hes probably on kt pay roll and all the contracts are probably made up by kt and all the money is going right back in kt pocket....dont be surprised if im right
T
Timberly
Guest
That was one of the options that came to mind.billiardspro said:
If that is in fact the case, it's still on the up & up whether we agree with it or not. KT has money and he got it by outsmarting others. There are tons of people that will never buy anything from an infomercial but there are tons that do. This "contract" really isn't that far from selling something on an infomercial... some people just will not sign it, and others will. It's just another way for someone (Mark, KT? Mike?) to make money by outsmarting people. More times than not, the rich get rich off the backs of the hard workers... the ones that actually do the work... Whoever is behind this will be making good money off the backs of the players. I'm very curious to see what kind of endorsements, if any, that the players will get... This will definitely be something to watch unfold as time passes.Pool_Is_Kool
Registered
I hope that you are right about the 90 day clause for the players. If that's the case then each and everyone of them should get out of this trap as soon as possible.
Not everyone gets a chance to get out of a slave contract. And that's exactly what it is. If the players didn't have to pay back any of the money that is supposedly being given to every month, then it wouldn't be a bad deal.
Not everyone gets a chance to get out of a slave contract. And that's exactly what it is. If the players didn't have to pay back any of the money that is supposedly being given to every month, then it wouldn't be a bad deal.
Pool_Is_Kool said:
I'm not so sure 90 days is a good deal when he can dump you in 30 days.
And as explained before, all expenses, including your monthly allowance, comes off the top.
Wow. So much reading to catch up on in only a mere 2 days. I'm on my way home, currently in Oklahoma City.
About Mark Trainer, I think his "vision" is to have a block of players, 30 or so in number, and with the utilization of a company called Athletes First, he is going to be seeking big-name sponsors.
With the IPT broadcast and exposure, I believe this is a possibility. Pool has always been on the bottom rung of the ladder in the American sports, but times are a changing. Again, I attribute it to the IPT and Kevin Trudeau, and it may be that Mark Trainer is taking advantage of pool being on the rise.
The players who did sign, some of them at least, will benefit from having a monthly salary. This enables them to get to events that they may not have been able to afford otherwise. It allows them to devote time to practicing and honing their skills as opposed to seeking funds to travel.
The contract may be good for some players and not so good for others, but if I were a player and had no other means of income, Mark Trainer's contract would be a godsend, at least at this juncture.
JMHO, FWIW.
JAM
About Mark Trainer, I think his "vision" is to have a block of players, 30 or so in number, and with the utilization of a company called Athletes First, he is going to be seeking big-name sponsors.
With the IPT broadcast and exposure, I believe this is a possibility. Pool has always been on the bottom rung of the ladder in the American sports, but times are a changing. Again, I attribute it to the IPT and Kevin Trudeau, and it may be that Mark Trainer is taking advantage of pool being on the rise.
The players who did sign, some of them at least, will benefit from having a monthly salary. This enables them to get to events that they may not have been able to afford otherwise. It allows them to devote time to practicing and honing their skills as opposed to seeking funds to travel.
The contract may be good for some players and not so good for others, but if I were a player and had no other means of income, Mark Trainer's contract would be a godsend, at least at this juncture.
JMHO, FWIW.
JAM
If you really want to make money out of a player through endorsements, then you probably just want 2 or 3 "marquee" players. Having 30 players, I'm not so sure where he is going. You can not divide your energy in that much people. Considering the conract is managerial too, so he will have to do a lot of paper works or at least he should do the paper works for his players.
If he put in the MONEY so the player can get into a tournament, then he should get a portion of the winning. Any event that the player entered on his own resources, Mark shouldn't get any cut.
If he put in the MONEY so the player can get into a tournament, then he should get a portion of the winning. Any event that the player entered on his own resources, Mark shouldn't get any cut.
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rackmsuckr said:
Linda,
Will you introduce me to Angel Paglia?
Bandit <---- hearts cherubs
NaClBandit said:Linda,
Will you introduce me to Angel Paglia?
