Mastering inside english how long?

[Cornerman]

Are you suggesting that throw is simply insignificant?

I'll choose my words wisely for once. It's much less significant than people have made it out to be. In fact, what I see is minor adjustments in people's stroke to make throw a false player by adding swerve. Usually it's either with a slow down in stroke speed or an increase in butt angle. But, after making this a focus in watching players over the years, I've noticed this to be a pretty regular thing.

I almost never "compensate for throw." I realized that my trying to compensate for throw was exactly what was screwing me.

It is the whole idea of "spin throw is not very significant" that allowed me to realize that inside and outside english are and should be of nearly equal difficulty. If you don't believe this, then inside english will never become easier.

Fred

 

[Joe T]

Are you suggesting that throw is simply insignificant? That, or compensating for throw is the same difficulty for IE and OE shots.

For me I would say, Not insignificant but highly overrated and the expressions of 'it threw' or 'I'm throwing it in' or 'compensating for the throw' are often misused.

 

[randyg]

I'll choose my words wisely for once. It's much less significant than people have made it out to be. In fact, what I see is minor adjustments in people's stroke to make throw a false player by adding swerve. Usually it's either with a slow down in stroke speed or an increase in butt angle. But, after making this a focus in watching players over the years, I've noticed this to be a pretty regular thing.

I almost never "compensate for throw." I realized that my trying to compensate for throw was exactly what was screwing me.

It is the whole idea of "spin throw is not very significant" that allowed me to realize that inside and outside english are and should be of nearly equal difficulty. If you don't believe this, then inside english will never become easier.

Fred

TAP-TAP-TAP......Thanks Fred....SPF=randyg

 

[Patrick Johnson]

jsp:
I still think IE shots have (generally) less margin of error compared to OE because of the intricacies of throw. For a certain cut shot, you can always find the exact amount of OE to give you a perfect "gearing" effect such that you're absolutely immune to ball conditions. But there is no such corresonding amount of IE. You'll always be susceptible to friction for all IE shots. Not only that, but you also have to develop a feel about how the friction between the ball surfaces change as you vary the cut angle, speed, spin, and humidity. Edit: Sure you can say the same thing about OE shots if you don't achieve that perfect gearing spin, but I've posted numerous times in the past that I believe there is an amount of "automatic correction" going on for certain OE shots, such that it does increase your margin of error.

Can you point me to your past post(s) about this?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

I'll choose my words wisely for once. It's much less significant than people have made it out to be. In fact, what I see is minor adjustments in people's stroke to make throw a false player by adding swerve. Usually it's either with a slow down in stroke speed or an increase in butt angle. But, after making this a focus in watching players over the years, I've noticed this to be a pretty regular thing.

I almost never "compensate for throw." I realized that my trying to compensate for throw was exactly what was screwing me.

It is the whole idea of "spin throw is not very significant" that allowed me to realize that inside and outside english are and should be of nearly equal difficulty. If you don't believe this, then inside english will never become easier.

Fred

Thanks for your response.

It's either you play with extremely pristine balls, or I have to do a better job with my ball hygiene (snicker snicker).

 

[jsp]

Can you point me to your past post(s) about this?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88014

You should be familiar with the thread since we did get into a somewhat involved dialogue...lol.

My views have evolved a bit since my last posts in that thread, but I still do think that generally OE increases your shooting margin of error. On the same token, IE generally decreases your margin of error using parallel arguments. The extent of this does depend on how clean your balls are.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Fred:
I almost never "compensate for throw."

I agree it's generally an overstated issue, but I wouldn't say "almost never". For shots that are pretty full, I compensate for throw. This includes shots like this, which are pretty common:

CueTable Help

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

Thanks for your response.

It's either you play with extremely pristine balls, or I have to do a better job with my ball hygiene (snicker snicker).

Nope. I play in bars and in pool halls with less than stellar equipment just like everyone else. My social club, the balls are pretty awful. I almost never clean my pool balls at home.

Your response just tells me that you put more weight into "spin throw" than I think you should. Again, I did the same thing just like everyone else does. Then I realized it wasn't happening on the real table like I thought it was.

Fred

 

[jsp]

Your response just tells me that you put more weight into "spin throw" than I think you should.

What about "stun throw"? When you cinch cut shots, do you stun the vast majority of those shots, with no side spin at all?

 

[Cornerman]

What about "stun throw"? When you cinch cut shots, do you stun the vast majority of those shots, with no side spin at all?

Straight natural follow if I'm cinching.

Fred

 

[jingle]

Threads like this, with everyone's input, is what makes AZ so awesome!

 

[Cornerman]

Threads like this, with everyone's input, is what makes AZ so awesome!

You mean people are actually still reading this thread? What's wrong with you people?

Fred <~~~ okay, I'm still reading, too (especially when Joe Tucker and Randy G. chimed in)

 

[Joe T]

You mean people are actually still reading this thread? What's wrong with you people?

