Sometimes showing it to them in the rule book doesn't help. Last month I was playing in the Southwest Challenge and we had a BIH question. Pulled out the rule book, read them the rule, and they disagreed with the way the rule was written. The book doesn't always help.
More APA League Crap......
- Thread starter RunoutJJ
- Start date
Sometimes showing it to them in the rule book doesn't help. Last month I was playing in the Southwest Challenge and we had a BIH question. Pulled out the rule book, read them the rule, and they disagreed with the way the rule was written. The book doesn't always help.
IMO, I think you should just let it go and move on. You let this fester too long and it just makes you bitter about the whole league in general. APA leagues with their beginners and the "rule police" and D players with illusions of grandeur can take its toll on a skilled player who takes it too seriously.
FWIW, I always have a copy of the APA league rules, the Official Team Manual, and a print-out of any by-laws my league area uses (taken from their website) with me to league night. If someone CANNOT show me a rule that they say was broken from this assortment of material, then there is no infraction as far as I'm concerned. That said, the APA rules are fraught with "grey areas" and some situations simply are not covered at all.
RJJ, I do not like it when these types of chicken-sh*t fouls are called. It is not within the "spirit" of the rules, imo. I once got a BIH in an 8-ball match with my last object ball in front of (about 8") the side pocket and the 8-ball literally hanging by a mere thread on the shelf of the corner pocket. I shot a stop shot on the object ball and nudged the 8-ball in the corner with a half-ball hit and got called for not marking the pocket. I could NOT have even hit the 8-ball without making it in that corner pocket. Yes there's a rule for marking your pockets, but this is NOT the shot that the rule is intended to cover. So, in the "spirit" of the rules it was NOT right for my opponent to take this game from me (I would never in ANY circumstance have taken a win in that manner) but it was a rule that I could not argue since it is covered in the rule book. In your case, since the cue ball had stopped moving, no foul had been committed. Certainly one that SHOULD NOT have been called by anyone with any class and sportsmanship.
Good luck in the future and hang in there with your league play. I can take APA league play a lot better now that I finally see it for what it is. I hope you can do the same.
Maniac
I agree with you that it's inane for someone to call you for not marking the pocket in that situation, but I'm also the guy who reminds my opponent to mark the pocket when they're on the 8. I think the rules should be followed, and I think both teams should root for whoever's shooting, procedure-wise, and let the shooting decide the outcome.
That said, this isn't just an APA problem, or even a league problem. There are people who are willing to win on made-up (or real) technicalities all over the place. I've more or less stopped playing 8 ball with people I don't know, 'cause there have been too many instances of shenanigans.
Here's my favorite one: I'm playing call-pocket with this guy at a local bar. He wins the first two games, whatever, he was shooting well. Third game, I'm on the 8, 8's just off the rail, shoot it down to the corner pocket, it rattles and drops. He says I didn't call the rattle. I tell him we're playing call pocket, not call shot. He says you always have to call shot on the 8. (At least one of his 8s rattled, if i recall.) So I don't play that guy in 8 ball any more, it's just not worth it.
Absolutely spot on, 100%.
Nail on the head!!!
In more or less what you posted is how I felt about the whole situation. League or no league the point I was trying to make is exactlly this... Don't be a douche bag!! Have some self-respect and respect for your opponent. All in all its league not the US Open!!
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Just found our Local bylawsHere's the ruling that got twisted for this guy to pull this cock-o-mainy BS...
d. In 9-Ball, altering the path of a cue ball in motion, when shooting at any ball, is a LOSS OF GAME foul. A loss of game foul is entered on the score sheet in this manner:
1. Add 1 inning to the game.
2. The non-shooter receives credit for all balls still on the table.
3. The non-shooter breaks the next rack.
e. Both players must wait for the cue ball to come to a complete stop before touching it. EVEN THE INCOMING SHOOTER must wait for it to stop! If the incoming shooter touches the cue ball before it stops, it will be a ball-in-hand foul for the player that just shot.
f. In 9-Ball, altering the path of a single object ball in motion, including the 9-ball, is a ball-in-hand foul. Object balls other than the 9-ball that are pocketed as a result of this stay down and are added to the opponent player’s total score. If the 9-ball is pocketed it is spotted immediately.
g. Altering the path of more than one object ball is loss of game. This situation is scored as in e above.
