Morality, Money and Pool. Where do you stand?

[Blackjack]

In all honesty, I was almost mad at myself that I didn't torture the guy and worry about it later. Because, like most of you said, he probably went off somewhere to someone else. I guess I am trying to justify (to myself) my actions. I almost felt weak for giving him some cash back. But, to the people who have no problem with it, morally, at all--- Man, that's pretty hardcore. If the thought never crosses your mind about leaving a whole family short on bill money, I feel for you.

I'm not that vicious - at least not anymore. There was a time I wouldn't have thought twice about it. Those days are over - thank God.

This whole situation reminds me a quote from a famous movie - I'm just posting this because I think that it belongs in the topic of discussion, it doesn't mean I am judging you for your choice, in fact I admire you for the choice that you made. I just think that this situation was addressed in TCOM...

This quote comes after Vincent dumped a game to the old guy with the hole in his throat...

"You never --- You never ease off on somebody like that...not when there's money involved. That's the problem with mercy, kid, it just ain't professional." - Fast Eddie Felson

 

[pulzcul]

I was just curious how MOST people would have handled this situation. I was visiting a friend, in the mountains, and decided to look for a little pool action one morning. I came upon this place near Cherokee (I won't mention the name of it due to the circumstances) that had breakfast and four old school tables. So I ate and hit some balls. In walked this fellow and his friend. "Wanna play a ring game? We usually play one on Saturdays." "Sure." I said. So, we began $2 and $2. I was steadily winning and was up around $50 or so. One guy got out. "Wanna just you and me play five a game?" Player Unknown (Young fellow, say 22-25 years old) says. So there we went. Five became ten. Ten became twenty. I was now up around $250. He doesn't have the last twenty, so he calls his wife on the phone. In walks this pregnant wife with their five year old daughter. She hands him two hundred. "I know you can win, honey." I hear her whisper. Now, without sounding too "greater than thou," this guy's got NO chance of coming out ahead. I also hear her whisper that the two hundred was out of her first paycheck at the grocery store. I was torn. And, now I was up around $3something. I didn't want to embarrass the guy in front of his wife. He was a great guy. What would you do?


Here was my solution. I slowly started losing. I made a big scene of it and used every avenue to let him make some balls. When it got back to where I was up only about $75, I quit. As the girl was walking out, she turned to me and said "Thanks, that money was going towards our new apartment. He couldn't beat you, huh? I appreciate it." It was as if she knew. Know what I mean? Anyway, talking about karma, I just couldn't do it, you know? I want to hear what you guys would've done. Please be honest.

TAP TAP TAP sleep well. Look into your own heart to see whats right.

 

[Neil]

................

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Which is why I would have given him a lecture.

....better than shooting him in the face (Julius' usual ending after he laid this down).

 

[bigskyjake]

I would say that this cat is an easy mark, you should go back next week w/ a fake mustache and get your money back and then some

 

[jgpool]

You did right

In all honesty, I was almost mad at myself that I didn't torture the guy and worry about it later. Because, like most of you said, he probably went off somewhere to someone else. I guess I am trying to justify (to myself) my actions. I almost felt weak for giving him some cash back. But, to the people who have no problem with it, morally, at all--- Man, that's pretty hardcore. If the thought never crosses your mind about leaving a whole family short on bill money, I feel for you.

Don't have regrets. Don't be mad at yourself. You showed who you are and I don't know if I would have been as compassionate as you were. I would hope so. As far as him learning a lesson nobody on this forum knows what he learned. If you read John Barton's story of how he was repaid, John probably never thought that he would be repaid and how. We can only guess if this guy knew what was going on and just let it happen so he could get out from where he had just buried his family. There are hundreds if not thousands of hypothetical outcomes. Crawfish you did what was right for you. Rep coming your way, I want you on my team any day!!!

 

[crawfish]

Don't have regrets. Don't be mad at yourself. You showed who you are and I don't know if I would have been as compassionate as you were. I would hope so. As far as him learning a lesson nobody on this forum knows what he learned. If you read John Barton's story of how he was repaid, John probably never thought that he would be repaid and how. We can only guess if this guy knew what was going on and just let it happen so he could get out from where he had just buried his family. There are hundreds if not thousands of hypothetical outcomes. Crawfish you did what was right for you. Rep coming your way, I want you on my team any day!!!

