was very strong also.
Now if they were gambling at Straight Pool, Lassiter might just be the favorite.
Willie was known to fade for the cash, that's why he stuck to tournaments. Luther did play in some of the tournaments that Mosconi won in the 50's. Even he would say Willie was the best.
grindz said:
He deserves more than just a mention. He may have been the greatest player ever to hold a cue! He could play any and all games and find a way to beat you. He feared no one and loved a challenge. He was like the Efren of his era. Show him a new game and in one week he would be playing the best players in the world and in two weeks he would be beating them.
jay helfert said:
Didnt he win a huge 3c tourny in Brasil or somewhere-then snapped off a 9ball or straight pool tourny whle he was in town? I dont remember (early Alzhemers) all i read specifically, but Ive read a lot and came to the conclusion quite a while ago that Harold is in the top 3 'cueists' of all time.
It was the world professional championship in Argentina. According to the stories, he was lucky to get out of town alive, and probably wasn't looking for action right after.Nostroke said:
3 things make a GREAT player.
1. Tournaments won
2. Gambling prowess
3. Longevity.
In my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the greatest 9 baller to ever play. Earl was the the best tournament 9 baller, but Luther beats him in gambling ability as well as longevity.
As for background on Luther Lassiter, he was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken, ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
1. Tournaments won
2. Gambling prowess
3. Longevity.
In my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the greatest 9 baller to ever play. Earl was the the best tournament 9 baller, but Luther beats him in gambling ability as well as longevity.
As for background on Luther Lassiter, he was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken, ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected all the info that I had on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
jay helfert said:
Jay,
Your description of players who stand out in every generation because they stand the test of time is a great point!
I agree with you wholeheartedly about Buddy being in that zone he was in for that special period. In my opinion, Buddy hall had the very best cue ball control ever on any player.
I would have loved to see a dream match up between the Buddy who beat "Cesar Morales" aka Bata vs St Louie when he was in HIS zone. I would lean towards Buddy in that match up.
A little footnote to all of this...on page 108 in Buddy Hall's biography "Rags to Rifleman", Budyy says that Lassiter was the best 9 baller he ever saw.
Man... these stories move through me as pure as the blood that runs through my veins.. I NEEEEED THEM!! Thanks a bunch all of you that can and have contributed to all of the stories that I wish I was around for... I'm still wet behind the ears a little for hell sakes!!! 
SCCues said:
Hard to say who the best is. I like Orcollo's game a lot and a few other filipinos are right there too. But the guy who impresses me the most right now is young Mr. Wu from Taipei. He is the Zen Master of pool today in my book. And his buddy Yang from Taipei is nearly as good. Yang has the experience as does Orcollo, but Wu is on another level when he is on his game, which is most of the time. Kind of like Earl 15-20 years ago, just a notch above the rest of the world.
Jung-Lin Chang and Pin-Yi Ko
Jay,
Have you had the chance to see Jung-Lin Chang yet? At one point, from Apr 2007 until June 2008 he won 6 out of 9 Guiness 9 Ball events. These tournaments included the likes of Ching Shun Yang, Fong Pang Chao, Dennis Orcollo, Ronnie Alcano, Alex Pagulayan, Antonio Gabica, Lee Van Corteza, Joven Bustamonte, etc.
As for Chia Ching Wu, can you believe he's still only 19!
Two more that I really have high hopes for the future are Pin-Yi Ko and Jian-Bo Fu.
jay helfert said:
Jay,
Have you had the chance to see Jung-Lin Chang yet? At one point, from Apr 2007 until June 2008 he won 6 out of 9 Guiness 9 Ball events. These tournaments included the likes of Ching Shun Yang, Fong Pang Chao, Dennis Orcollo, Ronnie Alcano, Alex Pagulayan, Antonio Gabica, Lee Van Corteza, Joven Bustamonte, etc.
As for Chia Ching Wu, can you believe he's still only 19!
Two more that I really have high hopes for the future are Pin-Yi Ko and Jian-Bo Fu.