More elbow dropping nonsense

I see the debate goes on.

I'll put my two cents in.

As has been noted before, the elbow drop keeps the cue tip on the same plane through 95% of the stroke. Which means that "if properly executed", one will hit where they intend on the vertical axis.

With a pinned elbow, one can theoretically drop into one's stance one with the bridge hand one half inch too close to the CB, and not be hitting where they intend to.

As a pendulumn stroke incorporates a parabolic motion, ANY inaccuracy (closer or farther away) in the placement of the bridge hand leads to hitting the wrong point on the CB. This is not so for a properly executed dropped elbow stroke.

Scott, you mention a "lot" of champions have built their game on a pendulumn stroke. Can you please post a few of them so we can check out their videos? I am really curious to what it looks like when they execute strong draws and various other power shots.

Russ
 
JohnnyP said:
Dr. Dave:

Before I forget, your notation at the end of the below quote reminded me of ???!!! used in chess books.

"I guess the secret to success for novice hackers is to drop their elbow and tighten their grip just the right amounts, where each effect cancels the other, so the tip ends up where they want on the CB.":eek: :confused: :grin-square:

Your draw shot was sick (sic?). Controlled violence.

In my clip I'm using my max speed. I don't think I can move my arm any faster and maintain accuracy.

KMRUNOUT:

Please post some of your videos.
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Actually last night in the pool hall I was thinking of this thread and tried to take some video of draw shots. I was planning to use (or attempt to use) both the pinned elbow and the dropped elbow technique. Sadly my phone is not much of a video camera, and it didn't seem to work. I will try to figure it out. Also never posted a video before, so I'll try to figure that out too!

KMRUNOUT
 
Neil said:
Hu, I really don't understand where you are getting this from???? I'm sure everyone has seen the 'toy' with the balls on a string. You drop one, and it hits the other, knocking the end one out and back to keep repeating the process. That is a pendulum stroke. It hits the exact same spot every single time. No compensations required. Nice and simple. Set up properly, the pendulum stroke is the same thing. I just don't understand why people can't seem to grasp that.??
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Neil read my previous post.

With a pendulum stroke, set your bridge hand slightly farther away from the CB, and because of the parabolic motion of the cue tip, you will put slight amount of bottom english on the shot.

At slower speeds, it may not be that big a deal. When struck firmly to slightly change the tangent line on a punch draw shot, it can put you out of position by six inches to a foot.

This does not happen with an elbow dropping stroke. If you set up a little too far from the CB, it does not matter. The stroke is "designed" to hit the same exact CB point no matter how far your bridge is set up from the CB. (Note, we are talking about when both strokes are executed perfectly.)

I just don't understand why people can't seem to grasp that.??

:D :D :D

Russ
 
justadub said:
Please forgive the ignorant question from this newbie, and perhaps I'm not getting any of this. But isn't it the shoulder that is really dropping, not the elbow? Again forgive me, as I can't go and watch all these videos that you folks reference. I tried to apply a little of what you folks are talking about (or what I think you are talking about, heh) at the pool room last night, and all I can come up with is keeping my shoulder in a more fixed and upright position, to allow the "pendulum" to swing beneath. And in doing so, I can see that I had been shooting with my shoulder in the "dropped" position previously, explaining at least some of my troubles...

So thank you, everyone, because I think this thread has moved me a little bit in the right direction. And it has been quite amusing watching the banter back and forth, in a mostly good-natured manner.
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Perhaps some definitions are in order. My room mate often refers to her "elbow moving" to mean that the elbow joint is rotating. So we need to be clear about the distinction between a joint hinging and a joint *changing location*. This thread is about whether or not the elbow should *change location* on the stroke. EVERYONE agrees that the elbow moves in so much as it hinges. In other words, it is the forearm that moves in the pinned elbow stroke. The location of the elbow does not change at all. When the elbow "drops", not only is the elbow hinging, but it is also changing location (moving downward as if to follow the forearm on the stroke.) In neither of these examples does the *shoulder* move. On the elbow dropping stroke, the shoulder will hinge as the upper arm moves down, but the location of the shoulder would not change. In the pinned elbow version, both the shoulder and the elbow remain fixed in location. The shoulder will not move *at all* (either by hinging or by changing location).

Hope this helps,

KMRUNOUT
 
Neil said:
Oh, come on Russ, are you really going to argue that a non-properly executed pendulum stroke is not as accurate as a properly executed elbow drop stroke?? O.K., I'll take the other side- a non-properly executed elbow drop is not as accurate as a properly executed pendulum stroke.
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No. Quit putting words in my mouth.

