Tom4change
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I really think that you did the right thing. But I do agree that I would have given the money back to his wife because that guys a idiot.
Morality, Money and Pool. Where do you stand?
- Thread starter crawfish
- Start date
I did think of that
Remember, I was in the mountains. People are different where I am from. He might have really taken offence to giving it to the girl. Could have come across "greater than thou" and carried a fight with it. That might have been the ultimate slap in the face. Oh well, we might never know.
Remember, I was in the mountains. People are different where I am from. He might have really taken offence to giving it to the girl. Could have come across "greater than thou" and carried a fight with it. That might have been the ultimate slap in the face. Oh well, we might never know.
Jack Madden said:The bottom line isn't what "they" should or shouldn't do or if it was even a con. The bottom line is YOU have to live with your thoughts and feelings. For you this was the right decision. You don't need to guess if you did the right thing - it was the right thing for you -- you can sleep at night and it didn't cost you a dime
This is where it's at... imo. By the way, during all this where was the 5 yr old she came in with?
VonRhett said:
Gene should have never shown his high gear, no reason too other than ego. He might have won more, and this way it becomes a "hot" score. Capeche?
Jack would NEVER show his true speed!
joe, I find it kinda unbelievable that a shrink (that's your profession, right? or did I misremember) would know, even directly, how to find a hit for 500 bucks... in Ohio no less!?
I feel so innocent for saying that lol. I don't mean that I don't believe you, just that it's unbelievable.
I feel so innocent for saying that lol. I don't mean that I don't believe you, just that it's unbelievable.
JoeW said:
The price of human life continues its downward slide. Right now the price of a human slave is at the lowest point its been in 4000 years. Slave traders in Africa in the 1800s got the equivalent of $40,000 and today slaves can be purchased on the ivory coast for about $30.
I'll bet
I'll bet that in his line of work he could get a hit done for a pat on the back!
I know a few psychopaths. One was my best friend for years and we partnered in a venture or two. He had killed in war and peace and had little regard for human life. A good true and loyal friend who I knew beyond the faintest doubt had my back covered when he was behind me. Aside from that one little flaw and an extremely violent temper he embodies everything a person could possibly want in a friend.
When I think about it, most of my closest friends have marched to the beat of a different drummer in one manner or another.
Hu
I'll bet that in his line of work he could get a hit done for a pat on the back!
I know a few psychopaths. One was my best friend for years and we partnered in a venture or two. He had killed in war and peace and had little regard for human life. A good true and loyal friend who I knew beyond the faintest doubt had my back covered when he was behind me. Aside from that one little flaw and an extremely violent temper he embodies everything a person could possibly want in a friend.
When I think about it, most of my closest friends have marched to the beat of a different drummer in one manner or another.
Hu
CreeDo said:
CreeDo said:
I am a forensic psychologist and have worked in many of the prisons in Ohio. I taught Criminal Justice for over 25 years. Most of my professional work is with what we call behaviorally disordered people - and that is a nice way to put it. Lets just say that some of the people I know are not very nice.
Most of the stories I tell are first hand information or second hand where I know and trust the source. Youngstown was for many years known as "Little Chicago" for a very good reason and it is also one of the reasons I moved here. Currently we have five prisons in the area including a super max prison with security that you would not believe. One of my degrees is based on a study of psychopaths, the other is based on a study of consistently violent offenders -- all very interesting people.
BTW, I was also a recon marine in the 1960s. Kinda takes the shine off the idea that psychologists are touchy feely type people doesn't it.
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True, but word was getting out and he was afraid he was burned anyways. The first few times that someone that told money bags Gene was laying down, he quickly denied it. "I've been playing this buys for months - he's a dog" and similar.
But you're absolutely correct. Gene was thinking of today's payday, not tomorrows. Though he couldn't dip that well again, he also killed all other action in town.
Jay, when you coming back to the Bay Area? Are you making it to the Dave Piona Memorial Tourny??
-von
But you're absolutely correct. Gene was thinking of today's payday, not tomorrows. Though he couldn't dip that well again, he also killed all other action in town.
Jay, when you coming back to the Bay Area? Are you making it to the Dave Piona Memorial Tourny??
-von
jay helfert said:
naah
Naah, I always thought recon marines were touchy feely types.
I belong to a small group of outdoorsmen. One has his picture in Arnold's book, an exbodybuilder, big boy. Another was the muscle for some major players in the drug trade in his younger years. The list goes on and on and all have pretty impressive credentials including Nam, secret agent men, etc. Then there is one I will call Ed. He did things in the military that would curl most folks hair or straighten curly haired people's hair! One of the things he did in civilian life was to dig out hibernating bears and check on them, and bears wake up now and then all winter long. You never know when you are going hand to hand with a griz. He has had a handful of other equally interesting jobs. My point: Ed is the smallest of the group I believe, extremely quiet and mild mannered, and almost certainly the nicest guy in the group. He is also the one I would least want annoyed with me. You can't judge anyone by appearances!
