More 14.1

[Steve Lipsky]

Just to chime in with my feeble straight-pool skills, adding the following ball may change things. http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AVqn3BbHo2IXbA3MNao@

While the 13 is the most ideal break ball, with the new layout, you may choose to shoot the 13 first then play position on the 9 because the 1 does work as a break ball and, now, the balls are lying perfect to get on it. The point I'm trying to make here isn't necessarily for this particular layout (You may still shoot the 9 first, then the 2-1 - of course, this all depends on where the cue ball is), but that the most ideal break ball isn't always the best one to try to get to. Often times you'll see a pattern that just leads perfectly to another, less ideal, break ball. I've seen quite a few runs, including some of my own, end early because the player gets focused on a particular break ball and tries to play a pattern around that break ball when, perhaps, a much simpler pattern existed that led to a less ideal, but workable, break ball.

Tap tap, very well said Jimmy.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Thanks, Steve. Let me ask you this, though. Do you LIKE the 1 as a key ball? Would you leave this ball in place early on in the rack and look for a set up ball to leave you good on the 1. For that matter, if you have a set up ball that leaves you in perfect stop shot position for the 2, would you then consider the 2 a good key ball?

I ask this because I often use a key ball like the 1, or even 1 and 2 in tandem. I just wonder whether I'm missing something because it does seem to work out pretty well.

thanks,
dan white

Dan, I just realized I didn't answer your first question, about whether I like the 1 ball and would leave it intentionally. It's a fine key ball; however, I find that I plan to keep this ball only if I have an open rack, but one without a better end-rack pattern. If I can find it, I'll always opt for something like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3DNhI4FKgw3HDvf3MNao4PBYG3qKJkA&ZZ4rHPdB&ZZ@

The 6 to the 8 to the 4 is just so superior because it's stop-stop-stop. When I'm playing well, these are the kinds of outs I will have. When Danny Barouty is playing well, he might have this end-rack on 6 or 7 consecutive racks. It's really quite a luxury watching him play.

- Steve

 

[RobertR]

OK, that's it for now. Hope this helps some of you.

- Steve

Help doesn't even begin to describe it. Awesome post Steve. Thank you.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Hey Willie. My quick answer would be to say that as soon as they become slightly missable, they must be considered exactly as any other ball on the table. That is, if the benefits of shooting it right now outweigh the risks of missing it, then you should still shoot it. But note that is exactly the same mindset I will have when choosing ANY ball to shoot.

The reason I wanted to put a spotlight on a straight-in (technically unmissable lol) shot like this was to demonstrate the benefits of the so-called "free" ball. You get to shoot it, you can't miss it, and it does nothing negative for you position-wise.

- Steve

Good question Willie. To me it depends if I have been at the table or if it is my first shot. If I have been in the chair for a while and have just got up to shoot---I like to make a couple easy shots to get the feel.

 

[bruin70]

I am by no means a 14.1 expert, but in regards to this shot, could a safety like this be somewhat possible?:

Kind of leaves you at the same spot without having to foul.
Maybe too low percentage yet I'd thought I throw it out there.

Anyway, awesome post. Keep em coming!

go for the 1.

there's no point in safetying your way.
you take a chance on 1.fouling anyway,,,2.seperating the cb from the rack which you don't want to do(and which is why you're contemplating the shot you've chosen),,,3.he's gonna try the 1 no matter what you do, so you may as well take an intentional twice and keep the cb frozen.

 

[bruin70]

oops..sorry guyz. i didn't realize steve already posted that. been having trouble with the link/shockwave so i only saw another poster's reply.
carry on

 

[bruin70]

being a right-hander and an odd duck anyway, the 14 is the perfect breakshot for me, and i would use the 12 as a setup with the 9/6 as the third ball. main problem is, i don't know if i could spread the center cluster away from the 14/12...that would be my biggest problem.

the reason i opt for this pattern is that i have problems positioning the cb where i want to the more distance i have to cover. therefore i always eliminate the balls at the other end of the table and try to do all my work in the front half of the table. the 12 is just sitting there and rolling the cb after the 9/6 for a side pocket shot on the 12 is my cup of tea. in fact, i find positioning off the bottom rail has the most room for error of any setup/3rd ball i know.

 

[Dan White]

being a right-hander and an odd duck anyway, the 14 is the perfect breakshot for me, and i would use the 12 as a setup with the 9/6 as the third ball. main problem is, i don't know if i could spread the center cluster away from the 14/12...that would be my biggest problem.QUOTE]

What diagram are you referring to?

thanks,
dan white

 

[Dan White]

I feel like I'm in heaven in this forum. Way to go Blackjack!