This whole scenario is quite interesting to me, now. Thanks, The Craw.

 

[Kyzyl]

I was just curious how MOST people would have handled this situation. I was visiting a friend, in the mountains, and decided to look for a little pool action one morning. I came upon this place near Cherokee (I won't mention the name of it due to the circumstances) that had breakfast and four old school tables. So I ate and hit some balls. In walked this fellow and his friend. "Wanna play a ring game? We usually play one on Saturdays." "Sure." I said. So, we began $2 and $2. I was steadily winning and was up around $50 or so. One guy got out. "Wanna just you and me play five a game?" Player Unknown (Young fellow, say 22-25 years old) says. So there we went. Five became ten. Ten became twenty. I was now up around $250. He doesn't have the last twenty, so he calls his wife on the phone. In walks this pregnant wife with their five year old daughter. She hands him two hundred. "I know you can win, honey." I hear her whisper. Now, without sounding too "greater than thou," this guy's got NO chance of coming out ahead. I also hear her whisper that the two hundred was out of her first paycheck at the grocery store. I was torn. And, now I was up around $3something. I didn't want to embarrass the guy in front of his wife. He was a great guy. What would you do?


Here was my solution. I slowly started losing. I made a big scene of it and used every avenue to let him make some balls. When it got back to where I was up only about $75, I quit. As the girl was walking out, she turned to me and said "Thanks, that money was going towards our new apartment. He couldn't beat you, huh? I appreciate it." It was as if she knew. Know what I mean? Anyway, talking about karma, I just couldn't do it, you know? I want to hear what you guys would've done. Please be honest.

I think you did the right thing. I thought about a situation where you won all his money, then gave the speech and then gave his money back but.... Then he might not take it back, for pride issues. So I really think you did the right thing, it is good to know that there are still some nice, caring, honest people out there. Even if he does go do the exact same thing to someone else, then you can move on knowing you did the right thing, and it will be hanging over someone else's conscience and not yours.

Rep for you. Good Call!

 

[fanthom]

I was just curious how MOST people would have handled this situation. I was visiting a friend, in the mountains, and decided to look for a little pool action one morning. I came upon this place near Cherokee (I won't mention the name of it due to the circumstances) that had breakfast and four old school tables. So I ate and hit some balls. In walked this fellow and his friend. "Wanna play a ring game? We usually play one on Saturdays." "Sure." I said. So, we began $2 and $2. I was steadily winning and was up around $50 or so. One guy got out. "Wanna just you and me play five a game?" Player Unknown (Young fellow, say 22-25 years old) says. So there we went. Five became ten. Ten became twenty. I was now up around $250. He doesn't have the last twenty, so he calls his wife on the phone. In walks this pregnant wife with their five year old daughter. She hands him two hundred. "I know you can win, honey." I hear her whisper. Now, without sounding too "greater than thou," this guy's got NO chance of coming out ahead. I also hear her whisper that the two hundred was out of her first paycheck at the grocery store. I was torn. And, now I was up around $3something. I didn't want to embarrass the guy in front of his wife. He was a great guy. What would you do?


Here was my solution. I slowly started losing. I made a big scene of it and used every avenue to let him make some balls. When it got back to where I was up only about $75, I quit. As the girl was walking out, she turned to me and said "Thanks, that money was going towards our new apartment. He couldn't beat you, huh? I appreciate it." It was as if she knew. Know what I mean? Anyway, talking about karma, I just couldn't do it, you know? I want to hear what you guys would've done. Please be honest.

Dude, con or no-con, it's called conscience. God speaks to us through conscience. If you don't believe in God, God spoke to you . . . and you listened. Sleep well my friend, you've done well.

