Metal Rings Rising??
- Thread starter ace911
- Start date
I have seen issue with just about every cue maker in the business, myself included. I believe it's more an issue related to the finish curing and possibly shrinking more than anything. That being said I think letting a cue sit a long while before spraying the last 2 coats will help out.
Good luck!
Bryan
Luxe CustomCues
Registered
Metal Rings
What I have learned is that depending how you cut your metal rings such as a single tip tool and the thickness of the metal and how much metal you are removing from the ring and how well the rings fit on the tenon.
That you will actually create enough heat to loosen the epoxy and once the epoxy melts it no longer is doing its job and the ring could shift if it is loose to the tenon that it is glued to.
Most tenons are slightly smaller so that you can get glue between the ring and the tenon and both sides of the ring.
Since most metal rings are oversized and have a already machined sized hole they have a tendency to fit loose on the tenon and they are oversized so shouldn’t mater in most cases.
But when you start to apply finish to the cue you are now cutting off any air and moisture to the previously exposed wood so the wood will reduce in size then the ring will show as it is growing or moving when it is actually moving on the tenon.
So when you have a oversized metal ring and you are machining the ring to get to your final size heat is generated and also if the ring was not tight to the tenon thru the pre machined size whole you can create the situation I described.
What I have done is to created a fixture to cut down any over size metal rings before applying them on the cue to reduce any heat build up during machining the rings and sanding to their final size.
Sorry if grammar not up to par so hope I get what I have experienced across also hope it helps.
What I have learned is that depending how you cut your metal rings such as a single tip tool and the thickness of the metal and how much metal you are removing from the ring and how well the rings fit on the tenon.
That you will actually create enough heat to loosen the epoxy and once the epoxy melts it no longer is doing its job and the ring could shift if it is loose to the tenon that it is glued to.
Most tenons are slightly smaller so that you can get glue between the ring and the tenon and both sides of the ring.
Since most metal rings are oversized and have a already machined sized hole they have a tendency to fit loose on the tenon and they are oversized so shouldn’t mater in most cases.
But when you start to apply finish to the cue you are now cutting off any air and moisture to the previously exposed wood so the wood will reduce in size then the ring will show as it is growing or moving when it is actually moving on the tenon.
So when you have a oversized metal ring and you are machining the ring to get to your final size heat is generated and also if the ring was not tight to the tenon thru the pre machined size whole you can create the situation I described.
What I have done is to created a fixture to cut down any over size metal rings before applying them on the cue to reduce any heat build up during machining the rings and sanding to their final size.
Sorry if grammar not up to par so hope I get what I have experienced across also hope it helps.
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A different opinion
The rings don't move, they don't swell and they don't rise.
As Bryan stated, it's about the finish and how it's applied.
Couple that with the fact that auto-clear is notorious for not sticking to metal. On a car, it adheres to the color or base coats but bare metal, not so much.
There is also the infamous 'pinch-down' effect of the finish. Auto-clear will continue to give-up it's solvents, etc. for a very long time. In doing so, the finish will contract (or shrink) on the surface it's applied to. As it's doing this, it can lift from a metal surface giving you the impression that the ring has swollen because it feels higher than the rest of the cue.
That's actually the finish de-bonding from the ring.
A well established base coat and this quote (again from Bryan) are key.
"I think letting a cue sit a long while before spraying the last 2 coats will help out."
I know it helps immensely, but hey, who's got the time??? Lol.
The rings don't move, they don't swell and they don't rise.
As Bryan stated, it's about the finish and how it's applied.
Couple that with the fact that auto-clear is notorious for not sticking to metal. On a car, it adheres to the color or base coats but bare metal, not so much.
There is also the infamous 'pinch-down' effect of the finish. Auto-clear will continue to give-up it's solvents, etc. for a very long time. In doing so, the finish will contract (or shrink) on the surface it's applied to. As it's doing this, it can lift from a metal surface giving you the impression that the ring has swollen because it feels higher than the rest of the cue.
That's actually the finish de-bonding from the ring.
A well established base coat and this quote (again from Bryan) are key.
"I think letting a cue sit a long while before spraying the last 2 coats will help out."
I know it helps immensely, but hey, who's got the time??? Lol.
Eric Wynne
Banned
It helps greatly if you slightly undercut the rings before sealing and finishing . 