Hu
JoeW said:
Naah, I always thought recon marines were touchy feely types.
I belong to a small group of outdoorsmen. One has his picture in Arnold's book, an exbodybuilder, big boy. Another was the muscle for some major players in the drug trade in his younger years. The list goes on and on and all have pretty impressive credentials including Nam, secret agent men, etc. Then there is one I will call Ed. He did things in the military that would curl most folks hair or straighten curly haired people's hair! One of the things he did in civilian life was to dig out hibernating bears and check on them, and bears wake up now and then all winter long. You never know when you are going hand to hand with a griz. He has had a handful of other equally interesting jobs. My point: Ed is the smallest of the group I believe, extremely quiet and mild mannered, and almost certainly the nicest guy in the group. He is also the one I would least want annoyed with me. You can't judge anyone by appearances!
Hu
I think you did the right thing in some shape or form. Compassion or conscience is very hard to find in alot of people these days.
Back when I had just turned 16, I was out with my dad, and we hit all our normal Saturday stops like normal. Unbeknownst to my old man, I was at one of those places the night prior and had been playing a guy that would not quit, nor win. What started out at 10 a game led to 20 which led to a sizeable deficit for this guy.
I kept telling him that he should quit and play me sober. That pissed him off. He said it was his money and he would play how he wanted. After a few more racks, I tried to talk him into pulling up again. At this point he is down 260. He wanted to play double or nothing and I said okay. My buddy who is about 12 years older than me shook his head and said this is gonna get ugly, I can see it coming.
Well, I won and the guy paid up. After that it did get ugly. The guy says he is gonna take a tire iron to me in the parking lot. My buddy slammed a shotgun shell on the table and says.. " I got the gun to go with it". Cant't remember if I was more afraid of what was gonna happen there or potential first trip to jail. The guy backed off and we were able to leave peacably after the shell incident.
Forwarding back to the next day, Saturday, as me and my dad were talking, this same guy from Friday night comes up to me. He was sober, but I was still apprehensive, when the guy suddenly appologizes for the way he acted the night before.
My dad started grilling me, assuming I had done something to provoke him. The guy sates it was an issue between us and that was that. My old man says he has a right to know what happened seeing his son was involved. The guy told him what happened, and my dad was telling me to give him back the money. The guy said he was given several chances to escape the match but didn't take the advice and said the money was mine to keep.
After the guy walked away my dad makes me cough up the cash, telling me that no 16 year old needs to be carrying 500-600 bucks around. He said he would dispense it to me on an as needed basis. Took me two damned years to see that money.
Back when I had just turned 16, I was out with my dad, and we hit all our normal Saturday stops like normal. Unbeknownst to my old man, I was at one of those places the night prior and had been playing a guy that would not quit, nor win. What started out at 10 a game led to 20 which led to a sizeable deficit for this guy.
I kept telling him that he should quit and play me sober. That pissed him off. He said it was his money and he would play how he wanted. After a few more racks, I tried to talk him into pulling up again. At this point he is down 260. He wanted to play double or nothing and I said okay. My buddy who is about 12 years older than me shook his head and said this is gonna get ugly, I can see it coming.
Well, I won and the guy paid up. After that it did get ugly. The guy says he is gonna take a tire iron to me in the parking lot. My buddy slammed a shotgun shell on the table and says.. " I got the gun to go with it". Cant't remember if I was more afraid of what was gonna happen there or potential first trip to jail. The guy backed off and we were able to leave peacably after the shell incident.
Forwarding back to the next day, Saturday, as me and my dad were talking, this same guy from Friday night comes up to me. He was sober, but I was still apprehensive, when the guy suddenly appologizes for the way he acted the night before.
My dad started grilling me, assuming I had done something to provoke him. The guy sates it was an issue between us and that was that. My old man says he has a right to know what happened seeing his son was involved. The guy told him what happened, and my dad was telling me to give him back the money. The guy said he was given several chances to escape the match but didn't take the advice and said the money was mine to keep.
After the guy walked away my dad makes me cough up the cash, telling me that no 16 year old needs to be carrying 500-600 bucks around. He said he would dispense it to me on an as needed basis. Took me two damned years to see that money.
John Barton said:
another quick point to make, and I just kinda picked this post to respond to arbitrarily, lets say I rob a guy for all he's worth as opposed to giving his money back and letting him off. now, you guys mind you are not god and not all knowing, who knows, maybe by robbing a guy for all he's worth one night will in fact make him realize it's stupid to gamble and down the line you would have stopped him from losing say his car or something much larger than a mere 500 or 1000.
the overall point is i don't think it's perfectly reasonable to assume you are doing a guy a favor by losing money back to him, maybe you are really giving him a false sense of security for a future incident. and, as i said earlier, i feel doing something out of pity for someone is one of the worst things you can do, not only that, you say you are doing it for him but you are probably doing it for selfish reasons, ie you dont want to feel bad. so now you are selfish and have no money.
think of it like going to your own private beach and feeding a sea lion fish every day. now he finally gets used to you after months of this and a month down the road some asshole shoots the thing because it allowed a human to get close to it, you didn't do this thing any favors..... i see this pattern all the time and i just think people need to realize they may be more barbaric when they are doing what they think is right or nice, i just feel you need to think first..... and if you did and you are fine with it all thats awesome, im sure you did a great job.
