Minnesota Fats vs Mosconi

Mosconi was one of the greatest pool players who ever lived. Right there with Greenleaf, Lassiter, Rags, James Evans, Harold Worst and a couple of others.

Fats meanwhile was one of the most fascinating people ever, a true celebrity in every sense of the word. He attracted a crowd wherever he went, be it a gas station, a hotel lobby or a restaurant lounge area.

How good was Fats? Somewhere between a Shortstop and a top player. Like an 'A' player but not a champion. He played One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions quite well. What he did know how to do was WIN THE MONEY! And he did it quite successfully for fifty odd years, hence the name "Triple Smart Fats", given him at an early age in New York.

I witnessed him beat Richie out of 20K+ in Johnston City in the 60's playing One Hole getting 8-7. Also saw him beat Eddie Robin at Three Cushions at the Michigan state Fairgrounds in 1963 (for $$) when Eddie was the hottest young player in the country. Eddie denies this match took place. I was an Eye Witness!

I heard that Fats had beaten Mosconi in a gaff game many years ago in Willie's Dad's room. They played Bank every other ball Straight Pool. Willie went broke at this game, and a life long hatred was fostered. Fats did not have a high regard for Willie and vice versa. In the 60's Fats used to tell a story about "Willie the Wop" who miscued on the game ball for the World Championship. Somehow in the 70's Fats was convinced not to tell this story any longer.

In a tournament setting (hypothetical) and on their TV matches Willie always won. But Fats won the battle of the words, time after time. And the hearts of pool fans everywhere. Willie always appeared uptight and determined to put Fats in his place. These matches (and winning them) meant a lot to Willie. Fats on the other hand, played to the crowd and the television audience. And they loved it!

As someone else said, people would flock to see Fats and hang on his every word. He is the only man I ever saw do an exhibition and never make a ball. In fact, he rarely shot one. He just held his cue, stood by the table and told stories for an hour or two. And people couldn't get enough of it. I heard all his stories a hundred times and still enjoyed them.
 
Bibleman said:
Tevis stole the pattern for his character straight from Fats who had been well known as "New York Fats" long before Tevis came along.

Tevis wrote two great books, only he got caught out and made a lot of BS excuses about stealing Fats persona. The courts disagreed!

Bibleman

Great post, but I can't agree with this one point. From everything I have read about Fats, his personality, the "pattern for his character" was nothing like the character in The Hustler. Once you get past the name and the size, the character was nothing like Fats.

Oh, well, guess I will have to disagree with two points. I have read many of the novels by Tevis and I think we wrote more than two great books. Beside The Hustler and The Color of Money, I think The Queens Gambit is a great book. Many consider The Man Who Fell to Earth to also be a great book. I thought it good but not great.

Anyhow, other than two small items, I think you make a very valid statement. From what I have read, a lot of people seem to way underrate what Fats was as player.
 
Johnny Johnson

Originally Posted by Rich93
Well, so much for one of my showbiz/pool idols. So, Freddy, how good was Fred Astaire? Jerry Orbach? Anybody from showbiz a really good player?

Steve - Detroit said:
I remember someone very familiar with the NYC pool scene posting on CCB that Bob Hope took Gleason to the cleaners. I'm not sure, however, if beating Gleason puts someone in your "really good player" group.

Fred Astaire? Dont know, but I did hear he could play a little. Jerry Orbach, a real pool-bug, who loved pool and poolrooms. I could probably play him
9 to 5. He loved Bensingers in Chicago, and 7-11 and McGirrs in NY. I also heard that Bob Hope beat Gleason for some big money. The best player in Show Biz was a sports announcer and TV celebrity of the '50s and '60s named Johnny Johnson. He could really run a hundred balls. James Caan and Peter Falk also hung in poolrooms. I used to give Jimmy Caan the 7,8 and 9 for $2 a game at the Ye Billiard Den in Hollywood. That was all he would bet, and he was not above sharking like a mad dog for that two-ster.

the Beard
 
Rich93 said:
Well, so much for one of my showbiz/pool idols. So, Freddy, how good was Fred Astaire? Jerry Orbach? Anybody from showbiz a really good player?

Fred Astaire was probably the best of the bunch, capable of running 60 to 80 balls, and maybe more. He had a nice looking stance and stroke. Eddie Kelly could tell you more about him. Jerry Orbach hung in poolrooms all his life. He was known as Jerry "The Actor" in the 60's around the New York pool scene. I played him a few times at Guys and Dolls. He played fair. I last saw him at the Peter Vitale tourney in 1987 at the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles.