Let me leave you with this, though, if you do plan to leave the 2 (no matter how you plan to get on it): stop what you're doing and envision the exact spot you want your cueball for position on this ball. I find that with balls on the rail (or very close), my "mind's eye" for position on this type of key ball can often be off by as much as, say, two full ball-widths. So I no longer trust myself positioning for these balls without actually going over to that part of the table and getting it right.

- Steve

Interesting observation. I'll have to remember that one. I recently watched John Schmidt's 245 ball run and noticed that he reaches out with his cue and puts the tip on the table when he's ready to shoot the key ball. This seems to help him visualize exactly where he wants the cue ball. I know this isn't exactly what you are talking about, but it does show how you need to pay a little extra attention.

thanks!
dan

 

[bruin70]

being a right-hander and an odd duck anyway, the 14 is the perfect breakshot for me, and i would use the 12 as a setup with the 9/6 as the third ball. main problem is, i don't know if i could spread the center cluster away from the 14/12...that would be my biggest problem.QUOTE]

What diagram are you referring to?

thanks,
dan white

........#2........

 

[pdcue]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. They mean a lot to me. I always tell myself I will try writing a book or doing a video one of these days... these replies tell me it might actually be well-received .

Anyway, thanks again...

- Steve

Let me add one more big thank you from
the if-I-could-only-play-like-he-does crowd.

A video is a great idea, put me first on the list to purchase.
You can convey so much more information, a few well chosen demo
shots with good explainations equals weeks of watching players
run racks.

A while back, when someone posted asking how he could best
improve his 14.1, I seriously considered posting:
"move to New Jersey for a year, then move to New York City"

this Forum might be the second best choice

Dale<who will miss all the other AZ forums>

 

[jwpretd]

This presentation is a 14.1 lovers dream and very important!

I'm also very grateful to Steve for sharing his knowledge. I'm equally grateful to Wei for his hard work in producing the tool that allows presentations like this to be made relatively easily. Without Wei's CueTable, it would have been much more difficult, and perhaps prohibitively so, for Steve (and others) to give us this information.

Again, thanks Steve... and Wei

-- jwp

 

[VKJ]

Steve- Test Video?

Steve,

Just an idea. If you ever want to do a test video shooting at ABC let me know. I've got a great pro camera and would help you in a heart beat. Any length and you could view it instantly and could get an idea if and how you might want to do it.

JJ

 

[Kevin]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. They mean a lot to me. I always tell myself I will try writing a book or doing a video one of these days... these replies tell me it might actually be well-received .

Anyway, thanks again...- Steve

Well, we mean it. Really.

It is far too few and in between we get to see straight pool as it should be played by top players.

I had to learn from rules with my best friend back in 1973 without benefit of watching any player ever play the game before. Sadly stunted, can we say, too many 8-6 racks.

Get any friend with a video camera and tripod, tape some matches or practice sessions, digitize it and dub in audio (and don't forget to pause action if the situation demands, try and explain some options and what you are thinking about when deciding between balls to shoot and why and likely patterns you consider (then why you ditch them later!). We don't ask much, but good lighting is a plus, great camera angles would be fabulous but difficult to cut in properly without Accu-stats level production values. Talk to Pat Fleming, Patterson, NJ isn't that far away and he digs the game. Heck, play him to 527 points and do a DOUBLE PLAYER review tape.

In return, make a DVD or tape, sell them for $35 per privately as John Schmidt did, everybody is happy with a large smile on their face. Be a pro, make money, pass on the knowledge we will GLADLY pay you for. Granted you won't get rich, may not sell more than 50 copies before it is pirated away, but you will be famous forever (Youtube.com!) and rewarded here, socially, at the very least. Need a beer after? Okey dokey.

Are the basic tenets of capitalism of providing a desirable product at reasonable prices to willing customers so hard to understand? Why won't you sell us what we want to buy? Steve, quit being selfish and get off your duff and SELL US USEFUL INFORMATION ON VIDEO.

SIGNED:
A Willing Waiting Wanting Customer, either privately made, with Accu-stats, or better yet both independently. Just so we know you really aren't full of sh33t.

<Jerry McGuire moment ON> Show us the hundreds! Show us the hundreds! <OFF>

 

[Hank]

14.1 LOVE THE GAME[just can't hit the triple]

Thanks Steve,this should help me reach my goal.>>HANK<<

 

[john schmidt]

great stuff

great job steve,if i was as articulate as you and could type as fast and well thought out i would love to contribute like this.

everybody on here is fortunate to have someone as smart as you to help them learn. ive learned some things from your posts as well and honestly dont remember ever disagreeing with anything you say.
you play damn sporty too.

