JoeyA...Me arrogant? Ha...read your own posts. The reason we teach what we teach is because it's EASIER to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke. Take the top 200 pros (that should cover about anybody out there)...let's say they all drop their elbow on every shot (they don't). If you looked at each one's "process" it would be different from the next guy, but works for that individual, due to persistance and longevity. Instead of trying to copy what some pro does, the average person, seeking to increase the consistency of their own process, is much better off finding something that they develop themselves, and commit to practicing long enough for it to become a habit, and replace what they used to do. This applies to appx. 39,995,000 out of the appx 40 million players just here in the U.S. The odd 5,000 players who have already developed what they like, should continue doing just that. Even so, we've had many top level champion players CHOOSE to develop a pendulum stroke with NO elbow drop. Apparently they must know something too.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
With all due respect to both of you, I am certain that these conversations do not *need* to devolve into pissing contests. Generally I notice that people are sensitive and defensive. All people. How they show this varies greatly from person to person. No one likes to be wrong, and most people derive a lot of security for their psyche from the comfort of what they believe they know. To paraphrase Socrates, "maybe I am the wisest man in the world, if only for the fact that I don't claim to know that which I don't know."
The fact is, this topic, from a scientific perspective, is really in it's infancy. There is very little in the way of scientific data and analysis in much of anything in pool. People like Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett are certainly working to change this, and deserve props. I think we might all try to keep minds that are a little more open. Perhaps we could not be so quick to defend our own position before fully exploring the position of the other guy. It really is a great way to learn new things, and learn more about what we already know.
Here are some assumptions that are not exactly "scientific" (at least as expressed in this thread) that could use a little more exploration and definition:
"All the top pros use the elbow drop." Ok, I mean, really all of them? Or is it only some? I have certainly watched a LOT of pros play pool. My experience is that the vast majority drop their elbows. I would say over 95%. I can think of only one or two who clearly don't. I watched Ignacio Chavez playing at Turning Stone one time. I only watched for a little while, but it seemed his elbow was really pinned. However, a year or so later, I watched him again on a video and it seemed he was dropping his elbow. Here's the point: let's avoid saying things like "all pros do or don't do this or that." We were provided with a video of Mike Sigel showing a pronounced elbow drop. Well who doesn't do it? What pro really pins their elbow and where is the video to show this?
"it's EASIER to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke [by not dropping your elbow]." This type of statement is conjecture. Without any data or experimental evidence, how do we *know* its easier? Because it seems like it would be? I think before a claim like this can be made, there needs to be a study done in which a large number of random people with no previous pool experience are taught how to play pool. One group would be taught the elbow drop, and the other group would be taught not to drop the elbow. At the end, the relative performance gains would be compared. Has something like this already been done? And let me just preempt the idea that "I've taught thousands of students...etc." by pointing out that this is not scientific. This is an observation severely biased by the instructors own experience of those situations. Remember that we all have personal biases, and the perception of a person's progress will be highly colored by the desire to validate one's own point of view. This isn't bad or wrong-we are all in this boat. However, it is also not scientific, and doesn't contribute as much to a body of information that is "true" for everyone.
The number one thing we can all say to ourselves, in my humble opinion, in any sort of debate like this is "I might be wrong". This is something that an extremely small percentage of people are willing or able to do.
Anyway, just throwing out some food for thought. I would love to hear from the professional instructors (not singling you out Scott, however I think your opinion is extremely valuable!) about *why* they believe it is easier to learn the no-elbow-drop method. I don't think the explanation is adequate that "there are less moving parts, therefore it is less complex, therefore it is easier to repeat". By that logic, the typical golf swing would be a total disaster. Look how many moving parts there are there!! Same with a tennis swing. Same with all kinds of motions involving any sort of swing or stroke. I think anyone who has played golf would agree that the typical professional swing involves a coordinated motion of hips, legs, waist, shoulders, arms, etc., and that this is the *best* way to do it, whether novice or pro. In other words, the way the pros do it in golf is the *right* way to do it. Why would it be different in pool? Let's face it, the motions involved in pool are far easier than in golf. Even Bustamante has far less going on in his stroke than any golfer has in their swing. So the question is: what evidence is there that it is easier to learn one method or the other with respect to the elbow drop? Also, what evidence is there to suggest that one method or the other makes certain shots easier? Obviously this will have a highly personal and subjective answer, but is there any consistent facts for us all?
BTW, one thing I'm not sure if anyone mentioned. For me, the elbow drop happened through research of my own body and motions. I spent a LONG time analyzing my stroke with video, and testing all kinds of things about it. For me, it turned out that the elbow drop seemed to be a better solution particularly with respect to power draw shots. I think the elbow drop stroke, when done correctly, can
increase the amount of time that the tip is at the height it needs to be! In a nutshell, that is the main factor that lead to my adopting that method. As others have said, the bicep contraction coupled with the elbow drop can net out to a tip that moves parallel to the table bed. The main advantage to this is that without it moving up and down, there is a greater chance that I will strike the cueball where intended. Thus for me, there is an advantage to the elbow drop method over the pinned elbow method. In the thousands of pool shots I make, I never really find myself saying "well, that shot went wrong because I hit the cueball too high or too low." I will miss, hit it too hard or too soft, but VERY rarely hit the cueball in the wrong spot on the vertical axis.
Anyway, that's it for now. I would really love to hear some input on the above questions.
Thanks everyone,
KMRUNOUT
