Minnesota Fats vs Mosconi

[JamisonNeu]

I have a video of both Willie Mosconi and Fat's on a game show. Not together they were on at different times. The game was you had to guess what this person does after you ask him some questions. It's pretty nice to watch. No pool but, you get a better sense of how they were when they were younger. They both won their game.

I also have some very old video's of Mr. Mosconi he is 20-30 shooting trick shots. He makes some pretty tough shots including a two table butterfly shot and some strong masse shots. Very impressive stuff as far as trick shots go.
Jamison

 

[krbsailing]

Willie vs Fatty DVD's

....not to steal your thread but, I have a two (2) DVD set of Mosconi vs Fats. It has the Wide World of Sports match hosted by Howard Cosell -- very entertaining stuff. PM me if your interested

 

[Island Drive]

Fats played his best pool in the 40's, how good I can't help? Since he was called New York Fats back in his prime, one would think there would be someone still alive that got to see him play, that person would have to be in their upper seventies by now.

 

[poolpro]

Yep, you guys, pretty much summed it up. I still believe that Mosconi was one of the best... ever. His high run record of 526 balls is still unbroken. I own an autographed cue ball by him, and I am proud to have it. I have some recoreded match up of Willie and fats playing, and fats could out talk anyone, but he could not beat any of the top players straight up. Fats used to have his own show, I think it was called Celebrity Billiards. On ot, he would play celebrities while talking non stop. He would have Zsa Zsa Gabor on and would feel the need to shark her while playing. This guy couldn't relax and let a non player shoot undistracted, how much confidence fo you think he had when it came to the real players? This is why he was so well known, he had a show where he always made sure that he won, and according to him, he was the best player ever. Never mind that he never invited a pro on that show. If you check the BCA hall of Fame, he is there for "meritous service" meaning that he did a lot for the promotion of the game, but not as a player.

Walter Tevis, the author of "the Hustler" has repeatedly said that the character of Minnesota Fats was NOT based on Wanderone. If anything, the character resembled Tevis' father (loosely). So, fats was just a good player, hustler, and showman. And a great scam artist.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I'm actually happy to hear Mosconi's take on one-pocket. I know that the people who prefer one-pocket love the game and I know it does take a lot of skill and knowledge to play the game well. However, it ranks up there with 3-ball and bumper pool in my order of preferred games. Even if I have to look beyond the grave to find a supporter, it's nice to know that I'm not totally alone in my opinion of the game.

Mosconi's version of this meeting is on page 216 of his autobiography, Willie's Game:

He started mouthing off about how good he was, and finally Mason said to me "Willie, why don't you play this guy and shut him up?" Fats didn't want to shoot straight pool; it required too much skill for him. His specialty was a gimmick game called one-pocket, in which each player is required to make all his shots in one predesignated pocket.

 

[JAM]

"The Great Pool Shoot-Out"

March of 1978, there was a front-page article in The National Billiard News written by Bob Mullen entitled "It's Anybody's Game When Legends Collide."

Here are some snippets: The meeting between these two giants of pocket billiards fittingly took place on Valentine's Day. They came together "lovingly" on the national day of love with no quarter given.

Fatty was relentless in his banter, teasing the great Mosconi into a quiet rage, and wonderous Willie had to fall back on the incomparable skill that made him the greatest player the game has ever known.

I want you readers to remember that last sentence, for no matter what occurred at the "Strange Encounter" in the Waldorf's Stralight Room under the auspices of the American Broadcasting Company and Howard Cosell, Willie Mosconi's right to his place in the history of the pool game will be assured.

Rudolph Wonderone a/k/a "Minnesota Fats," "Triple Smart Fats," and "New York Fats" is everything everybody has said, but he can play the short games well. The "Fat Man" is a great banker, plays good 9-ball and great one-pocket, and he had the great Mosconi concerned.

Mosconi is a straight pool player, and although he has excelled at any pool game that he has attempted, he falls back on straight pool because that is his strength. Obviously, Willie gave this match some thought for he prepared himself by practicing the short games.