Bandit <---- hearts cherubs
I sure will sweetie. She is even more perfect in person.
Pressure galore
Won't it be like anybody else giving poolplayers money with a sure fire collection abilities. In other words will it not just get to where the players are saying--- gee I need to place high in this one. I owe that Mark guy 12k or 20k or whatever. You know what I mean. Like somebody said, just a lot more pressure.........
Won't it be like anybody else giving poolplayers money with a sure fire collection abilities. In other words will it not just get to where the players are saying--- gee I need to place high in this one. I owe that Mark guy 12k or 20k or whatever. You know what I mean. Like somebody said, just a lot more pressure.........
crosseyedjoe said:
There are sports representatives that prove this very wrong. Mark McCormack pioneered this area with International Management Corporation. He started out representing Arnold Palmer. His group now handles athletes in 11 sports and he has 2300 employees in 30 contries. They represent an awful lot of top celebrity athletes. Folks who have money and fame that Mike Sigel can only dream of (like Maria Sharapova who graces the IMC home page).
Folks this is nothing new in professional sports. Players agents are very common, some are good, some are bad. Certainly signing with the wrong agent has cost some athletes a lot of money. Others have benefited greatly from the efforts of their agent. Given the newness of the IPT, and the resulting lack of awareness, I would be very careful and not just sign with the first offer that comes along. If I were interested there would be a fair bit of due diligence done first to determine the agents track record. Like I said, there are LOTS of player agents and sports/athletes representatives around. There are many who will chase athletes with contracts. Some are greedy leeches. Be very carefull signing with an agent, do your homework, do not be impatient. Pool players need to learn how real pro sports operate !
Dave
That just proved my point.
"He started out representing Arnold Palmer." - You start with small number of clients. If you can get a "marquee" player the better.
"...he has 2300 employees in 30 contries." - You will need to devote energy to every client that you have.
"11 sports . . . in 30 contries" - This translates to helathy distribution of clients in each sport discipline for each country. Granted, Mark can sign up players from other countries, but does he have the proper mechanism to assist those players in their country.
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It just sounds that the deal he is offering is more like a "credit card company" (indentured servitude in worst case) instead of managerial services.
"He started out representing Arnold Palmer." - You start with small number of clients. If you can get a "marquee" player the better.
"...he has 2300 employees in 30 contries." - You will need to devote energy to every client that you have.
"11 sports . . . in 30 contries" - This translates to helathy distribution of clients in each sport discipline for each country. Granted, Mark can sign up players from other countries, but does he have the proper mechanism to assist those players in their country.
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It just sounds that the deal he is offering is more like a "credit card company" (indentured servitude in worst case) instead of managerial services.
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Gabber
Banned
JAM said:
Lets say Kieth is drawn in a pool with 5 other players who are under contract with MT. Would they conspire against him to make more money?
What would the situation be if MT had 80 IPT players under contract?
Any idea why KT allows this guy Mark? to walk aroud offering his IPT players contracts? Right under his nose at HIS tournament?
The guy is doing buisness on his turf and he does nothing!! That doesn't sound like KT to me.
[ Even Jay got thrown out!
]If you have 50 IPT players under contract [ out of 150 players] and you are playing in a round-robin format, doesn't this dramatically increase the possibility of manipulation of the whole tourny?
I think its a valid question.
Gabber
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Gabber said:Lets say Kieth is drawn in a pool with 5 other players who are under contract with MT. Would they conspire against him to make more money?
What would the situation be if MT had 80 IPT players under contract?
Any idea why KT allows this guy Mark? to walk aroud offering his IPT players contracts? Right under his nose at HIS tournament?
The guy is doing buisness on his turf and he does nothing!! That doesn't sound like KT to me.
[ Even Jay got thrown out!
If you have 50 IPT players under contract [ out of 150 players] and you are playing in a round-robin format, doesn't this dramatically increase the possibility of manipulation of the whole tourny?
I think its a valid question.
Gabber
Hi, Gabber!