The best player among athletes or celebs that I knew of was Walter Alston the old Dodger manager. He was probably capable of running 100 balls, or close to it. Quite well known for his pool prowess. Another very strong player was Leo Durocher, who weighed being a pool player against playing basebell. He was supposedly one of the better players in New York when he was a young man. Mike Shamos would have more info on him.

Peter Falk loved Pool and came to all the big tourneys in the 70's around L.A. His game was so so, like Jimmy Caan. Like Freddie I played Jimmy at Ye Billiard Den. Unlike Freddie, I got him to play $50 sets with Jack Ackerman backing him (gave him the Eight and the Break). Jack was Judy Garland's composer and arranger.
 
Legendary Stars of Pocket Billiards

Years ago, ESPN, in it's infancy, aired a series with Willie and Fats. Willie shows a mild disgust with Fats, you can see it in his face that he thinks Fats is a joke.

BTW Chris Berman and Allen Hopkins, still in their 20's, do the commentary and Charle Urissiti stll has hair! Pretty cool.

Mike
 
poolpro said:
[

QUOTE]


That is my whole point. I mean I play pretty good, but nowhere near the level of the top players. So, I DO NOT deserve the same amount of respect as these guys. So, I would expect more than a couple of people to say otherwise if, for some unknown reason, everybody started claiming I was as good or better than the pros. The same needs to be understood when it comes to fats. He did a lot to promote this game, even though it was mostly to line his own pockets, but he was not the best, or really even one of the best. It is not fair that he gets credit for being the single most talented player for the entire history of the sport without ever winning a single title championship. Thats all.

Respect is a big word. Even in a trade where your working with others, I expect to be treated equally to others that may have better skills than I. We all have better this and that than the next person.
Wonder how many animals Mosconi saved in his life. Fats gave to us way more than Mosconi.
I look at Efren and see a complete man, not a one dimensional person of talent only. I spoke to a United Airlines gal while making a reservation just two days ago, she was in Manila and knew of him and how he would rather help others than fix his teeth.
Mosconi had one great talent, Fats had too many to mention.
Jealousy has always been an issue amongst pool players, their thinking, if I am better than you then I'm smarter and a better person, we all know that answer. Fats was better than Mosconi in every area except high runs. Fats gave us more than Willie could even of thought of.
Mosconi gave us titles and high runs, Fats gave us life and something special, I put him in the same catagory as Rodney Dangerfield, Johnathan Winters, Bob Dylan, Red Skelton, they are always 100% who they are.
 
Island Drive said:
Respect is a big word. Even in a trade where your working with others, I expect to be treated equally to others that may have better skills than I. We all have better this and that than the next person.
Wonder how many animals Mosconi saved in his life. Fats gave to us way more than Mosconi.
I look at Efren and see a complete man, not a one dimensional person of talent only. I spoke to a United Airlines gal while making a reservation just two days ago, she was in Manila and knew of him and how he would rather help others than fix his teeth.
Mosconi had one great talent, Fats had too many to mention.
Jealousy has always been an issue amongst pool players, their thinking, if I am better than you then I'm smarter and a better person, we all know that answer. Fats was better than Mosconi in every area except high runs. Fats gave us more than Willie could even of thought of.
Mosconi gave us titles and high runs, Fats gave us life and something special, I put him in the same catagory as Rodney Dangerfield, Johnathan Winters, Bob Dylan, Red Skelton, they are always 100% who they are.

I think you hit the nail on the head!
 
freddy the beard said:
Fats could have probably beaten Gleason one hand to two. Gleason wasnt even a short-stop. He could only play straight-pool and his rated speed was that he could get into the second rack -- a twenty to 30 ball runner, tops. I hung in Miami the whole time Jackie was down there, so I was well aware of his speed. A less-than-short-stop named Jimmy Jackson beat him out of about 4k down there. After that, he seldom played anybody who could play for money. I also got to see Fatty play. Fatty could play.

the Beard

Thank you Freddy

I saw Fats play in the summer of '61(Aug I think)
he was still New York Fats in those days, but not for much longer.

He was playing Clem Metz and getting a spot of 8 to 6, after two
long days, the dif was either 1 or 2 games
<the esteemed Beard might care to comment on just how good
Clem played in the early '60s>

Fast forward 30-ish years, Clem told me Fats was laying down for a bigger bet at a later time, Clem declined, no easy mark, thanks anyway.