CreeDo said:yeah, your pic had me fooled pretty good Joe
Your job sounds interesting. Does forensic psychology mean the same thing as being a profiler, or whatever they call the guys who work in ISU?
Profiling is one of the things I do and I have helped catch a few guys. Unlike TV, we miss more than we catch. Some of the things you see on some of the TV shows are similar to what we do. I specialize in the use of hypnosis to help recover memories. This information cannot be used in court but it can help clear a case when it helps lead to "other" evidence. I did not work with the FBI but I did work with local and state police agencies.
Aside from the fact that horrible crimes are involved, profiling itself is an interesting but inexact method that always involves much more team work than is shown on TV. It is basically a last resort when the case is dead ended.
Cops are, by and large, much better investigators than people realize, at least when they get serious. Usually when I have helped build a profile cops learn more about the things to look for in some types of cases and then people like me are not needed, if we are good we work ourselves out of a job.
Hey Shooting Arts, I think we hung out with similar kinds of guys. There definitely are some interesting people in this country.
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crawfish said:
Try to think about why you really did what you did. I know that the very fact that you posted this thread indicates to me you lost the money back to this guy for selfish reasons, to make yourself feel better and perhaps to have others see what you saw in yourself at that moment of supposed altruism. Having others see the compasionate behavior you exhibted will in turn make you feel better, a type of self affirmation. Problem is, you should already know you're a good person (I think), and not have to do things like this. Rob the guy, spend the money on what you want, and then go help an old lady cross the street or something (without telling anybody about it). Everyone comes out ahead in this scenario. Just something to think about.
I would not have lost on purpose. I also wouldn't like to play with that kind of family drama happening since its not enjoyable for me.
If I thought it was a con for one second, I'd keep beating him.
If I thought this was a sincere wifey appearance, I would have quit right away, handed his lady a twenty for dinner, and said, "I'm tired. I think its better for you both if I leave now rather than later. Have a good evening."
Some cons are not so subtle. I played an older guy a set of 9-ball a long time ago. I had him 5-1 or 5-2 going to 7, was preparing to break, and hear him groan. I look over at him and he's clutching his shoulder moaning and cooing like a dove. He starts in with the old football injury story that shows up out of nowhere with crippling pain and muscle spasms. Its criminals like this that give many of us the patron-vs-casino mentality. I'm somewhere in the middle I guess.
If I thought it was a con for one second, I'd keep beating him.
If I thought this was a sincere wifey appearance, I would have quit right away, handed his lady a twenty for dinner, and said, "I'm tired. I think its better for you both if I leave now rather than later. Have a good evening."
Some cons are not so subtle. I played an older guy a set of 9-ball a long time ago. I had him 5-1 or 5-2 going to 7, was preparing to break, and hear him groan. I look over at him and he's clutching his shoulder moaning and cooing like a dove. He starts in with the old football injury story that shows up out of nowhere with crippling pain and muscle spasms. Its criminals like this that give many of us the patron-vs-casino mentality. I'm somewhere in the middle I guess.
Regarding enzo's posts: Acts of charity and compassion are designed to help those in need. These acts are morally praiseworthy despite the fact that they might reinforce dependence or have unforseen negative consequences. If I donate money to the "Little Sisters of the Poor" and they dispense food to someone who trades it for booze or drugs, does that mean my act was pointless or counterproductive? Of course not. There's always a chance that charity and compassion can be abused, but this doesn't lessen their importance. It does mean that we should be wise about when and how we dispense our charity. Crawfish made a judgment call, and I see no reason to question him. I agree that charitable acts done for selfish reasons (e.g., tax deductions) don't have the same moral worth, but I don't see any reason to think Crawfish acted from such motives.
The fact that gambling was involved does complicate the matter. Several of you have pointed out that a casino or a race track certainly wouldn't give back money even if a losing patron faces severe hardship. Why should it be different in a pool game or a card game that has no corporate element? I think the difference is that the business world operates on principles of pursuing self-interest and respecting people's rights, whereas genuine charity goes beyond these principles. The idea of a "walking stick," which is admirable as a personal gesture in the pool room, would be absurd in the context of corporate gambling.
The fact that gambling was involved does complicate the matter. Several of you have pointed out that a casino or a race track certainly wouldn't give back money even if a losing patron faces severe hardship. Why should it be different in a pool game or a card game that has no corporate element? I think the difference is that the business world operates on principles of pursuing self-interest and respecting people's rights, whereas genuine charity goes beyond these principles. The idea of a "walking stick," which is admirable as a personal gesture in the pool room, would be absurd in the context of corporate gambling.