I almost never build a cue with plain metal rings, but if I do, here is what I do:
1. I build the ring on a tenon that is not part of the cue. Since Gorilla glue doesn't break down with heat the way Epoxy does, I glue up the ring with that.
2. I cut the rings down close to finished size, again off of the cue.
3. I bore out the rings. If the ring at the joint needs to be .850" at finished size, I will bore it out to around .800", that way there is only a few thousandths of actual metal in the ring. I then sleeve that bored out ring over Phenolic that is already on the cue. Both of these are glued using West System Epoxy. If you glue them up with 5 minute epoxy, it will take even less heat to loosen them. It's already been argued enough, but in my opinion 5 minute, 20 minute or even 60 minute epoxy has no place in cue building.
This whole process ends up taking a day or two, mostly waiting on glues to dry. Hopefully the rings will never be felt through the finish. If they are, I would blame that on the finish curing over time and hopefully a refinish will take care of that for good.
If you can wait several months after finishing the cue before putting on a final coat that would probably help as well, but I doubt very many will want to wait that long.
1. I build the ring on a tenon that is not part of the cue. Since Gorilla glue doesn't break down with heat the way Epoxy does, I glue up the ring with that.
2. I cut the rings down close to finished size, again off of the cue.
3. I bore out the rings. If the ring at the joint needs to be .850" at finished size, I will bore it out to around .800", that way there is only a few thousandths of actual metal in the ring. I then sleeve that bored out ring over Phenolic that is already on the cue. Both of these are glued using West System Epoxy. If you glue them up with 5 minute epoxy, it will take even less heat to loosen them. It's already been argued enough, but in my opinion 5 minute, 20 minute or even 60 minute epoxy has no place in cue building.
This whole process ends up taking a day or two, mostly waiting on glues to dry. Hopefully the rings will never be felt through the finish. If they are, I would blame that on the finish curing over time and hopefully a refinish will take care of that for good.
If you can wait several months after finishing the cue before putting on a final coat that would probably help as well, but I doubt very many will want to wait that long.
Yup!...Plus what a lot of people think of as metal rings rising up, is actually a case of the wood next to it shrinking. I have some 1970's cues that are very good examples of this.
> My input is simply that I believe a LOT of it is the person that owns the cue.
My Schon has metal rings in all the shafts (in fact none of my shafts even have clearcoat left on the collars). It also has rings under the clear at the main joint,above/below the wrap and above the butt cap.
Except for periods beyond my control,I've never left it anyplace I wouldn't take a nap.
The cue has 19 almost 20 years on it with the original finish and ZERO ring pop. There isn't even pop in the shaft rings,even with no clearcoat.
Surface prep seems to be the key. Whoever sanded,sealed,and sprayed my cue,whether it was Bob or Evan,was on their shit that day :smile:. Tommy D.
My Schon has metal rings in all the shafts (in fact none of my shafts even have clearcoat left on the collars). It also has rings under the clear at the main joint,above/below the wrap and above the butt cap.
Except for periods beyond my control,I've never left it anyplace I wouldn't take a nap.
The cue has 19 almost 20 years on it with the original finish and ZERO ring pop. There isn't even pop in the shaft rings,even with no clearcoat.
Surface prep seems to be the key. Whoever sanded,sealed,and sprayed my cue,whether it was Bob or Evan,was on their shit that day :smile:. Tommy D.
Rising Rings
I have read all the responses here and have to agree with most. It is my experience that when the cue is finished every thing is perfectly flush and no signs of the rings rising. Only month later to see some rise. What I believe happens here is the same thing that happens in the auto industry. Like Cars, the cues expand and contract with the temperature change. Every thing expands in the heat. The problem is the wood expands at a different rate than the metal rings. This is where the problem arises. As already mentioned undercutting the rings slightly will help this situation. I use a very fine file to do this. It also helps to seal the area with super glue. Then clear over the entire cue. Stick to the more higher end clears. A slower drying clear will help here. To fast of a clear will set up before it has a chance to settle to the bottom and this is where the shrinkage problems come in. Most of the problems with shrinkage in the auto industry came from using lacquer primers and spraying urethane over it. The lacquer is not catalyzed and the urethane is to hot and softens the lacquer. This is where barrier coats and sealers come in but that is another story. As mentioned earlier, it is important to have a snug fit on the rings and tenon as well as using a good slow epoxy. After glue up let the cue fully cure and give the epoxies a chance to shrink to the bottom before turning. Also take small cuts as the heat from turning will soften the epoxy and loosen the bond. Hope this is helpful.