Clem's assesment as of 1961:
He could beat Fats, but could not spot him in 1pocket
Fats would beat Mosconi in one pocket or Bank Pool
No human, living or dead, could beat Mosconi at 14.1

Dale
 
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berlowmj said:
Who would win? Did they ever play? This question was inspired by the great skills I observed among the gamblers at DCC tonight. They also have nerves of steel & appear oblivious to distractions.
You've read many great posts, especially from guys like Jay Helfert and Freddy the Beard who actually witnessed Fats shooting.

Virtually every story you hear about Fats is wrong or misleading. I'm glad we have Freddy and Jay to keep us straight.

Now, for my one and only story which many people know. The Wide World of Sports staged the Willie vs. Fats matchups. Matchups, I say. They played several times, not just once. Willie won almost every set. I say "almost" because Fats on the third or fourth time they played, Fats won a set. They played all different games, 8-ball (lose on any foul on the 8-ball), 9-ball, 7-ball, etc. And they usually played three sets, one set of a different game each. I never saw one where Willie didn't win at least 2 of the 3 sets. And the first time Fats actually won a set, Willie acknowledged that Fats had played well.

But... there's a DVD going around, on one of those fateful matchups... Fatty wins the 7-ball set, and it may have been the only set they played at that particular matchup. Fats was on Willie like crazy during the match, with Willie even getting up and leaving for a few minutes. But, after the last ball was dropped, Willie looked devasted. And Willie Mosconi, 70+ years old broke down and cried. But Fats came to his rescue. Fats ensured the audience that Willie Mosconi, was a very proud man who "don't like losing to nobody anytime," and that Mosconi was "The Greatest Pool Player that evuh lived." As brash as Fatty was, giving Willie his propers showed how much of a man he really was.

Fred
 
Island Drive said:
Respect is a big word. Even in a trade where your working with others, I expect to be treated equally to others that may have better skills than I. We all have better this and that than the next person.
Wonder how many animals Mosconi saved in his life. Fats gave to us way more than Mosconi.
I look at Efren and see a complete man, not a one dimensional person of talent only. I spoke to a United Airlines gal while making a reservation just two days ago, she was in Manila and knew of him and how he would rather help others than fix his teeth.
Mosconi had one great talent, Fats had too many to mention.
Jealousy has always been an issue amongst pool players, their thinking, if I am better than you then I'm smarter and a better person, we all know that answer. Fats was better than Mosconi in every area except high runs. Fats gave us more than Willie could even of thought of.
Mosconi gave us titles and high runs, Fats gave us life and something special, I put him in the same catagory as Rodney Dangerfield, Johnathan Winters, Bob Dylan, Red Skelton, they are always 100% who they are.

Great post here and you've only scratched the surface.
 
Cornerman said:
You've read many great posts, especially from guys like Jay Helfert and Freddy the Beard who actually witnessed Fats shooting.

Virtually every story you hear about Fats is wrong or misleading. I'm glad we have Freddy and Jay to keep us straight.

Now, for my one and only story which many people know. The Wide World of Sports staged the Willie vs. Fats matchups. Matchups, I say. They played several times, not just once. Willie won almost every set. I say "almost" because Fats on the third or fourth time they played, Fats won a set. They played all different games, 8-ball (lose on any foul on the 8-ball), 9-ball, 7-ball, etc. And they usually played three sets, one set of a different game each. I never saw one where Willie didn't win at least 2 of the 3 sets. And the first time Fats actually won a set, Willie acknowledged that Fats had played well.

But... there's a DVD going around, on one of those fateful matchups... Fatty wins the 7-ball set, and it may have been the only set they played at that particular matchup. Fats was on Willie like crazy during the match, with Willie even getting up and leaving for a few minutes. But, after the last ball was dropped, Willie looked devasted. And Willie Mosconi, 70+ years old broke down and cried. But Fats came to his rescue. Fats ensured the audience that Willie Mosconi, was a very proud man who "don't like losing to nobody anytime," and that Mosconi was "The Greatest Pool Player that evuh lived." As brash as Fatty was, giving Willie his propers showed how much of a man he really was.

Fred

7 Ball had a little One Pocket type twist to it, that had Mosconi flustered. Fats used that to his advantage and out moved Willie. And Fats had heart as he showed here. He was a soft touch for almost any player when he came into the big money later in life.
 