Here's the scoop. Mark Trainer is offering players contracts because he wants a block of 30 to sell to name-brand sponsors down the road. As far as manipulation of the whole tournament, if you mean dumping, that won't happen on the IPT tour. Each player's percentage ranking stays with him from tournament to tournament on the IPT tournament trail.For players who are unemployed and/or who don't have a significant other with an income, Mark Trainer's contract provides them financial stability, enabling them to travel stress-free to events. He arranges the hotel and travel accommodations as well sa giving the player a monthly salary. It truly is a good deal for some and maybe not so good for others.
When I read AzBilliards sometimes pertaining to the IPT, I am amazed at the variety of opinions, some conjecture, some warranted, and some very unwarranted.
Speaking as someone who's on the outside looking in, I can state with 100-percent confidence that each IPT member and qualifier player who is a part of the IPT tour is very content with the state of affairs to date. As with any NEW entity, there will be growing pains and changes made from time to time. This is normal.
I know this. Keith received two checks this past week, one for $4,000 when he was the IPT member on a challenge table at a qualifier and one for $5,000 for making it past one round. When Keith came in third place at the U.S. Open, he collected $10,000. Don't get me wrong. I love the U.S. Open and will attend each and every year because I love the venue site and the week-long tournament is definitely fun. The IPT payouts are GREAT. Each competitor will be given a chance to change their life for the better. Next stop, $500,000 for the first-place prize monies in the $3-million World Open in Reno.
Again, as far as Mark Trainer, what he's doing will provide financial security to some players, enabling them to travel without worrying about how to pay for it. If Mark is able to secure some sponsors, then it will be a win-win for all involved, including the IPT.
JAM
T
Timberly
Guest
Things that make you go hmmmmm. I said it's a possibility and I ceraintly wouldn't be surprised to find out that KT is in on this. I'm not saying that he is, but I am saying that it's quite possible.Gabber said:Any idea why KT allows this guy Mark? to walk aroud offering his IPT players contracts? Right under his nose at HIS tournament?
The guy is doing buisness on his turf and he does nothing!! That doesn't sound like KT to me.
[ Even Jay got thrown out!
A salary that they have to pay back. I don't like calling it a salary... it should be called a loan. I'm salaried at my job... I don't pay them back for my paychecks. I do however pay the bank back for the loan on my car.JAM said:
At the end of the year ....
though MT will be doing a profit and loss statement on every player under contract. If the player is not making money after expenses then I would think they would be in question as to whether they would continue under contract or to be just flat out dropped.
Let's use your example of $4,000 a month for a montly salary or whatever, that's $48,000 a year. A player has to pay that back, plus give MT 30% above the $48,000 and off endorsements (which we all know are hard to come by for Pool players).
Let's say Player A was pretty good, and won $80,000 during the year, so he would owe MT, $48,000 BACK for the monthly salary, plus 30% of the $32,000 above equals $9,600, WHICH leaves the player $23,000 for the year.
As far as player income he would have to consider the $48,000 as part of his income to keep from insulting himself, but for tax purposes would deduct all business expenses and be taxed at about $23,000, which would leave him a net of about $18,000 for the year.
Unless he had endorsement money on top of this, he would not be in too good a shape. And let's face it, many many players will not materialize in the money as they might be speculated to, plus many players will be hard to market for products, either because they haven't won or placed high enough in the money, or perhaps personal traits that are not considered appealing.
To me, this MT is trying to 'strike' while the iron is still heating up. I also think, that after a period of time, you will see more agents pop up, perhaps some expanding from Football or Basketball, with a more sensible and equable approach. 30% is very high to me, especially just starting out.
though MT will be doing a profit and loss statement on every player under contract. If the player is not making money after expenses then I would think they would be in question as to whether they would continue under contract or to be just flat out dropped.
Let's use your example of $4,000 a month for a montly salary or whatever, that's $48,000 a year. A player has to pay that back, plus give MT 30% above the $48,000 and off endorsements (which we all know are hard to come by for Pool players).
Let's say Player A was pretty good, and won $80,000 during the year, so he would owe MT, $48,000 BACK for the monthly salary, plus 30% of the $32,000 above equals $9,600, WHICH leaves the player $23,000 for the year.