Willie the Wonder came up with a new twist and made 8-ball, 9-ball, and rotation play like straight pool. Mosconi insisted that all shots be called, anything made on the break would not count and have to be respotted, and all balls made with a carom from the object ball, if not called, would not count.

The Hall of Famer from Haddon Heights came up with a couple of other rule changes that were designed to "make him shoot," like no push-out in 9-ball, no ball in hand, must shoot at the object ball, and even changing one rule in the middle of the game.

When the Fat Man objected to what was coming down, the referee, Charles Orsatti, paid little heed. So Fatty took his case to the gallery of fans. While Willie attempted to shoot, Fats made his speech to the gallery until Mosconi insisted he sit down.

Fatty said, "These are the fans, Willie, and you know you have to have fans if this game is going to work." I think that Mosconi was put down. No one can defeat Fatty in a verbal confrontation.

At the start of this "Historic Battle," Fatty took off his sport coat and Mosconi raised hell. Fatty said that a pool player wearing a coat to play is like putting chocolate ice cream on oysters.

Willie said, "All right," taking off his coat to the applause of the hometown crowd, "Let's get on with it."

They played 9-ball, rotation, and 8-ball. Mosconi won all the sets, won all the arguments, and Fatty walked out of there with a pocket full of money.

The Fat One enjoyed himself throughout, talking to the crowd, kidding with Cosell, and needling Mosconi. Mosconi was just the opposite: uptight, never a smile, always a true competitor in every sense of the word.

Willie thinks of Fatty as a braggart and a prevaricator with little talent. I think of Fatty as the biggest drawing card in the business, the example of what the public thinks of when they think of a pool player, a man who sacrifices his own time for charitable causes (Easter Seals), a kind man with a good word for everybody, a man who has helped the game that has very little good to say about him.

The Fat Man is the principal missionary in the field for the game of pool. He provides a color and excitement that is appealing to one and all, young and old, pool fans and novices. He is the spirit of what makes the game so popular.

Nobody could ever take Mosconi's place for he is one of a kind, a true living legend in pocket billiards, but it is up to Willie, and maybe Fats, to put their show on the road and tie in some of the other younger players to create that showcase necessary for the contniued interest in the game and its eventual rise to the heights it deserves.

The "Fats and Willie Show" was an add-on to the Triple PA promotion of a "Trick and Tough Shot Contest" between Champions Steve Mizerak, Allen Hopkins, Ray Martin, Peter Margo, and the incomparable Hall of Famer Irving Crane.

Luther Lassiter was to appear with this group, but had to bow out because of illness, and his place was taken by popular Ernie Costa.

The game was played on a table put up by Loria and Sons, a 4-1/2-by-9 Kling (or Hudson) that played beautifully.

This is only a portion of this one article, but it is very interesting stuff! IMHO, the writer's opinion still holds true today!

JAM

 

[Island Drive]

JAM;

"The Fat Man is the principal missionary in the field for the game of pool. He provides a color and excitement that is appealing to one and all, young and old, pool fans and novices. He is the spirit of what makes the game so popular."


Thanks for that article, with the Fat man being part of my earlier days, its nice to let others know of this man. I especially enjoyed the above paragraph, to me pretty much 'sums it up'.

When Fatty died, I went and visited Evelyn in Dowell and spent a couple days with her, amazing woman, lived with him 44 years, boy did she tell some stories.

 

[JAM]

JAM;

"The Fat Man is the principal missionary in the field for the game of pool. He provides a color and excitement that is appealing to one and all, young and old, pool fans and novices. He is the spirit of what makes the game so popular."


Thanks for that article, with the Fat man being part of my earlier days, its nice to let others know of this man. I especially enjoyed the above paragraph, to me pretty much 'sums it up'.

When Fatty died, I went and visited Evelyn in Dowell and spent a couple days with her, amazing woman, lived with him 44 years, boy did she tell some stories.

You know, that was the line in the article which really caught my eye too. I had almost highlighted it in another color because it really stood out, front and center.