Easy bite

One of the highlights of my pool career was a $20 bill Fats gave me when I was broke in Johnston city. A $20 bill was available to all the young broke kids that were hanging around down there. In the early "60s, $20 was a serious bite. Of course I never paid it back, but he got even by getting me to "second" every lie he would tell about his "amazing" exploits in Chicago. Pool's greatest personality.

the Beard
 
I am sure that he made a lot of banks, but you say you him play a dozen times in Jonston City, How many times did he win? Fats absolutely NEVER one a pro title. NEVER. So I think it is unfair to even compare him to willie Mosconi who won 14 championships in 15 years. The guy loved to brag, why would he choose to not win a title and have real bragging rights? Are you telling me he just didn't feel like winning a real event. You said yourself he was already there and playing. I never said the guy could not play. Hell, I doubt I would want to bet against him, and I think I am pretty good. I just think that it is a shame that he is usually the only name a non player knows, when he was outclassed by all of the top pros. It is kinda like Anna Kournakova in tennis. I know barely anything about tennis, but I know who she is because she is in videos and calandars and she is cute and has gotten a lot of attention because of it. She is a great tennis player by most standards, but she doesn't win tournaments against the top pros. I could not tell you the names of three tennis players, but I know who she is.

From what I heard from an old timer who knew Fats very well, he never wanted to win ANY titles or tournaments. He was out there to make money, and he made much more money hustling, and MAKING PEOPLE THINK that he couldn't play. That's why his mouth made him so much money. Fats was a great player, and he was a smart one too.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
From what I heard from an old timer who knew Fats very well, he never wanted to win ANY titles or tournaments. He was out there to make money, and he made much more money hustling, and MAKING PEOPLE THINK that he couldn't play. That's why his mouth made him so much money. Fats was a great player, and he was a smart one too.

Fats response to a bystander who asked him how many trophies he had won,
"Trophies, what trophies? The only trophies I want are the ones with pictures of Presidents on them". I guess that sums it up.
 
Cornerman said:
You've read many great posts, especially from guys like Jay Helfert and Freddy the Beard who actually witnessed Fats shooting.

Virtually every story you hear about Fats is wrong or misleading. I'm glad we have Freddy and Jay to keep us straight.

Now, for my one and only story which many people know. The Wide World of Sports staged the Willie vs. Fats matchups. Matchups, I say. They played several times, not just once. Willie won almost every set. I say "almost" because Fats on the third or fourth time they played, Fats won a set. They played all different games, 8-ball (lose on any foul on the 8-ball), 9-ball, 7-ball, etc. And they usually played three sets, one set of a different game each. I never saw one where Willie didn't win at least 2 of the 3 sets. And the first time Fats actually won a set, Willie acknowledged that Fats had played well.

But... there's a DVD going around, on one of those fateful matchups... Fatty wins the 7-ball set, and it may have been the only set they played at that particular matchup. Fats was on Willie like crazy during the match, with Willie even getting up and leaving for a few minutes. But, after the last ball was dropped, Willie looked devasted. And Willie Mosconi, 70+ years old broke down and cried. But Fats came to his rescue. Fats ensured the audience that Willie Mosconi, was a very proud man who "don't like losing to nobody anytime," and that Mosconi was "The Greatest Pool Player that evuh lived." As brash as Fatty was, giving Willie his propers showed how much of a man he really was.

Fred


Fascinating story, Fred. Thanks. It never made it into Mosconi's autobiography, for obvious reasons. Mosconi doesn't get a lot of respect on this board, which is kind of surprising, but maybe shouldn't be. He wasn't a very friendly guy.

I take others' word for it that Fats could have beaten Willie at one pocket or banks, but I think we should remember that Willie didn't PLAY one pocket or banks. They're not games that you can get good at without playing them often. Given his skill at 14.1 - untouchable in his era - does anybody doubt that he could have been a top notch one pocket player or banker if he focused on it? He made his living playing 14.1 tournaments and exhibitions, by and large didn't gamble, and scorned what he called "short rack games".
 
Fats was light years behind Mosoni, the fact that people
to this day debate said fact is a testament to his personality and charisma.
 
Rich93 said:
Fascinating story, Fred. Thanks. It never made it into Mosconi's autobiography, for obvious reasons. Mosconi doesn't get a lot of respect on this board, which is kind of surprising, but maybe shouldn't be. He wasn't a very friendly guy.