As far as player income he would have to consider the $48,000 as part of his income to keep from insulting himself, but for tax purposes would deduct all business expenses and be taxed at about $23,000, which would leave him a net of about $18,000 for the year.
Unless he had endorsement money on top of this, he would not be in too good a shape. And let's face it, many many players will not materialize in the money as they might be speculated to, plus many players will be hard to market for products, either because they haven't won or placed high enough in the money, or perhaps personal traits that are not considered appealing.
To me, this MT is trying to 'strike' while the iron is still heating up. I also think, that after a period of time, you will see more agents pop up, perhaps some expanding from Football or Basketball, with a more sensible and equable approach. 30% is very high to me, especially just starting out.
Timberly said:A salary that they have to pay back. I don't like calling it a salary... it should be called a loan. I'm salaried at my job... I don't pay them back for my paychecks. I do however pay the bank back for the loan on my car.
Do they have to pay the "salary" back if the player doesn't make enough money to cover the monthly payments? I'm assuming they don't and that is the risk that the agent is taking.
Snapshot9 said:
I must have misunderstood something because I was assuming that MT was taking 30% of the gross.
So in your example, MT would take 24,000 of the eighty thousand as his commission and then take the 48,000 advance repayment leaving the player with 8,000. The player would still have to pay taxes on the 56,000 (48,000+8,000) minus expenses incurred by the player(table time,billiard supplies,etc.)
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Sometimes keeping things in perspective becomes very difficult, especially when one is personally involved. While this past tournament was certainly a major sporting event by pool standards, and the participants certainly earned and deserve the celebrity status that they are all enjoying, realizing that the general commercial appeal of the IPT and it's players is not exactly on the level of the World Series, the NBA, Micheal Jordan or Derek Jeter makes the motives of this person (agent) very suspect.
Look, while I am not an expert in this area, I don't believe that reputable, established sports agents and agencies generally operate in the manner that I have read in this thread. As best as I understand it, in sports where the players have contracts with teams, the agencies negotiate their player's salaries and bonuses, and sometimes, where salaries are not involved, event "show up fees" are sometimes arranged and negotiated for the very top players. For those very few marketable players that have that special public appeal, good agencies are able to arrange and negotiate advertising and endorsement contracts for a percentage of the contract. They certainly don't pursue every single player in a developing sport for a percentage of tournament prizes that the players are already entered and qualified into for a few lousy thousand bucks in advance. Unfortunately, at this stage of the sport, there is not any market for most pool players for endorsements of products outside of the pool world and advertisements for pool related products are limited to publications directed at pool enthusisits. This may, or may not, slowly change in the distant future. The point is that, as I read this thread, red flags and rockets are constanly going off.
Then, what really strikes me as very strange and unusual is that KT would grant someone, anyone, trying to place most of his players under this type of contract, unlimited access to them at one of his events. Can it be that KT has a vested, hidden interest in this venture?
Look, while I am not an expert in this area, I don't believe that reputable, established sports agents and agencies generally operate in the manner that I have read in this thread. As best as I understand it, in sports where the players have contracts with teams, the agencies negotiate their player's salaries and bonuses, and sometimes, where salaries are not involved, event "show up fees" are sometimes arranged and negotiated for the very top players. For those very few marketable players that have that special public appeal, good agencies are able to arrange and negotiate advertising and endorsement contracts for a percentage of the contract. They certainly don't pursue every single player in a developing sport for a percentage of tournament prizes that the players are already entered and qualified into for a few lousy thousand bucks in advance. Unfortunately, at this stage of the sport, there is not any market for most pool players for endorsements of products outside of the pool world and advertisements for pool related products are limited to publications directed at pool enthusisits. This may, or may not, slowly change in the distant future. The point is that, as I read this thread, red flags and rockets are constanly going off.
Then, what really strikes me as very strange and unusual is that KT would grant someone, anyone, trying to place most of his players under this type of contract, unlimited access to them at one of his events. Can it be that KT has a vested, hidden interest in this venture?