Fats is exactly the spirit of what makes the game so popular to the masses, but it is repugnant to the Mosconi blue-blooded pool enthusiasts, who'd rather sit in a church-like setting when sweating a match and clap softly after good shot. Both players sure do come from different vantage points. Me personally, I like the Fats style of play.

I would love to hear some stories from Evelyn. WOW!

JAM

 

[Southpaw]

The bottom line is....Fats played pool, but Mosconi was a pool player. Fats was just a showman that loved to entertain while he played. I dont think Mosconi would have ever had too much trouble beating Fats.

Southpaw

 

[Snapshot9]

Fats

I always heard that Jackie Gleason was as good or better than Fats. Gleason had a Pool playing history before he really went into show business, and that he supported himself for awhile playing Pool.

And the Fats and Willie show, was like a Pool version of Oliver & Hardy show.

 

[StrokeofLuck]

I think George Fels wrote one time that Gleason had a high run of about 73balls in straight pool, I'm not sure on that number though. Maybe Mr. Fels could weigh in on that? Fatty was no world beater by any means but I think all around he would have handled Gleason rather easily. The only competition Fats would have beaten Mosconi in was a battle of personalties.

 

[Bibleman]

Fats Could Play

Fats could out talk anyone, but he could not beat any of the top players straight up.

I've heard this nonsense many times, but I personally saw Fats put Handsome Danny Jones and Squirrel into receivership in short order. Against Squirrel, Fats ran 8 and out three times in a row to win the cheese. (Please explain how he could have faked it?)

Fats also wrecked Danny Jones that day. Jones was US Snooker Champion and was widely considered to be one of the hottest players players in the country at the time.

A lot of people fail to realize how effective Fats psychological warfare could be. Fats was well known for busting opponents in a hurry and his talk was all designed to put an opponent in the losers bracket.

People who tried to outtalk Fats were beat before they began because diverting their attention from peak performance just a little bit was all Fats needed to guarantee a victory. Fats conversation was designed to undermine an opponents confidence and it worked most of the time.

One other thing, the first time I saw Fats he was already in his 50s, so it was remarkable that he could compete at the level he did.

Fats has been greatly under rated.

Walter Tevis, the author of "the Hustler" has repeatedly said that the character of Minnesota Fats was NOT based on Wanderone. If anything, the character resembled Tevis' father (loosely). So, fats was just a good player, hustler, and showman. And a great scam artist.

Tevis stole the pattern for his character straight from Fats who had been well known as "New York Fats" long before Tevis came along.

Tevis wrote two great books, only he got caught out and made a lot of BS excuses about stealing Fats persona. The courts disagreed!

One thing for sure, Fats pulled off the biggest pool hustle of all time when he secured the rights to the name "Minnesota Fats." He made millions.

Most of the players who beat Fats when he was in his 50s would not have had a prayer in his prime. If Mosconi had played 1-pocket with Fats, he might have lost.

Lastly, Fats was one of the all time great bankers. Only a guy like Eddy Taylor could beat him. I saw Fats play a dozen times in Johnston City and cannot recall ever seeing him miss a bank.
Bibleman

 

[freddy the beard]

Fats vs Gleason? Are you kidding?

I always heard that Jackie Gleason was as good or better than Fats. Gleason had a Pool playing history before he really went into show business, and that he supported himself for awhile playing Pool.

And the Fats and Willie show, was like a Pool version of Oliver & Hardy show.

Fats could have probably beaten Gleason one hand to two. Gleason wasnt even a short-stop. He could only play straight-pool and his rated speed was that he could get into the second rack -- a twenty to 30 ball runner, tops. I hung in Miami the whole time Jackie was down there, so I was well aware of his speed. A less-than-short-stop named Jimmy Jackson beat him out of about 4k down there. After that, he seldom played anybody who could play for money. I also got to see Fatty play. Fatty could play.

the Beard

 

[DelaWho???]

I read somewhere that Jackie used to rack for Fats in Brooklyn back in the pre Honeymooners days. Maybe it was in a Fat's bio on the net. Can anyone give this any validity, or is it just Fat's legend?

