Mosconi Cup -- Is a Non-Playing Captain Even Worthwhile?

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
By all accounts Mark Wilson is a great guy but I just don’t think he or any captain for that matter, has much of an affect on the overall outcome of the Mosconi Cup.

Provided the information posted in Wikipedia is correct, up until 2006 there was only one year where we even had a non-playing captain. The other years we just had a team captain. So from 1994-2006 we went 10-2-1 overall. Now certainly some of those early years the matches had more of an exhibition feel to them and the European teams didn’t always have the best players on them but I was actually surprised when I went through the listings and saw how strong some of those earlier European teams were.

From 2007 on we have had a non-playing captain. In those years we have gone 1-7. Now you can say, “Well we just haven’t picked the right captain yet.” Or you say, “Those years the Europeans didn’t have a captain either so we didn’t need one.” Or you can just conclude that the captain doesn’t matter or even worse.

Before looking at the player/captain listing I already had a preconceived notion that the captain had very little to no affect on the outcome of the match. These numbers just gave me more reason to believe this and it makes me wonder if having a captain could actually be a deterrent for the U.S. team. When all the players are looking to someone else for leadership maybe that’s not such a good thing after all. Instead, maybe these players are better off coming together on their own – just like us amateurs do when we play in a team event. We don’t stand around and wait for someone who isn’t playing to encourage us and lead us in to battle. Instead we take that responsibility on ourselves.

I think the role that a captain should take could be defined several different ways. For Mark, I think part of this is being the coach and instructor for team U.S.A. Is that practical? Let’s be entirely honest here and not pretend like these U.S. professional players are actually spending time being coached and instructed by Mark. They clearly are not. These guys are all established professional players that aren’t really going to have their games influenced one iota by Mark.

Now for those of you that think I’m being hard on Mark, I’m really not. I just don’t think a non-playing coach or captain is all that beneficial in pool. However, there are things that Mark has done this year that are great and should be continued. Mark should continue to be the manager or promoter of the U.S. Mosconi Cup team. This is the area of captaining the team that I think he should focus on – not instructing and training. The idea of setting up venues here in the States for the players to come and compete at prior to the Mosconi Cup is a great idea and should be continued. He also helped weed out the bad behavior by the U.S. players this year. Those are both great contributions and he should be acknowledged for that.

My hope is that he embraces the role of manager/promoter this year and stops viewing himself as the coach of this team. This idea that he going to get the guys together and work them out with a radar gun and send them on their way is misguided I think.

Instead he should focus on fostering an environment that encourages competition among the U.S. players and rewards good play by inclusion on the team. He should also be more transparent in how he intends to select the players. If can do these two things I think he could have a more successful second year.

Or maybe he won’t. Does it even matter anyway?
 
The captain is there to make decisions: who will play which matches, etc. The players are there to play. They have to stay focused on playing...not on making management decisions.



You don't need a captain....until you need one.
 
I think it is.

First, professional athletes at all levels have coaches. Why is the idea so unappealing to pool players? In my opinion, the minute you stop learning is the minute you start losing.

Second, pool is an individual sport. The Mosconi Cup takes a bunch of guys who were trying to beat each out of their lunch money a week ago and expects them to suddenly play nicely with each other. Some kind of coach is going to be instrumental in making that happen.

A quote from last year's write-up from the Mosconi Cup:

“I think Europe in the last few years has been so good at having a team spirit, sticking together, supporting each other and that is all because of Johan. I want to thank him for all the effort he has put in over the years and I hope he will be back.”
- Niels Feijen http://www.azbilliards.com/news/stories/10824-its-europe-in-a-landslide/
 
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By all accounts Mark Wilson is a great guy but I just don’t think he or any captain for that matter, has much of an affect on the overall outcome of the Mosconi Cup.

The Europeans would disagree...

Provided the information posted in Wikipedia is correct, up until 2006 there was only one year where we even had a non-playing captain. The other years we just had a team captain. So from 1994-2006 we went 10-2-1 overall. Now certainly some of those early years the matches had more of an exhibition feel to them and the European teams didn’t always have the best players on them but I was actually surprised when I went through the listings and saw how strong some of those earlier European teams were.

