C'mon, Johnny... I lucked 'em all in.
:wink:
All I can say is that "for today" the medicine works - and for that I am very grateful.
More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
C'mon, Johnny... I lucked 'em all in.
:wink:
All I can say is that "for today" the medicine works - and for that I am very grateful.
he's got a good point, I really want to see the still elbow doing that power draw shot. That video was helpful in terms of showing power draw technique but not so useful in terms of the current debate. Keep wasting time here dave! You know you want to. We're a source of inspiration anyway, you know it's true.
I can drop my elbow and have the tip end up on the cloth. Means nothing, although I believe Dr. Dave.
I think this thread is getting derailed a little bit. Although some fellow droppers are more emotional than myself, I still don't see where anyone says you can't play well or perform with a pendulum stroke. Like I said, I shoot most of my shots with a pendulum technique (so I'd be eating my young if I were anti-pendulum).
Nobody said you can't draw well with a pendulum. I mean, if we're gonna say that.... let's define a test and have people submit their youtube videos and we'll classify the submissions as pendulum vs. drop. The pendulum contingency seems to think they can at least draw as much as a drop if not more, according to Randy and Neil. The droppers seem to think it's horsesh!t.
Someone define what "the shot" should be and let's all post videos on how well we can snap it back. No offense to Dr. Dave, but drawing full-length on a 8' table won't be in the top 10 if a lot of people reply. I'm just curious how many from each side would be in the top 3 or 4? 50/50? I dunno. Anyone wanna post videos? It'll be fun.
I think this thread is getting derailed a little bit. Although some fellow droppers are more emotional than myself, I still don't see where anyone says you can't play well or perform with a pendulum stroke. Like I said, I shoot most of my shots with a pendulum technique (so I'd be eating my young if I were anti-pendulum).
Nobody said you can't draw well with a pendulum. I mean, if we're gonna say that.... let's define a test and have people submit their youtube videos and we'll classify the submissions as pendulum vs. drop. The pendulum contingency seems to think they can at least draw as much as a drop if not more, according to Randy and Neil. The droppers seem to think it's horsesh!t.
Someone define what "the shot" should be and let's all post videos on how well we can snap it back. No offense to Dr. Dave, but drawing full-length on a 8' table won't be in the top 10 if a lot of people reply. I'm just curious how many from each side would be in the top 3 or 4? 50/50? I dunno. Anyone wanna post videos? It'll be fun.
I'm not sure if you were referring to Sapolis' video or mine. If you were referring to mine, I don't have fast-twitch muscles either. I was a long distance runner in college ... better for slow-twitchers. I can't run fast, and I can't dunk a basketball, even though I'm 6'3".
For me to get good draw, I need to use the long bridge length and "accelerate through the ball" as much as possible (but smoothly, without being a "jerk"). With the longer bridge length, I don't have a chance to hit the desired tip contact point on the ball if I allow my elbow to drop. Even when I focus on trying to not drop the elbow until after the CB is gone, I can't do it consistently ... sometimes the elbow drops prematurely, and I don't get much draw on the ball (because the tip comes up when the elbow drops).
Regards,
Dave
You're right. I can't help myself. I guess I'm higher on JoeyA's addiction scale than I thought.
Agreed. I've certainly learned a lot from AZB'ers over the years, and I'm sure I will continue to learn from and be motivated by AZB'ers long into the future.
Regards,
Dave
Fyi- when your elbow drops, your tip remains level because your hand is moving forward. It doesn't "raise" like you guys keep saying --- nor does it dip like a true pendulum.
Fyi- he was likely referring to my video! Just kidding. With 3 Daves here, it's confusing.
If your forearm is perpendicular to the cue in the set position, the tip will hit the CB higher than you are aiming if your elbow drops before CB contact. That's what I was referring to ... not getting enough draw because the tip comes up before hitting the CB as a result of premature elbow drop.
Depending upon how much you drop your elbow after CB contact, and depending upon what you do with your grip, wrist, and body, the cue tip can come up, go down, or go straight. I have seen many good players who drop their elbow after CB contact and have the tip come up after CB contact, especially on firmer shots.
Regards,
Dave
Knock knock.
Who is it?
Dave!
Dave's not here.
No, it's ME, Dave.
Dave's not here.
Open the door! It's ME, DAVE!
Dave's not here!
...courtesy of Cheech & Chong. :grin:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Who is it?
Dave!
Dave's not here.
No, it's ME, Dave.
Dave's not here.
Open the door! It's ME, DAVE!
Dave's not here!
...courtesy of Cheech & Chong. :grin:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Dave,
How many times do I have to tell you, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO ACCELERATE YOUR CUE THROUGH THE CUE BALL?
Sheesh!
JoeyA
Excellent point Joey! :thumbup:
Actually, that's why I put it in quotes. Also, if you listen to my video carefully, you will hear me say to think (not do): "accelerate through the ball." I think it is helpful to think it even if it is physically impossible to do it.
:grin:In fact, most pendulum strokers don't even accelerate into the ball. For more info, see:
The video features both pendulum and elbow-drop strokes, so it is certainly pertinent to this thread.
Regards,
Dave (not Spidey, and not Blackjack, just the Doc)
Well, now I'm really curious.
Johnny, which Dave were you referring to in your post:
Blackjack, Spidey, and myself have all claimed the citation. I guess we all want to be the person called: "Very sick."
Scott, thanks for the Cheech & Chong memory. I hadn't heard (or read) that in a long time.
Have a great weekend,
Dave
Excellent point Joey! :thumbup:
Actually, that's why I put it in quotes. Also, if you listen to my video carefully, you will hear me say to think (not do): "accelerate through the ball." I think it is helpful to think it even if it is physically impossible to do it.