McCue Banger McCue

 

[Rich93]

Fats could have probably beaten Gleason one hand to two. Gleason wasnt even a short-stop. He could only play straight-pool and his rated speed was that he could get into the second rack -- a twenty to 30 ball runner, tops. I hung in Miami the whole time Jackie was down there, so I was well aware of his speed. A less-than-short-stop named Jimmy Jackson beat him out of about 4k down there. After that, he seldom played anybody who could play for money. I also got to see Fatty play. Fatty could play.

the Beard

Well, so much for one of my showbiz/pool idols. So, Freddy, how good was Fred Astaire? Jerry Orbach? Anybody from showbiz a really good player?

 

[Steve - Detroit]

Well, so much for one of my showbiz/pool idols. So, Freddy, how good was Fred Astaire? Jerry Orbach? Anybody from showbiz a really good player?

I remember someone very familiar with the NYC pool scene posting on CCB that Bob Hope took Gleason to the cleaners. I'm not sure, however, if beating Gleason puts someone in your "really good player" group.

 

[poolpro]

QUOTE=Bibleman] Tevis wrote two great books, only he got caught out and made a lot of BS excuses about stealing Fats persona. The courts disagreed!

One thing for sure, Fats pulled off the biggest pool hustle of all time when he secured the rights to the name "Minnesota Fats." He made millions.

You are right, as I said he was a great con artist!.

Lastly, Fats was one of the all time great bankers. Only a guy like Eddy Taylor could beat him. I saw Fats play a dozen times in Johnston City and cannot recall ever seeing him miss a bank.
Bibleman[/QUOTE]

I am sure that he made a lot of banks, but you say you him play a dozen times in Jonston City, How many times did he win? Fats absolutely NEVER one a pro title. NEVER. So I think it is unfair to even compare him to willie Mosconi who won 14 championships in 15 years. The guy loved to brag, why would he choose to not win a title and have real bragging rights? Are you telling me he just didn't feel like winning a real event. You said yourself he was already there and playing. I never said the guy could not play. Hell, I doubt I would want to bet against him, and I think I am pretty good. I just think that it is a shame that he is usually the only name a non player knows, when he was outclassed by all of the top pros. It is kinda like Anna Kournakova in tennis. I know barely anything about tennis, but I know who she is because she is in videos and calandars and she is cute and has gotten a lot of attention because of it. She is a great tennis player by most standards, but she doesn't win tournaments against the top pros. I could not tell you the names of three tennis players, but I know who she is.

 

[JPB]

QUOTE=Bibleman] Tevis wrote two great books, only he got caught out and made a lot of BS excuses about stealing Fats persona. The courts disagreed!

One thing for sure, Fats pulled off the biggest pool hustle of all time when he secured the rights to the name "Minnesota Fats." He made millions.

You are right, as I said he was a great con artist!.

Lastly, Fats was one of the all time great bankers. Only a guy like Eddy Taylor could beat him. I saw Fats play a dozen times in Johnston City and cannot recall ever seeing him miss a bank.
Bibleman

I am sure that he made a lot of banks, but you say you him play a dozen times in Jonston City, How many times did he win? Fats absolutely NEVER one a pro title. NEVER. So I think it is unfair to even compare him to willie Mosconi who won 14 championships in 15 years. The guy loved to brag, why would he choose to not win a title and have real bragging rights? Are you telling me he just didn't feel like winning a real event. You said yourself he was already there and playing. I never said the guy could not play. Hell, I doubt I would want to bet against him, and I think I am pretty good. I just think that it is a shame that he is usually the only name a non player knows, when he was outclassed by all of the top pros. It is kinda like Anna Kournakova in tennis. I know barely anything about tennis, but I know who she is because she is in videos and calandars and she is cute and has gotten a lot of attention because of it. She is a great tennis player by most standards, but she doesn't win tournaments against the top pros. I could not tell you the names of three tennis players, but I know who she is. [/QUOTE]

One thing in Fats' defense here. Back in the day tournaments were not exactly open. Read Mosconi's autobiography for some of the details. It wasn't like you could pay your money and play. And don't forget African American players were not welcome then either. So yeah, Mosconi has a bunch of titles, and he deserved them and had to beat great players. But he didn't have to beat everybody. And a bunch of times titles were head to head affairs, not tournaments. Not many players could really make a living off of just tournaments then, so just being a money player isn't the absolute final word in terms of who was best. Granted I suppose Fats could have tried to enter the tournaments. Also, saying Fats wasn't as good as Mosconi isn't that big a knock. How many were?