Fred <~~~ okay, I'm still reading, too (especially when Joe Tucker and Randy G. chimed in)

Are you kidding, your response was music to my eyes. I spend about 3 of the first 4 hrs of my classes getting people (of all levels) to use inside english and the word throw might never come up.

Now if I could only explain my reasoning as well as you do.
(I'll take the last 4 in that department)

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Two questions.

Masters, how long did it take you to master inside english?

Students, how much time do you spend practicing inside english?

Inside english is like meditation or yoga, it is in itself "a practice." There is no such thing as mastery. The more you do it the better you will become...

 

[jsp]

For me I would say, Not insignificant but highly overrated and the expressions of 'it threw' or 'I'm throwing it in' or 'compensating for the throw' are often misused.

That's interesting, because I actually feel that throw is an underrated phenomenon to most beginners.

Can you please provide examples how the phrases you listed are misused?

 

[dr_dave]

... I spend about 3 of the first 4 hrs of my classes getting people (of all levels) to use inside english and the word throw might never come up.

Now if I could only explain my reasoning as well as you do.
(I'll take the last 4 in that department)

Joe, Fred, and others,

I don't think I agree completely with how you guys feel about throw and its lack of importance. Obviously not, because I wrote 12 BD articles on the topic! However, I do agree that squirt and swerve are much more important when compensating one's aim with English.

There are certain shots which cannot be made without throw and/or spin transfer (which come hand in hand). Also, with certain shots (e.g., slow, stun shots), if you don't compensate for throw, you will miss the shot (sometimes by a lot, depending on ball conditions).

Now, concerning inside English, I agree throw is less of a factor, and it is a more consistent factor. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#inside​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

That's interesting, because I actually feel that throw is an underrated phenomenon to most beginners.

Can you please provide examples how the phrases you listed are misused?

Here's 3 quickies, real busy trying to get things (and myself) ready for next week.

With this ball frozen to the cushion most instruction I’ve seen tells the beginner that they must strike the cushion first so the object ball won’t be thrown into the cushion. If that’s the case I could never get 3 rails around on this shot.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2HbFl4IEvh3QJIC3lJIC2laXT1lIne1lbJE3laST3lOJh@


Here’s a shot with a top rated pro player telling people to aim full 3-4 inches to the end rail cuz you’re going to throw it in, while making no mention of squirt.. At that speed and distance I think that’s crazy.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1HIaY3IHpe4QHFX4lHFX1lHkJ5lCmT6lEia6lOVT2laft4lPnG@

I believe in collision induced throw and that inside and/or outside can help to reduce it and this is where many players say they threw it in when I believe they actually hit the correct contact point but reduced the collision induced throw.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2HAuo4QCVU4lCVU1lBsl1lDYj1lbAP3lKyR@

 

[Patrick Johnson]

jsp:
I still do think that generally OE increases your shooting margin of error. On the same token, IE generally decreases your margin of error using parallel arguments.

I remember our conversation now. Your arguments were in favor of outside spin vs. no spin to increase the margin for error on cut shots; my arguments were that the added complications of using spin (squirt/swerve, higher sensitivity) more than cancelled any gains.

This is different - the question isn't between outside spin and no spin but between outside and inside spin. Since the squirt/swerve issues are the same with both inside and outside spin, maybe you have more of a point here.

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

Here's 3 quickies, real busy trying to get things (and myself) ready for next week.

With this ball frozen to the cushion most instruction I’ve seen tells the beginner that they must strike the cushion first so the object ball won’t be thrown into the cushion. If that’s the case I could never get 3 rails around on this shot.

CueTable Help

Actually, you do have to hit the cushion first to even have a chance of pocketing the ball. Now, does that mean it would be impossible going 3 rails if you did hit the cushion first? Not sure. Keep in mind the contact time between CB and rail is much longer (I think) than the contact time between CB and OB. So you can actually hit the cushion first before hitting the OB and also have the OB depart from the CB before the CB leaves the cushion, such that the inside english could still take.

Here’s a shot with a top rated pro player telling people to aim full 3-4 inches to the end rail cuz you’re going to throw it in, while making no mention of squirt.. At that speed and distance I think that’s crazy.

CueTable Help

I agree with you here, especially since squirt would make you hit the OB even more full.

I believe in collision induced throw and that inside and/or outside can help to reduce it and this is where many players say they threw it in when I believe they actually hit the correct contact point but reduced the collision induced throw.

CueTable Help

Could be, but I still think it's possible to throw balls in, including the shot you diagrammed.

Thanks for taking the time to draw up examples of what you're talking about.

 

[Scott Lee]

I'm with JoeT here...highly overrated, and frequently misunderstood.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

For me I would say, Not insignificant but highly overrated and the expressions of 'it threw' or 'I'm throwing it in' or 'compensating for the throw' are often misused.