 

[thebighurt]

I was just curious how MOST people would have handled this situation. I was visiting a friend, in the mountains, and decided to look for a little pool action one morning. I came upon this place near Cherokee (I won't mention the name of it due to the circumstances) that had breakfast and four old school tables. So I ate and hit some balls. In walked this fellow and his friend. "Wanna play a ring game? We usually play one on Saturdays." "Sure." I said. So, we began $2 and $2. I was steadily winning and was up around $50 or so. One guy got out. "Wanna just you and me play five a game?" Player Unknown (Young fellow, say 22-25 years old) says. So there we went. Five became ten. Ten became twenty. I was now up around $250. He doesn't have the last twenty, so he calls his wife on the phone. In walks this pregnant wife with their five year old daughter. She hands him two hundred. "I know you can win, honey." I hear her whisper. Now, without sounding too "greater than thou," this guy's got NO chance of coming out ahead. I also hear her whisper that the two hundred was out of her first paycheck at the grocery store. I was torn. And, now I was up around $3something. I didn't want to embarrass the guy in front of his wife. He was a great guy. What would you do?


Here was my solution. I slowly started losing. I made a big scene of it and used every avenue to let him make some balls. When it got back to where I was up only about $75, I quit. As the girl was walking out, she turned to me and said "Thanks, that money was going towards our new apartment. He couldn't beat you, huh? I appreciate it." It was as if she knew. Know what I mean? Anyway, talking about karma, I just couldn't do it, you know? I want to hear what you guys would've done. Please be honest.

about 10 years ago I walk into the bowling alley that i had started playing pool at 5 years earlier. I hadn't been there in over 3 years. A few guys remembered me and came over and said this guy was looking to gamble. He didn't look like he had alot of money so I walked over and asked if he wanted to gamble just to see. He says he wants to play $ 5 a game 8 ball. We were not playing ball in hand rules back then so the first game I am on the 8 ball and it is behind the headstring and he scratches on purpose and says I have to kick at the ball. I said O.K. this is how we are going to play. He wins the first game and I lay $ 5 on the next table and go to rack the balls and he says lets play for $ 10. I say O.K.. I win the 2nd game and he put $ 10 on the next table and goes to rack the balls. He says play for $ 20 and I say O.K. I win and I see him reach in his pocket pull out his money to put $ 20 on the next table and it looks like he only has $ 10 left. I already broke the balls for the next game and we are playing for $ 20. I am thinking to myself here comes a problem. Sure enough I win and look at the next table and there is no $ 20, I tell him he has topay me for that game and he says he put it on the table. I am thinking here we go, and tell him he didn't and I am thinking he is broke and doesn't have it. All of a sudden he reaches into his other pocket and pulls out alot more money, pays me and asks to play for $ 50. I say O.K. It turnsout the guy can't make 2 balls the first game for $ 5 is the only one he won. I beat him 4 games for $ 50 and he pays each time. He bumps it to $ 100 and after 2 games I am up over $ 500 because it does not look like he has money and his girlfriend is looking sick. So now I feel guilty and when the guy goes to the bathroom I walked over and told his girlfriend he better get him out of here or I am going to take all his money. He comes out of the bathroom and she tells him to leave before he loses all the money he has on him. They get in a little argument and she gets him to leave. So for the hell of it I walk outside as they are leaving and they get into a brand new Mercedes and another guy who had been watching tells me that guy is loaded!!

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[jay helfert]

about 10 years ago I walk into the bowling alley that i had started playing pool at 5 years earlier. I hadn't been there in over 3 years. A few guys remembered me and came over and said this guy was looking to gamble. He didn't look like he had alot of money so I walked over and asked if he wanted to gamble just to see. He says he wants to play $ 5 a game 8 ball. We were not playing ball in hand rules back then so the first game I am on the 8 ball and it is behind the headstring and he scratches on purpose and says I have to kick at the ball. I said O.K. this is how we are going to play. He wins the first game and I lay $ 5 on the next table and go to rack the balls and he says lets play for $ 10. I say O.K.. I win the 2nd game and he put $ 10 on the next table and goes to rack the balls. He says play for $ 20 and I say O.K. I win and I see him reach in his pocket pull out his money to put $ 20 on the next table and it looks like he only has $ 10 left. I already broke the balls for the next game and we are playing for $ 20. I am thinking to myself here comes a problem. Sure enough I win and look at the next table and there is no $ 20, I tell him he has topay me for that game and he says he put it on the table. I am thinking here we go, and tell him he didn't and I am thinking he is broke and doesn't have it. All of a sudden he reaches into his other pocket and pulls out alot more money, pays me and asks to play for $ 50. I say O.K. It turnsout the guy can't make 2 balls the first game for $ 5 is the only one he won. I beat him 4 games for $ 50 and he pays each time. He bumps it to $ 100 and after 2 games I am up over $ 500 because it does not look like he has money and his girlfriend is looking sick. So now I feel guilty and when the guy goes to the bathroom I walked over and told his girlfriend he better get him out of here or I am going to take all his money. He comes out of the bathroom and she tells him to leave before he loses all the money he has on him. They get in a little argument and she gets him to leave. So for the hell of it I walk outside as they are leaving and they get into a brand new Mercedes and another guy who had been watching tells me that guy is loaded!!