The US teams were even stronger at that time.

From 2007 on we have had a non-playing captain. In those years we have gone 1-7. Now you can say, “Well we just haven’t picked the right captain yet.” Or you say, “Those years the Europeans didn’t have a captain either so we didn’t need one.” Or you can just conclude that the captain doesn’t matter or even worse.

I would say that greatly depends on the captain, the team spirit and the captain/team chemistry

Before looking at the player/captain listing I already had a preconceived notion that the captain had very little to no affect on the outcome of the match.

At least you are honest about it. That is a good thing.

These numbers just gave me more reason to believe this and it makes me wonder if having a captain could actually be a deterrent for the U.S. team. When all the players are looking to someone else for leadership maybe that’s not such a good thing after all. Instead, maybe these players are better off coming together on their own – just like us amateurs do when we play in a team event. We don’t stand around and wait for someone who isn’t playing to encourage us and lead us in to battle. Instead we take that responsibility on ourselves.

True, it would probably be best if the teammates took responisbility themselves. Remember last year when half the team did not appear to even take the event seriously enough to behave themselves at a minimum decent level. Who knows if they even tried to play their best. Maybe they did, but it sure didn't look like it. When things go wrong it is always good to have someone in charge who can think clearly, decide lineups etc. It will not always be seen as good when a teammate you think of as less skilled than yourself tries to coach you or give you advice. What if some teammate is acting out etc. In those kinds of situations it's good to have a coach or co-captain.

I think the role that a captain should take could be defined several different ways. For Mark, I think part of this is being the coach and instructor for team U.S.A. Is that practical? Let’s be entirely honest here and not pretend like these U.S. professional players are actually spending time being coached and instructed by Mark. They clearly are not. These guys are all established professional players that aren’t really going to have their games influenced one iota by Mark.

Marks or Johans jobs are to be responisble for other stuff, like heloping create motivation and team spirit, practical things etc. Having a coach ensures a smoother team dynamic among the players and ensures that things like lineups etc go smoothly, so the people playing can concentrate on the game, instead of distractions. It is also good to have someone to go to with problems, that is outside the players circle.

Now for those of you that think I’m being hard on Mark, I’m really not. I just don’t think a non-playing coach or captain is all that beneficial in pool. However, there are things that Mark has done this year that are great and should be continued. Mark should continue to be the manager or promoter of the U.S. Mosconi Cup team. This is the area of captaining the team that I think he should focus on – not instructing and training. The idea of setting up venues here in the States for the players to come and compete at prior to the Mosconi Cup is a great idea and should be continued. He also helped weed out the bad behavior by the U.S. players this year. Those are both great contributions and he should be acknowledged for that.

I agree whoelheartedly. The worst thing about last years fiasco was not the score...

My hope is that he embraces the role of manager/promoter this year and stops viewing himself as the coach of this team. This idea that he going to get the guys together and work them out with a radar gun and send them on their way is misguided I think.

Sometimes one needs to see the forest instead of the trees. The things he did were clearly for a reason. And it may not be the obvious one. If Mr. Wilson is to have any kind of effect on the team he must be established as an authority figure. The radar gun thing may not have been about the coaching per se. Anyone who has been in the military and shined their shoes 50 times will understand. Also doing things together, no matter how unrelated to your primary tasks, can create bonding. Ever heard of "teambuilding"?

Instead he should focus on fostering an environment that encourages competition among the U.S. players and rewards good play by inclusion on the team. He should also be more transparent in how he intends to select the players. If can do these two things I think he could have a more successful second year.
Or maybe he won’t. Does it even matter anyway?

More transparency would be good. I agree with most of this and I also feel that inclusion should almost entirely be merit based, with possibly one wildcard, if that is warranted. There have to be an extremely worthy candidate that for some reason did not qualify ordinarily for that to be used IMHO: The most important thing I feel is that the possible grounds for exclusion/disqualification be made public as well (the general guidelines not the particular cases).
 
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I would agree that they do not need a coach. AZ takes this MC event to an extreme level. Its a made for TV short race event. Pick the five guys, get them there a day or so early to have some fun as a team, practice a bit, and acclimate to the environment. Having a bunch of requirements through out the year to have expenses from the players is ridiculous--especially to have a few players not end up going. Once I saw the coaching names that were created to let down the 3 players it confirmed my hesitance to this whole 'coaching/team' mentality that AZ is hoping going to magically make the USA perform better against Europe.
 