 

[cuejoey]

I've heard this nonsense many times, but I personally saw Fats put Handsome Danny Jones and Squirrel into receivership in short order. Against Squirrel, Fats ran 8 and out three times in a row to win the cheese. (Please explain how he could have faked it?)

Fats also wrecked Danny Jones that day. Jones was US Snooker Champion and was widely considered to be one of the hottest players players in the country at the time.

A lot of people fail to realize how effective Fats psychological warfare could be. Fats was well known for busting opponents in a hurry and his talk was all designed to put an opponent in the losers bracket.

People who tried to outtalk Fats were beat before they began because diverting their attention from peak performance just a little bit was all Fats needed to guarantee a victory. Fats conversation was designed to undermine an opponents confidence and it worked most of the time.

One other thing, the first time I saw Fats he was already in his 50s, so it was remarkable that he could compete at the level he did.

Fats has been greatly under rated.



Tevis stole the pattern for his character straight from Fats who had been well known as "New York Fats" long before Tevis came along.

Tevis wrote two great books, only he got caught out and made a lot of BS excuses about stealing Fats persona. The courts disagreed!

One thing for sure, Fats pulled off the biggest pool hustle of all time when he secured the rights to the name "Minnesota Fats." He made millions.

Most of the players who beat Fats when he was in his 50s would not have had a prayer in his prime. If Mosconi had played 1-pocket with Fats, he might have lost.

Lastly, Fats was one of the all time great bankers. Only a guy like Eddy Taylor could beat him. I saw Fats play a dozen times in Johnston City and cannot recall ever seeing him miss a bank.
Bibleman

Great Post

 

[poolpro]

[

One thing in Fats' defense here. Back in the day tournaments were not exactly open. Read Mosconi's autobiography for some of the details. It wasn't like you could pay your money and play. And don't forget African American players were not welcome then either. So yeah, Mosconi has a bunch of titles, and he deserved them and had to beat great players. But he didn't have to beat everybody. And a bunch of times titles were head to head affairs, not tournaments. Not many players could really make a living off of just tournaments then, so just being a money player isn't the absolute final word in terms of who was best. Granted I suppose Fats could have tried to enter the tournaments. Also, saying Fats wasn't as good as Mosconi isn't that big a knock. How many were?[/

QUOTE]

I know most of the tournaments were not open, but if you read my post and the one I was replying to you will see that it is understood that Fats was ALREADY THERE and playing. So, am I to believe that for some reason he just Chose to get beaten by "lessor" players? He was accepted, I mean he got his own tv show.
The pro tournaments today are not open either ( not most anyways). One more thing, if I were to come into your poolroom and proclaim I was the best ever, would you not ask me why I didn't play on the pro tour? If I told you I could absolutely beat ( and in fact I already have beaten most of the top players) would you not think it odd that I choose not to compete against all these players who I have already bested?
I do agree there are few players on the same level with Mosconi. That is why it irritates me that it is even in question who is better. Mosconi was a class act, and had the skills to back up any claim he made. Fats was a good hustler. I know fats could play, just not as good as Mosconi or most of the top players. I agree, that being known to play worse than the best players in the world is not much of an insult, but it needs to be understood that he was not of the same caliber.
That is my whole point. I mean I play pretty good, but nowhere near the level of the top players. So, I DO NOT deserve the same amount of respect as these guys. So, I would expect more than a couple of people to say otherwise if, for some unknown reason, everybody started claiming I was as good or better than the pros. The same needs to be understood when it comes to fats. He did a lot to promote this game, even though it was mostly to line his own pockets, but he was not the best, or really even one of the best. It is not fair that he gets credit for being the single most talented player for the entire history of the sport without ever winning a single title championship. Thats all.