I am arguing that the elbow drop stroke is designed to hit the same CB aim point no matter where in the stroke the CB is placed.

The pendulum stroke is not.

Therefore, if one errors in bridge placement, the pendulum stroker will not hit the CB where he wishes.

This seems to add a level of complication to the pendulum stroke, whereas its' fanboyz like to advocate how the pendulum stroke is so much simpler.

:D :D :D

Russ
 
dr_dave said:
We also need to be more clear by what we mean by elbow drop. Early in the thread, it seemed people were referring to elbow drop only after CB contact. In this case, the stroke before contact is a pure pendulum stroke with a "pinned" elbow. It seems that most people agree that not dropping the elbow before CB contact is probably a good thing for most people, in general. However, there are some (maybe even many) pros who do drop their elbow before CB contact on most shots.

I think the pendulum-stroke instructors encourage the still elbow during the entire stroke (both before and after CB contact) because some people might not be consistent with when and how much they drop their elbow. This obviously doesn't apply to pros who have mastered their own individual type of stroke.

When discussing "stroke shots" or "power shots" or the break, the elbow drop being discussed seems to be mostly before CB contact. And it seems most people agree this can help most people create more cue speed more easily. And it also might involve less strain and fatigue.

For people who don't drop their elbow until after CB contact, the stroke into the CB is exactly the same as with a pure pendulum stroke, so both methods share any benefits up to this point: Mainly, if the elbow is still before contact, the tip hits the CB at the exact spot where you were aiming in the set position, with the cue at the same angle (which is fairly constant over a fairly large distance at the bottom of the pendulum motion). For people who drop their elbow before CB contact (intentionally or not), their shoulder and elbow motion (and body motion, if there is any) must be coordinated and timed properly to hit the desired point on the CB. Some people think this is more difficult to master, especially for a beginner. I agree with them. However, many people seem to like the straighter (piston-like), smoother, longer, and unobstructed follow-through that the post-CB-contact elbow-drop allows, especially with shots requiring more cue speed.

Regards,
Dave
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Well expressed Doc.
 
JoeyA said:
KNRUNOUT,
It's great to see others searching for ways to improve their stroke accuracy.

Since you have done a lot of research into this (especially with the video analysis) I was wondering if you had noticed any difference in cue ball path when applying Low-left or Low-right spin to shots where the cue ball is more than a three feet away from the object ball, using elbow drop versus pinned elbow. ????

Another thing I have noticed is most of the great bank pool players have the elbow drop almost as a benchmark to their excellence, especially on straight back draw shots or straight back stop shots where precision is at an even greater premium. The professional bank pool players may use elbow drop even more than the professional rotational players.

JoeyA
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JoeyA,

I regret to say that all the videos I took long ago were on crappy old VHS and are perhaps lost. Also, I must admit that I never specifically tried experimenting with left or right english with regard to the stroke technique. That would be an interesting test. My testing was definitely not very scientific. I basically just tried stuff, saw how it worked, and then tried other stuff lol. I would really like to make a video summarizing the things I came up with. I will certainly make that video known if I ever get around to making it :-)

KMRUNOUT
 
dr_dave said:
This is not correct. Keeping the cue tip moving in a straight line requires a "piston stroke," not a pendulum stroke. A piston stroke requires coordinated (constantly changing amounts of) elbow and shoulder motion. This is much more difficult to achieve than an elbow-only pendulum motion, where the grip hand moves in an arc, which causes the tip to move up at during the back stroke and down during the follow through (assuming the cue isn't being lifted off the bridge with a "death grip").

Regards,
Dave
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I suspect there is another alternative here. After watching the 1988 video of Hall and Strickland (referenced above) it would appear that at times the pendulum can be combined with a piston stroke. Buddy Hall impressed me with the use of one, the other, and both types of strokes (combined) depending upon the shot.

I think the pendulum establishes and keeps the stick on line. The piston at or just before contact increases follow through. I think we would have to view one of your great videos to determine if the contact was longer with a pendulum that converted to a piston at (or just before) contact. My suspicion, given that these players seem to use some form of piston stroke at and following contact on many shots is that they have learned there is "better" (more extended?) contact with a pendulum converted to a piston as needed. Alternatively, the combined pendulum - piston stroke may simply improve the quality of contact (straightness of the stroke).

I also noted that both Hall and Strickland tended to keep their sticks Parallel to the table when they were using top spin and nearly always had their sticks on the table when using draw. The finish position for the stick may need to vary.

In any case it would appear that both players were emphasizing a "straight through" the cue ball technique when using top spin.