 

[alphadog]

GREAT THREAD!!! In #2 diagram, why not just shoot the 13 now with easy draw to break the cluster? Funny that really is a tricky little table.the more I look at it the more I wanted to break that cluster now!
I do see the value in the shot you propose and I really appreciate this thread. Thanks Jack

 

[woody_968]

What a GREAT thread!

Thanks Steve, and PLEASE keep em coming

 

[dmgwalsh]

Great Stuff

With all the interest in 14.1 on the board lately, I figured I'd try to contribute. So here's some more tips and ideas I'd like to share. This might not be as well presented as some of my other threads on this (and threads by blackjack and sjm, in particular), because it's more just a collection of various ideas I want to convey.

First I'd like to apologize because I don't know how to insert the new wei table into a post. If someone would kindly tell me, I'll edit this post. The WEI tags in AZ seem to only work with the old table, which isn't exporting the 9-ball properly no matter what I do. Sorry.

1) Faced with a tough shot

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKGU4BCYH3...HAUH4ICrh3JFrl4KDvW3LBrW3MEdV4NKAA3OWjI3PBis@

From this position, you simply must take two fouls by tapping the cueball. The beauty of it is that your opponent is doing the right thing by taking them right back. You are faced with a very, very difficult shot, with a make-percentage definitely under 50%. There is no safe.

You are essentially conceding to eventually taking the shot, but at least you've built in the equity that if you make it, you have an opponent on two fouls.

I am going from memory here, so I'm assuming that a make-percentage on something like this would be about 30%. If I'm wrong and upon setting it up on a real table it looks like my percentage would be significantly under that, I'd consider taking the third foul. But with chances of around 30%, taking the third foul is a little too conservative for me, especially with the added equity of having an opponent on two if I were to make it.

If your opponent elects to shoot this, well, tell him to have at it. You've gotten your opponent to shoot a shot he's going to miss more than half the time. Nothing wrong with that. This is why it's right for him to pass the shot back to you. Even when faced with a dire situation, you can make the best of it with this strategy.

This is an especially useful play when you have just run a bunch of balls. Your opponent has been getting cold in his chair; there's no way he's getting up and making this. He'll give you the two fouls in a heartbeat.Steve

Looks like no way out of a bad leave. I probably would have just shot it, but what you say here echos what I have heard Danny D say too many times, but is probably appropriate here.

2) Sculpting the table

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKGU4BCYH3...3JUkq4KDvW4LJIv3MNao4NKAA3OasA3PNYV3qUpPA&ZZ@

In this situation, you want to shoot the 10 and then the 15. But look at that 3 ball. It could be used as a key ball for your eventual break shot on the 13, but it has to be moved. Shooting the 10 and going off the rail with some low right should do it perfectly. And with the 15 right there, there are no worries of not having another shot. You should be able to get the 3 to somewhere around the "A" on a very consistent basis.

When I see my opponent do something like this, I know he can play. I know he is shooting and moving balls with a purpose.Steve

Nice bumpage. I am to the point where I bump a few balls to be break balls but I don't usually think of bumping balls to be key balls. Simple yet effective. Even though you have half a rack to break up, I guess it is never too soon to take a free shot to improve the layout.

3) Secondary break shot, choosing a side

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AKGU4BCYH3...W4LJIv3MNao4NKAA3OasA3PIvT3qKJkA&ZZ4rHPdB&ZZ@

You're in a great spot here, position on the 9 so you can get to the 6 on either side to break the little mini-cluster by the rack area.

Which side is best? A or B? Because of the arrangement of the cluster, you want to be at B. There are two huge reasons that B is the clear choice here. The first is situational; the tangent of the 7 off the 8 means that when you split the 7/4, the 7 is going to roll naturally off the 8 and give you a shot at it in the same corner you just made the 6. The second reason is more of a general rule, and it's that when making a soft secondary break shot, you don't want to hit the cluster full. If you elected to shoot the 6 from A, you will hit the 7 totally full. You may end up frozen on it, and even if not, you are pushing the 8 and the 4 uptable.

Breaking a cluster where you are splitting a couple of balls like this is an overwhelmingly better choice in almost all situations than one in which you have to hit the first ball full.