The cueball was at rest and the 5 ball was moving.. So as the Operator stated earlier... The guy was a low level cheat :nono:
Wouldn't this have been helpful to have during the controversy? In my league area the by laws are given to each team at the beginning of the session. Everyone has them everyone is responsible to know them.
Your captain did you a disservice by not knowing the bylaws (you said he sided with the other team) and once play recommenced it is a done issue.
Your opponent didn't cheat (he was definitely a nit) he misinterpreted the rules and both team captains sided with him. The best thing you could have done was calmly ask to see the rule that was violated in print. If it couldn't be provided then all disagreements are supposed to be decided for the shooter (you were the shooter when the "foul" occurred) just as a close hit without an observer does.
You should have kept your cool and bet him on the table which you obviously feel you could have done if not for the distraction of the controversy.
It's over put it behind you and learn from it.
I know this topic has been done to death but I really need to vent about this. Here's the situation:
Im an SL8 playing a SL5 in APA 9 ball. I win the lag, break and then start playing the rack. I get funny on the 3 ball and foul. The cueball comes to a rest and I pick up the ball to hand it to my opponent and he calls me on a ball in motion rule
Aparently he said that the 5 ball was still in motion when I grabbed the cueball after it came to a halt. I look back at the 5 and I was in the middle of the table with no other balls around it. No chance of it hitting anything or going into a pocket. Yes granted this is a rule (Stupid one in fact) but was it really neccessary for him to call it instead of letting it go?? I argue with him about it for a solid 5 minutes and finally say "F" IT!!! Ill spot you another 8 points to your nit ass if thats how you're gonna be about it :angry:
He's talking crap to others while im playing and just being a royal ass!! He does this to everybody (word around the league) so its not just me but come on already.. ITS LEAGUE MAN!!! Like he's gonna win when he goes to Vegas?? Give me a break :lol:
Well I couldn't get past it (not very professional on my part) and I played like shit and end up losing by 18 points... Well really 10 points
I was still heated because of how I felt about the opening rack. This is a guy I really like when Im not playing him but I really felt that he was being unsportmans like and needs to realize that. It wasnt the point of losing to him... I don't mind losing as long as you beat me on the square and with a level of honor and respect. Which there wasnt any.. I guess its because everytime I've played him I spank him good. One 8 ball tourney I played him twice and won 5-0 both sets. His attitude was the same there aswell... He's was there booing me and cheering for my opponent on the rail with his buddies when I was playing my next opponent. Really?? Grow the hell up!!!
Im a really nice guy but you can only take so much before you blow up. Well after this league match with the unsportsman like behavior his buddies start to get at me when I was going off on him for the shit he just pulled. Normally I let it go and move on but this was the straw that broke my back.
This get more heated and his buddies started to get really agressive saying lets go to the parking lot and yadda yadda yadda.. One of them goes after my chef from work that came along to hang out. Eventually management stepped in and calmed everybody down... Lucky my chef was calm because even though he's a bigger or heavy set guy he was a sergant in the army and his dad was a coloneil.. Definitely somebody you dont want to dance with..
Funny but I read about this topic a lot on here and think this doenst or wont happen to me. Yes he was right when calling me out on breaking a very stupid rule.. Yes I was wrong to not let it go and play my game win or lose. It just goes back to everything that has happened in the past with this guy that got the best of me. In the future I'll remind myself to stay calm collected and professional but as for league play.... Never again. Im offically retiring :boring2:
If he's reading this then Im sorry for my behavior. Your a great guy off the table and I really like ya but you need to work on being a good sport and not a nit.....
Rant over.......
The part I don't get is this: if you already fouled and were about to give him ball in hand, why would it matter to either of you if you picked up the cue ball before the 5 stopped? There is no real enforcement for that rule. I am extremely familiar with the APA rules. If you had NOT fouled, you wouldn't be touching the cue ball anyway. So I can't figure out what the opponent was looking for? Ball in hand twice? He was getting ball in hand anyway. If he called some foul on me *in addition* to the foul for which I was already handing him the cue ball, I think my response would be "ok, you better take ball in hand I guess ;-)"
What am I missing?