Reminds me of a story. Years ago there was a plumber in L.A. who liked to play $5 9-Ball and would lose $50-75. Once in a while he would back someone for $100. That's it, his betting limit or so I thought. Jack Cooney starts hanging around this joint where the plumber hangs out. Only I know who Jack is. He lays down a stall for a couple of months, playing for 5 and 10 dollars, winning sometimes and losing others. He becomes a friendly rival of the plumber.

They begin to gamble cheap on a daily basis. No one wins more than $100 or $200 max. One day it all changes and Jack gets this guy to bet higher than he ever did before. He wins $12,000 that day and $10,000 more the next playing for $500 a game. It took him two months but he got the guy he wanted. And that was what made Jack Cooney unique. No, he didn't give any of it back either.

 

[Dawgie]

To answer to the original question - I would have taken his money and any more he may have wanted to bring to the table.

In pool - Mercy does not compute!

 

[Russ Chewning]

Back in the early 80's, I was playing this guy $5 8 ball on a bar box. After a few hours, I've got him $120 stuck. He, of course, has no chance and keeps racking the balls.

I happen to look over at the door and there stands a young pregnant girl holding a baby in her arms watching us intently with a big scowl on her face. I looked at the guy I'm playing, point at her, and say, "You know her?".

As soon as they make eye contact, he grunts, "Aw, S%$t!" and she makes a beeline for him. She starts in on him, accusing him of gambling AGAIN, starts crying, and asks him how he plans to feed her and the baby.
He says he's not down that much but is on a come back.

Finally, she says, "You want to gamble for something? Gamble for this!" and sets the baby on the table, turns around and heads for the door.

I'm standing there looking at this baby on the table and what's this guy do? He takes off after her and leaves the kid on the table! I yelled, "Whoa, whoa, whoa? He turns around and I point at the kid.

He ran back, picked the kid up and shot out the door. Never saw them again.

Would I have given the money back if she would have asked? Probably. I just wouldn't like that on my conscience.

I've lost a lot of action and money over the years from having a conscience. Once I've get to know someone, I've told many players that I won't gamble with them anymore because I felt like I was stealing and considered them a friend only to watch them go off like rockets to everyone else.

They're going to give it to someone!

Am I a bonehead or what?

Stones

Ahhh geez, man.. Talk about DOGGIN' it!

You had a chance to become a part of pool LEGEND!

She puts the baby on the table, and says gamble for THIS, and you're supposed to pause for about two or three seconds and say:

"I can't keep giving you the snaps if we're playing for the baby.."

or

"Something about this game smells rotten."

or

"Get the kid a beer, set him on the bar, and get your ass to the rack.."



Russ

 

[poolhustler]

I used to gamble with this kid who was a decent shot. It went back and forth for a while and then I started to get the best of him.

Last time I ever played him was, after beating him, he asked if he could pay me later because he had to get milk and diapers for his kid or his wife would kill him.

Never called him or talked to him again..........

Russ.........

 

[VonRhett]

Great story about crazy Jack, Jay!

Eugene the Machine did the same thing to a guy in Nashville, about 20 years ago. Spent over 3 months setting the guy up, playing $20 9-ball. The guy owned a chain of video stores and couldn't make 3-balls in a row. He was loaded, and loved to gamble BIG - provided he (thought) he had the nuts.