In fact, most pendulum strokers don't even accelerate into the ball. For more info, see:
The video features both pendulum and elbow-drop strokes, so it is certainly pertinent to this thread.
Regards,
Dave (not Spidey, and not Blackjack, just the Doc)
I like at 2:40 in that video, you say the dude uses more wrist and drops his elbow for more power.
hahahahahaha!!!!! AHHH HAHAHA
You gotta make up your mind, doc.
Say it ain't so!
JoeyA (wonders what happened to the link as it's not working right now) It's working now and I couldn't believe my ears.
Spidey,I like at 2:40 in that video, you say the dude uses more wrist and drops his elbow for more power.... if you listen to my video carefully, you will hear me say to think (not do): "accelerate through the ball." I think it is helpful to think it even if it is physically impossible to do it.
In fact, most pendulum strokers don't even accelerate into the ball. For more info, see:
The video features both pendulum and elbow-drop strokes, so it is certainly pertinent to this thread.
Regards,
Dave (not Spidey, and not Blackjack, just the Doc)
hahahahahaha!!!!! AHHH HAHAHA
You gotta make up your mind, doc.
I never said you can't get more power with an elbow drop. Where did you get that from?
:frown:Most people can most certainly get more power with elbow drop. For many people, the added power comes from dropping the elbow before CB contact (e.g., see the quote below). Others might get more power with a post-CB-contact elbow drop because they feel more comfortable with the exaggerated follow-through and are able to be less constrained with their pre-CB-contact forward stroke.
FYI, here's a quote from one of my FAQ pages dealing with this topic:
Many people raise their body during the break because they also straighten their arm and/or drop their elbow. These two motions counteract each other, keeping the cue close to level at impact. Also, straightening the arm can allow many people to generate more cue speed by getting more of the shoulder muscles involved. However, accuracy (a center-ball hit on the CB and a square hit on the rack lead ball) are much more important than a little extra power, so body motion should be kept to a minimum if accuracy suffers as a result.
I have tried to use elbow drop and wrist snap to increase power on certain shots (e.g., extreme power draw), and I practiced it quite a bit. I just couldn't be consistent enough to trust it. I'm much more consistent when I keep my elbow still. The only time I drop my elbow is on the break; although, it has taken a lot of practice to get my elbow drop and body lift and lower-tip "set" position to get it to work reasonably well.
Regards,
Dave
Spidey,
I never said you can't get more power with an elbow drop. Where did you get that from?
Most people can most certainly get more power with elbow drop. For many people, the added power comes from dropping the elbow before CB contact (e.g., see the quote below). Others might get more power with a post-CB-contact elbow drop because they feel more comfortable with the exaggerated follow-through and are able to be less constrained with their pre-CB-contact forward stroke.
FYI, here's a quote from one of my FAQ pages dealing with this topic:
Many people raise their body during the break because they also straighten their arm and/or drop their elbow. These two motions counteract each other, keeping the cue close to level at impact. Also, straightening the arm can allow many people to generate more cue speed by getting more of the shoulder muscles involved. However, accuracy (a center-ball hit on the CB and a square hit on the rack lead ball) are much more important than a little extra power, so body motion should be kept to a minimum if accuracy suffers as a result.
I have tried to use elbow drop and wrist snap to increase power on certain shots (e.g., extreme power draw), and I practiced it quite a bit. I just couldn't be consistent enough to trust it. I'm much more consistent when I keep my elbow still. The only time I drop my elbow is on the break; although, it has taken a lot of practice to get my elbow drop and body lift and lower-tip "set" position to get it to work reasonably well.
Regards,
Dave
Maybe Spidey got it from Post #199. All you Docs look alike/talk alike.
JoeyA
I forget - I thought Dr. D was in the clique who said you couldn't get more power from an elbow drop.
Interesting to see that Dr. Dave feels you can.
Interesting to see that Dr. Dave feels you can.
Nice draw for that motion. I say this shot took a lot of power and that’s a lot of effort. However, as you pulled the cue back you raised the cue and you dropped it.
I say 1 inch or more for sure. I know that motion.
As for some parrot professing you did it you did, he kind of did with a little twist.
Then you two are exactly the people I've been looking for for years on this and other subjects. I just think you need to wipe the board clean and start looking at the other meaningful areas.
The idea of elbow drop for power isn't about getting more speed. I think that's a red herring. I think it's about ease of getting to that speed. Or, in other words, is it simpler to the masses to get to X speed with one isolated movement, or is it simpler (and we'd have to give a definition for simper) to use more muscles to get to that X speed.
Or, yet another way to ask, if you coordinate certain muscles (which may or may not result in an elbow drop during or before contact) what advantages can result? Clearly, there is some sort of advantage given the percentage of good players who will naturally drop the elbow.
It's a question that is associated with all athletic motions. Coordinated motions. Good players are good because they can coordinate the muscle motions, effectively making things easier by being less taxing to any individual muscle/joint.
I think (and I've been saying it on boards for over 10 years, so I want some credit like at least two other things said on this thread), that if you shoot power shots without dropping th elbow, you might be in danger of doing your body worse. Think Tennis Elbow or Golfer's Elbow.
Fred <~~~ doesn't have to "think" Tennis Elbow
Nobody said it's not possible to do that with a pendulum stroke. Just that it takes less effort with an elbow drop, see Mike Massey versus Australian Oyster for reference. If you can produce a power stroke like the AO did in his video in a real game, more power to you, but I for one can't and don't desire to make a stroke that looks that forced.