KMRUNOUT
Their local bylaws include a "loss of game" foul if you "alter the course of a moving cue ball". His opponent called that foul, except that it was the 5 moving, not the cue ball. Personally, I think nitpicking rules like that only slow the game down and lead to more arguments, not fewer.
The team manual only refers to loss of game fouls in terms of "altering the course of a ball in a losing situation", i.e., you miss shooting at the 8 ball and the cue ball is headed to a pocket, or the 8's about to go in early and you stop it. 9 ball doesn't have the same rule because you can't lose in 9 ball on your shot.
I think the issue was not so much the "redundant" ball-in-hand penalty, but rather the fact that he had to give up points because of his opponent's malicious bending/misinterpretation of the "rule." It was VERY opportunistic on his opponent's part; part quick-thinking-on-the-feet, and most definitely maliciously opportunistic.
But, you have to remember -- the APA is made up of folks from all walks of life, so extend that thought to different folks' definition of "ethics," and you got quite a spicy stew. Some ethics-challenged folks think what the opponent did was a "great move -- quick thinking!" But the more ethically-rooted of us will know it for what it is -- an opportunistic "move."
-Sean
Why did I get so upset?? Did you not see my original post?? He claimed that since there were still balls in motion (after the cue ball came to rest) that it was a foul to pick up the cue ballwhile other object balls where in motion!!! Even if they those object balls where on their dying roll... Since I did this he was suppsoe to be giving the remaining points on the table with him breaking?? Yeah... That was his claim and he got that which in my mind is taking advantage of OUR ignorance and his gain which on the whole is cheating!! Should he deserve to win this match?? I dont think so!!
Since your part of the APA is there any way of fixing this?? Is this bullshit call an infraction to the rules and I should be penalized 8 points for the remaining balls left on the table??
Futher more can I dispute this match and ask for a rematch considering how close the scoring was because beleive me.... I would love another shot at this guy if that could be the case.
To me some people use LOOSE ruling to their advantage but if I can replay this match then I want to do it!!! Again its not about winning its about respect and I hate to say it but the APA league has a bunch of jerks that pull this type of shit all the time. League players lack RESPECT to people that they deem to be out gunned by and its pathetic and unsportsman like... Sorry if i come across as Bit+ching about petty things but what is the league suppose to teach again?? Fairness and sportsmanship am I right?? Last time I checked you try to establish that... Not some two bit shark taking advantage of people to win his matches!! Really is a black eye to the league on the whole tbh... Sorry to be a richard but it is what it is. Disrepect and cheating at its highest degree!!!
So that being said... What is the proper way to handle this situation Mr. APA (No disrepect its your avatar)
The bold part above was not clear in the original post. This is a totally made up rule. You NEVER EVER get points for balls you did not pocket. Period. If you move a ball other than the cue ball, he is required to replace them to their original location (it is NOT his option). Like another poster said, make him show you the rule in the book. If you don't have the book handy, why wouldn't you call the division rep? Next time he's gonna say that the penalty is you have to pay him $100. Are you gonna believe that too? I think it SUCKS big time when a player tries to use the rules to thier advantage. As a 9 in the APA, I find that these type of bad sports are usually the mid level players who recognize they have no chance on the table, so look for a way to win off the table. Its sad really. Sorry bro. Read your rulebook though!
KMRUNOUT
There is actually precedent in the rulebook for taking points you didn't earn, though. If your opponent "intentionally alters the layout of the table", you can take that as concession of the rack in 9 ball, and take the remaining points off the table. Usually that just means somebody dogged the 9 and left it in the pocket with an easy shot for you, so they drop it by hand or just pick it up to rack the next one, but occasionally somebody does something incredibly stupid, like sweeping all the balls across the table with their cue. That would be an intentional alteration of the layout of the table, and they just conceded you the runout.