Apparently, a pendulum combined with a piston stroke leads to a dropped elbow.
 
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Neil said:
Russ, I did read it carefully. That is why I said what I said. If you put the bridge hand too far back, it doesn't matter. What matters, is where that tip is at the set position. If that is too far back, which means that you are doing the pendulum stroke improperly, then you will hit the cb higher than you intend too. But, again, if you are doing that, you aren't doing it right. Of course you will get bad results when you do it wrong.

Just like the elbow drop, if you drop it too soon, or too much, you will not hit where you intend to. But, again, then you aren't doing it right.
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Okay, fair enough.

Either way, I wanna see some video of a champion who never drops his elbow. Heck, I'll accept video of a champion who drops his elbow less than 50% of the time.

You guys don't even need to find the video. Just tell me the name of the player and I will go find the video myself.

Russ
 
Neil said:
Joey, I don't believe it has anything to do with accuracy. The bank players tend to drop more because they tend to hit each shot much harder than normal to keep the consistency off the rails. Those that drop the elbow tend to do it more on any hard hit shot. If you drop your elbow, the harder you hit, the more you will drop on follow through, because the only thing to stop it is the range of your arm going forward. To extend it, many players jump up on the shot to get more followthrough, such as on the break. It doesn't do a thing to increase accuracy.
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Neil,

I'm not so sure that the goal of "jumping up" is to increase the amount of follow through. Long ago when learning how to power break, I used to think that power was somehow related to length of follow through. Now I know that this is not the case. I think the principle reason people lift up their upper bodies when breaking is to allow the upper arm to get into the stroke. Incorporating the power of the shoulder can greatly increase the power on the break. However, swinging a heavy object (an arm holding a cue stick) around your body is difficult without allowing your body to move off line. This is where the "leg kick" comes in. I hear lots of people say that pros like say Bustamante kick their leg back to get more power. I don't think that is true. I think what is happening is that the leg is serving as a counterbalance. When you swing the arm, you are forcing a bit of rotational force on your spine, and the momentum of your arm wants to either rotate your shoulders or pull your upper body off line in the direction of your shooting arm. By kicking the leg back, there is now a counter-force rotating the spine in the opposite direction. These two forces cancel out to allow the upper body to remain stationary and not pull off line. This has been my own observation.

KMRUNOUT
 
Thanks dave! Now I don't have to point that out! :thumbup: In a true pendulum swing, the cuestick IS only level at contact with CB (it's not level at the end of the backswing, and not level at the natural finish). IMO that's the only time it NEEDS to be level, for an accurate strike on the CB (which, remember, is only 3mm across).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

dr_dave said:
This is not correct. Keeping the cue tip moving in a straight line requires a "piston stroke," not a pendulum stroke. A piston stroke requires coordinated (constantly changing amounts of) elbow and shoulder motion. This is much more difficult to achieve than an elbow-only pendulum motion, where the grip hand moves in an arc, which causes the tip to move up at during the back stroke and down during the follow through (assuming the cue isn't being lifted off the bridge with a "death grip").

Regards,
Dave
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Neil...Me neither! But I guess that is what makes the concept of "different strokes for different folks" always true! :grin-square:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
Hu, I really don't understand where you are getting this from???? I'm sure everyone has seen the 'toy' with the balls on a string. You drop one, and it hits the other, knocking the end one out and back to keep repeating the process. That is a pendulum stroke. It hits the exact same spot every single time. No compensations required. Nice and simple. Set up properly, the pendulum stroke is the same thing. I just don't understand why people can't seem to grasp that.??
Click to expand...
 
Neil said:
Russ, I did read it carefully. That is why I said what I said. If you put the bridge hand too far back, it doesn't matter. What matters, is where that tip is at the set position. If that is too far back, which means that you are doing the pendulum stroke improperly, then you will hit the cb higher than you intend too. But, again, if you are doing that, you aren't doing it right. Of course you will get bad results when you do it wrong.

Just like the elbow drop, if you drop it too soon, or too much, you will not hit where you intend to. But, again, then you aren't doing it right.
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Exactly! One key ingredient to a properly executed pendilum stroke is to get into the proper set position. Bridge distance has nothing to do with the set, but having the tip nearly at the cue ball while the grip hand is 90 degrees from the cue has everything to do with it.
In order to have the consistent stroke, you must first be consistent with where you start.

Steve
 
And just to give everyone a heads up, I talked to Bert Kinister this weekend about this at the Lewisville tourney, and he is very much against changing anyone's mechanics, so long as they are making the ball. :D :D :D

Russ
 
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