About once a week, Eugene would win a little, just to piss the guy off. Invariably he would start woofing about playing for "real money". Then the next time Eugene would lose it back, plus a little more. Same speech about betting it up.

Gene would even match up with someone else and dump - repeatedly - knowing that his mark was watching.

Eugene starts to lose more week after week, putting on one hell of great act. Tells the guy that his money man will be in town soon and they can get some serious cabbage on the table.

Well, Fast Forward another few weeks, and after days of woofing with Eugene's "stakehorse", they agree to 10 Ahead for 10K. (Genes alleged "stakehorse" didn't have more than 500 on him - just a friend from Chicago)

First Set - Gene would win 2, lose 1. Lose 2, win 3. Took 3.5 hours.
2nd Set - At first almost the same as Set 1. Gene was reminded the guy was good for 50K. He slowed waaaay down, let the guys coin get past the side twice, then slowly beat him. A loooong set.
3rd Set DOUBLE $$!! With 40K on the line, Eugene hit a gear. The guy had about 6-shots, each of them he was hooked. Didn't win a game.

All 3 sets could have been 10 and out. It was poetry in motion.

Cell phones, the internet, a preponderance of nits and general fear-of-living-in-the-2000's prohibits most roadies from pulling off something like this today.

Yes, I know it sounds like a bad movie, but I was there. And it happened more than you might think!

-von

 

[JoeW]

In my neck of the woods you can get someone killed for about $500.00. If a story like that came true around here even six months to a year later this would not be a nice place to be.

Fellow I know asked around about getting a guy beat up and hospitalized. The price was $250.00, Fellow backed off as the hitter, who was a known bad dude, might go too far. When asked why he changed his mind the guy said that he was bothered by the idea that his intended victim might be killed. The hitter replied, so what, it would only cost what I quoted you.

 

[ShootingArts]

life is cheap in some circles

In my neck of the woods you can get someone killed for about $500.00. If a story like that came true around here even six months to a year later this would not be a nice place to be.

Fellow I know asked around about getting a guy beat up and hospitalized. The price was $250.00, Fellow backed off as the hitter, who was a known bad dude, might go too far. When asked why he changed his mind the guy said that he was bothered by the idea that his intended victim might be killed. The hitter replied, so what, it would only cost what I quoted you.

I hired an older hand that was good at his job and just an old country boy like dozens more I have hired over the years, nothing seemed unusual about him. After he had been there a few weeks he mentioned he had a red robe in his closet. A few more weeks and he mentioned that he knew two brothers that would knock off anyone that annoyed me for $1500, black, white, red, or yellow, they didn't care. I felt sure that was a three way split and the brothers were actually working for $500 apiece. That has been awhile but it is amazing how cheaply some still value human life.

Hu

 

[JoeW]

The story about the hitter I told is about three years old. So I don't think the price has changed much. There is a little more to the story, Actually two people were involved the first guy knew where my friend could find a hitter and they both went to the bar to see the guy. My friend turned down the deal as indicated above. None-the-less about two months later the intended victim was severly beaten and was hospitalized for several weeks.

When my friend asked his friend if he paid for the contract for him, his friend said, "what do you care ,the problem is gone and you wern't involved. Leave it alone."

And so he did.

 

[ShootingArts]

favors

Funny what folks will do just to get closer to the throne. An old outlaw in Rapides parish could just mention that someone had earned his displeasure and a load of bricks would fall on them. The police considered him the head of organized crime but the funny thing was that he and they had a good working relationship. He middlemanned a lot of deals with the DA's office and helped them solve a lot of cases too. The authorities had no interest in disturbing the status quo.

Hu

The story about the hitter I told is about three years old. So I don't think the price has changed much. There is a little more to the story, Actually two people were involved the first guy knew where my friend could find a hitter and they both went to the bar to see the guy. My friend turned down the deal as indicated above. None-the-less about two months later the intended victim was severly beaten and was hospitalized for several weeks.

When my friend asked his friend if he paid for the contract for him, his friend said, "what do you care ,the problem is gone and you wern't involved. Leave it alone."

And so he did.