I have read all the responses here and have to agree with most. It is my experience that when the cue is finished every thing is perfectly flush and no signs of the rings rising. Only month later to see some rise. What I believe happens here is the same thing that happens in the auto industry. Like Cars, the cues expand and contract with the temperature change. Every thing expands in the heat. The problem is the wood expands at a different rate than the metal rings. This is where the problem arises. As already mentioned undercutting the rings slightly will help this situation. I use a very fine file to do this. It also helps to seal the area with super glue. Then clear over the entire cue. Stick to the more higher end clears. A slower drying clear will help here. To fast of a clear will set up before it has a chance to settle to the bottom and this is where the shrinkage problems come in. Most of the problems with shrinkage in the auto industry came from using lacquer primers and spraying urethane over it. The lacquer is not catalyzed and the urethane is to hot and softens the lacquer. This is where barrier coats and sealers come in but that is another story. As mentioned earlier, it is important to have a snug fit on the rings and tenon as well as using a good slow epoxy. After glue up let the cue fully cure and give the epoxies a chance to shrink to the bottom before turning. Also take small cuts as the heat from turning will soften the epoxy and loosen the bond. Hope this is helpful.
of course it does.....why do you think just about every very old cue that hasn't been used in years and years, even if its in good shape....the ferrule is not perfectly secure, its usually loose to some degree...the tennon shrunk a few thousandths and the bond started to break down if not completely....
i picked up a nice huebler quite a while ago that had a loose ferrule, my friend thought that maybe something might be wrong with it but i just replaced the ferrule and it plays just like a huebler....i measured the tennon and what do ya know....just a little undersized compared to the other two i have.
I for one, think this answer is good enough to repeat.
Rings do not rise - at least metal ones...
IMHO - the movement of the wood is more likely than just shrinkage.
With machine tools and competent sanding proceedure, the metal ring
and adjacent wood are probably within a few tenths<or less>in diameter,
and as perfectly concentric as can be measured, right before the
filling-sealing-finishing process begins. Problem is, wood is wood, not
tool steel - even tho you can turn it to perfectly round within a thou,
it ain't gonna stay that way...
Sorry.
Dale
of course they don't rise....if they did that would mean that it was shifting from side to side inside....if the ring was risen on one side it would be sunken in on the other side.....if it moved enough back and forth (angular) it would be smooth on one side of each lip and then jut out at few thou...
if the wood shrinks a few thouandths through its life (completely possible on a butt) the ring will without a doubt not change size...so your left with a ring thats higher than the surface that sunk below its OD, and its like that in its entire circumference
The raised finish does happen b/c of other issues as has been stated, but it most definitely happens from wood expansion/contraction/shrinkage.
Can't tell me they couldn't shrink when i've seen older cues that were straight that when brought down here to the swamp went crooked....just that minute change in ambient moisture content in the wood and its surroundings wrecked it....so can a butt shrink a couple thousandths over its life....YES
-Grey Ghost-
Much like the edge of points being felt in the cue down the road, that sure seems to be the case as You say with metal rings, so although I didn't always feel that way, I am starting to suspect the same thing you are referring to, and that movement in the rings has more to do with the wood, then the metal expanding and shrinking. The only remedy as I have seen It, is similar to what Bryan & KJ were saying. It seems as if a finish sits on a cue long enough, then a lite sanding a re-cote, that the rings hold up a lot better. I've tried several things including undercutting the rings, and although that helps some, eventually they can usually be at least slightly felt. I still have a lot of questioning when it comes to the subject though. have built cues with solid silver rings, and although not as bad eventually those can be felt, so that still points to the wood, but what about a situation where metal is wrapped in phenolic, Is the phenolic moving or the metal?
Greg
Great Thread - A lot of experience here with some good suggestions.
several top cuemakers have told me glue makes the difference they suggest west system also always ruff up the rings for adhesion and keep presure on over night
The cause is the wood shrinking further after the cue is finished. But is the cue finished?
Any parts of the wood that is not sealed , allows for chemical water to enter or escape.
Quite a few of the finish products are not an effective chemical barrier to water as well as areas that are not fully sealed.
Any parts of the wood that is not sealed , allows for chemical water to enter or escape.
Quite a few of the finish products are not an effective chemical barrier to water as well as areas that are not fully sealed.