I take others' word for it that Fats could have beaten Willie at one pocket or banks, but I think we should remember that Willie didn't PLAY one pocket or banks. They're not games that you can get good at without playing them often. Given his skill at 14.1 - untouchable in his era - does anybody doubt that he could have been a top notch one pocket player or banker if he focused on it? He made his living playing 14.1 tournaments and exhibitions, by and large didn't gamble, and scorned what he called "short rack games".

He would have buried Fats in 9-Ball, but Fats was to smart to play him. Mosconi thought 9-Ball was a joke, far too easy for him to bother with. Willie had one memorable 9-Ball game against Nicky Vach (a good hustler) on a 10' table in Philly. He gave Nicky the 5 and the Break. A huge spot, in fact everyone thought it was the nuts for Nicky. But Nicky struggled with his break shot and Willie kept running out.

When it was all over Nicky was broke and Mosconi had outrun the nuts, although he didn't know it. This one match-up was legendary and no pool hustler ever asked Willie to play 9-Ball again. I doubt any player of that era could have beaten Willie playing 9-Ball, including Lassiter. Of course it was not a tournament game and Willie wasn't much for gambling. He must have really been goaded into playing with Nicky, who was one of the premier hustlers of his time.
 
Early in Minnesota Fats' career, he came to a pool room in California, looking for a little action. Here is a post about it:

When I was a young kid living in Anaheim, I used to hang out at a pool room near my home...Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and Joe Balsis were just a few of the regulars, and even Irving Crane was known to pop in from time to time.

Well, one day, this big fat man walks in, dressed real sharp, full of confidence, and he calmly reaches into his pocket and pulls out this gigantic wad, just for the flash effect. My eyes got bigger and bigger as I watched him trying to match up with the homeboys. After a lot of back-and-forth banter, much to my disappointment, I knew nobody was going to take a shot at the big man, bank roll and all. Coming to the same realization, he picked up his case and started heading for the exit.

Somebody yelled out a wisecrack, trying to get his goat, probably one last-ditch effort to get him to stay and play. I thought he was going to just ignore the smart-aleck comment and leave, but when he reached the front door, he paused, turned around and said, "Boys, the only difference between me and everybody else is that everybody else drives around in a Volkswagen and Minnesota Fats drives around in a Duesenberg."


What a funny guy! :D

JAM
 
Rich93 said:
Fascinating story, Fred. Thanks. It never made it into Mosconi's autobiography, for obvious reasons. Mosconi doesn't get a lot of respect on this board, which is kind of surprising, but maybe shouldn't be. He wasn't a very friendly guy.

I take others' word for it that Fats could have beaten Willie at one pocket or banks, but I think we should remember that Willie didn't PLAY one pocket or banks. They're not games that you can get good at without playing them often. Given his skill at 14.1 - untouchable in his era - does anybody doubt that he could have been a top notch one pocket player or banker if he focused on it? He made his living playing 14.1 tournaments and exhibitions, by and large didn't gamble, and scorned what he called "short rack games".
Makes me appreciate Efren just that much more in comparison!
 
JAM said:
Early in Minnesota Fats' career, he came to a pool room in California, looking for a little action. Here is a post about it:

When I was a young kid living in Anaheim, I used to hang out at a pool room near my home...Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and Joe Balsis were just a few of the regulars, and even Irving Crane was known to pop in from time to time.

Well, one day, this big fat man walks in, dressed real sharp, full of confidence, and he calmly reaches into his pocket and pulls out this gigantic wad, just for the flash effect. My eyes got bigger and bigger as I watched him trying to match up with the homeboys. After a lot of back-and-forth banter, much to my disappointment, I knew nobody was going to take a shot at the big man, bank roll and all. Coming to the same realization, he picked up his case and started heading for the exit.

Somebody yelled out a wisecrack, trying to get his goat, probably one last-ditch effort to get him to stay and play. I thought he was going to just ignore the smart-aleck comment and leave, but when he reached the front door, he paused, turned around and said, "Boys, the only difference between me and everybody else is that everybody else drives around in a Volkswagen and Minnesota Fats drives around in a Duesenberg."


What a funny guy! :D

JAM

Jam,

I can't imagine there was ever a poolroom where the above players hung out in California. I mean Balsis lived in Pennsylvania and only traveled for tournaments. Caras lived back East as well and was only on the road for exhibitions. And Crane lived and worked in Rocheater, NY. Only Jimmy Moore ever spent much time around Los Angeles of the three.

It's a great story and Fat's may well have uttered this line, but very doubtful it took place in Anaheim, CA.
 
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