I don't know how helpful this one will be to intermediate-level players and above, but if you are a beginner and initially couldn't decide which side was better, study this diagram. You have to be able to look at a situation like this and know which side is better.Steve

I was going to say B, because I thought there would be a chance to break up the 7,8,4 and the 5,11,2 after brushing off the 7, but my thinking is probably off there. Your analysis is much more precise in that you know what is going where and what your next shot is. Plus after the 7,8 and 4 are out of the way, you may not need to break up the 5,11, and 2.

4) Look for balls that won't figure into any end-pattern, won't be used to break anything, aren't necessarily huge problem balls, AND let you pocket them now without sacrificing the position at all.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AasS4BCYH2...W4LCnp3MNao4NKxN3OasA4PFLR3qKJkA&ZZ4rHPdB&ZZ@

In this situation, you have a number of shots. In my opinion, the clear winner is the 11 up in the corner. It opens the position nicely without sacrificing anything; you'll pretty much have exactly the same shots after you make it as you did before you shot it. But you've removed another ball, a ball which doesn't belong in any end pattern. In effect, it's a free chance to remove a ball without having to rethink anything.Steve

I agree the 11 clears things and you are on it now. John Schmidt said something in one of his videos about a shot like this that you just fell upon. I'm not saying that is the shot I would think of, but maybe I will now

5) Look for balls that open the position

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AasS4BCpO2...D4LCnp3MNao4NKxN3OasA4PCYp3qKJkA&ZZ4rHPdB&ZZ@

Again, a multitide of shots from which to choose. But look at that luscious four ball. If you don't take your time through the mid-rack, you can overlook a ball like this. But examine how the position completely opens upon making it. You could play the 4 to the 2 to the 5, and from there, it's difficult not to get out of the rack. You've opened everything.Steve

Smart shot that clears things up.

6) Sculpting a rack - advanced

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4BITm3CAUT3...J3KLMA3LFrN4MbFJ2ObHs3PIbr1qbIdA&ZZ1rMGYB&ZZ@

OK, you have some problems here. The important thing to notice here is that you can't comfortably use the 8 as an insurance ball when you break the 10/15, because you'll be on the wrong side of the 8 to use it to get to the 13. And that 8 must be used in conjunction with the 13. So how to get an insurance ball on that cluster?

Look at the 11 and the 5. You have an angle to make the 11 in the side and move the 5 all the way down table (hitting rails at A and B). This will also leave you a good angle on the 7 to break the 10/15 (probably having to go off the end rail first). But now you've manufactured an insurance ball to go with it, so that you don't have to use the 8 as the insurance ball. You can now keep the 8 for use with the 13 later.

This may seem like an overly complicated example, and in many ways it is. But its intent, of course, isn't to show you what to do if this exact situation arises. Its intent is to spur you to think of creative solutions to problems you face, and to look at the table as a whole.Steve

Now this is something I never ever would have thought of. I figured I could use the 8 as insurance and figure out how to get on the 13 later, but this is an elegant solution.

7) A simple no-no

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4BITm3CAUT3...a3KPEa3LFrN4MRvo2OQja3PIbr1qbIdA&ZZ1rMGYB&ZZ@

This example is only to show the 13 and the 5. These balls are problems, though they don't look it. I learned this one from Danny Barouty a long time ago and I've never forgotten it. You don't want to get towards the end rack with two balls aimed into the same side pocket like this. Since you won't want to play these combinations (the first ball is likely to end on a rail somewhere), you have to get rid of one of the balls from each side before the end rack. But since good 14.1 play dictates often getting to the center of the rack area, you'll find yourself unable or unwilling to play any of these four balls over and over. MAKE A PLAN to remove these balls during the midrack, or even earlier; do not simply wait for an opportunity to arise just because they look like such hangers. I have seen a lot of runs end by this one mistake.

OK, that's it for now. Hope this helps some of you.

- Steve

I just heard Dick Lane saying this in his player review of the game with Archer. When there are two balls up there, they could be a problem if you wait too long. Very good point.

Great stuff, Steve. When I got home from playing last night and saw this, I decided to wait to read it with my coffee in the morning.

Some of the stuff I kind of know, but not to the point where I would be sure to do it. It just rings a bell with things I have heard and this reinforces and teaches us when to apply these things. Some of this stuff like item 6, I have never heard anybody talk about and have never even thought of but it makes so much sense. I didn't read any replies yet because I wanted to go into this with as clear a mind as I could, but I will peek at what my peeps have to say now.

Thanks for the lesson and when are you and Danny going to do some more video??:thumbup:

I did not even realize this was a 2007 post until Marop told me.

What the hell, with my Altzheimers, it's all new to me anyway.