Now imagine your local bylaws coalesced that fairly broad rule down to picking up a moving cue ball, but the rule wasn't well-known or well-understood, so people traditionally played it as moving a ball when any balls were in motion. Now you give up the runout by picking up the cue ball a second too early. That's what happened.
Sounds like our current government. Only the sticks and balls are our hard earned taxes.
Under circumstances of outside interference, we were always told to replace the balls and continue. So in your first example, what you and the other player did sounded exactly right. In situations of dispute, the two players are supposed to work it out (which you did). If the players CANNOT agree, the captains should step in. If they cannot agree, they should call the division rep. Sounds like if BOTH teams followed these guidelines, there would have been no issue.
KMRUNOUT
Right wrong good bad. Each has a distinct meaning. You were "right" in this case. However, ignorance of the rules is bad. If you're going to invest hours and hours over several months to a team, I really don't think it is unreasonable to be expected to spend 15 minutes to read the rule book.
The point is you could have avoided the annoying situation by knowing the rules, and the procedure for addressing a situation in which the rules cannot be agreed upon. It still sucks, I feel your pain.
KMRUNOUT
Nah I have a problem with both now. At first it was this guy but the APA has proving once again that they could give a rat if you get cheated. As long as they get there cash then their happy
Once again, you are ignorant of the system in which you play, and then blame the system. Try and understand this. There is a policy for how to handle a dispute. You totally ignored that policy. You guys didn't contact the division rep. If you couldn't agree, you should have stopped the match. You could have completed the other 4 matches of the night. Your captain signed off on the scoresheet indicating that you all agree this is what happened. Would you want a rematch if the guy had taken ball in hand after the incident, missed, and then you ran out the set? I wouldn't think so. You are getting some feedback from people here that could help you. Don't fall for the trap of defending yourself at the expense of learning some new perspectives on your situation. It would be awesome if people could receive advice and just say "hmm...I didn't think of it like that. I will think that over, thanks." I want those kind of people in the league.
KMRUNOUT
Just found our Local bylaws
d. In 9-Ball, altering the path of a cue ball in motion, when shooting at any ball, is a LOSS OF GAME foul. A loss of game foul is entered on the score sheet in this manner:
1. Add 1 inning to the game.
2. The non-shooter receives credit for all balls still on the table.
3. The non-shooter breaks the next rack.
e. Both players must wait for the cue ball to come to a complete stop before touching it. EVEN THE INCOMING SHOOTER must wait for it to stop! If the incoming shooter touches the cue ball before it stops, it will be a ball-in-hand foul for the player that just shot.
f. In 9-Ball, altering the path of a single object ball in motion, including the 9-ball, is a ball-in-hand foul. Object balls other than the 9-ball that are pocketed as a result of this stay down and are added to the opponent player’s total score. If the 9-ball is pocketed it is spotted immediately.
g. Altering the path of more than one object ball is loss of game. This situation is scored as in e above.
The cueball was at rest and the 5 ball was moving.. So as the Operator stated earlier... The guy was a low level cheat :nono:
According to these rules you were 100% right. What happened when the team captains pulled out their copy of the bylaws that they put in their rulebook and bring to every match? (Maybe there is a suggestion for your captain to combat situations like this in the future)
KMRUNOUT
You really are missing something here. He was not defending the other guy. He was telling you that *even though the other guy was a jerk and wrong for doing what he did*, you could have avoided the issue by *NOT GIVING HIM THE OPPORTUNITY* by following the rules.
I have received many speeding tickets. It bugs the hell out of me because I am a fantastic driver, very safe and skilled. However, even though the way I drive is "right", and in some cases the law is downright ridiculous, it is still in my best interest to follow the law *IF* I don't want to face the consequences of a ticket. Like my dad, who was a state trooper for 25 years told me: "The best approach to the law is avoidance". Meaning your best bet of winning with the police is to NOT ever have to deal with them.
KMRUNOUT
Reason #34,897 not to play in the APA. If this isn't reason enough for you to quit, I don't know what would be. Cheaters, poor handicapping, low life good for nothing players, there's just nothing to be gained from playing in the league.
league's are for bowlers.
league's are for bowlers.
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But how do you feel about it? Please don't hold back lol.