The US did perform better against Europe this year.


Another quote from the article I quoted above:

For Johnny Archer it was a bitter pill to swallow; “Everything went wrong. We didn’t break the balls as well as they did, they played better, they were more of a team.


“The first day just killed us. We got behind really badly the first day and we were really search from there and it was very hard. They kept coming out and they won a couple of close matches.

“It is very disappointing and the whole team is really disappointed right now. All we can do is take a year to try and figure it out. It might be different players, all kinds of different things.

I definitely think we need to improve on being more of a team like the European team. That is the number one thing right now and that is what we have to do.

No one has ever claimed that they would win if they just had team spirit. But you're not going to win a team-based event without it.
 
The US did perform better against Europe this year.


Another quote from the article I quoted above:



No one has ever claimed that they would win if they just had team spirit. But you're not going to win a team-based event without it.



I'm not so sure that team spirit is a precursor to success.

I've never been on a successful pool team that didn't have a good time and appear to have good "team spirit" but that doesn't mean it was there before the winning began. We aren't talking about a traditional team sport here where you go through months of practices together and spent a lot of time side by side. It's a single event where you come together for a few days. The team part of this is being totally overblown, even by the players.

Did the European players have poor team spirit when they lost? I don't think so.

Winning cures all ills.

How many losing teams are said to have good "team spirit"?
 
I'm not so sure that team spirit is a precursor to success.

I've never been on a successful pool team that didn't have a good time and appear to have good "team spirit" but that doesn't mean it was there before the winning began. We aren't talking about a traditional team sport here where you go through months of practices together and spent a lot of time side by side. It's a single event where you come together for a few days. The team part of this is being totally overblown, even by the players.

Did the European players have poor team spirit when they lost? I don't think so.


Winning cures all ills.

How many losing teams are said to have good "team spirit"?

You can have great team spirit and still lose. I never said otherwise. But I don't think that at an event like the MC -- with opposition fans howling at every miss -- you can win if your teammates aren't supporting you.

And, to bring it back to your original point, the non-playing captain is the guy who will instill that. You can't expect one of the guys who spends all year trying to beat the others to suddenly jump up and lead... I don't, anyway... but then, I admit that I don't really know how these guys feel about each other outside the tournament hall.
 
Another thing as far as team spirit is concerned...

By all accounts the Univ. of Michigan football team had great team spirit going in to this year's season. Everybody was all excited about it. They had some great players and a really likeable head coach. When it came time to play -- they sucked. The players and the coaching staff still handled themselves with dignity and honor in defeat but make no mistake about it -- they sucked.

So I'm not so sure about team spirit.

Now how about teams that handle themselves with class and dignity? I personally think those are great character traits and they are traits I'm trying to instill in my children. However, I think it has very little to do with winning.

Let's see, I can think of the Univ. of Miami football teams from the 90's. How about the old Oakland Raiders. How about my beloved Detroit Pistons -- of the Bad Boy variety.

Working hard on your game is about the only prerequisite I can think of when it comes to being a great pool player and I suppose some of those traits listed above may help someone stay focused on their practice but you can be a real jerk (had to edit that one) and still work hard on your game, although you may not have many fans.

So while Mark is busy trying to create a more classy pool team, let's not think that if he succeeds in doing that he will automatically see actual improvement when it comes to winning. They don't necessarily go hand in hand.
 
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How about the 2014 Ryder Cup? A better example, I think, since golf is another individual-all-year-but-now-act-like-a-team event .

The US team was oozing talent and ability and still got smoked by the Euros.
 
Interesting and worthwhile question posed in this thread. I think a comparison with the Ryder Cup is in order.

In PGA golf, the top players, who have a tourney to play in every week, spend time together year round (including socially on pro-am Wednesdays), eight of the twelve Ryder Cup spots are earned on competitive merit and the captain chooses the last four. The last four picks are generally among the twenty best based on competitive merit. Team selection is a relatively simple matter. Most of the job for the Ryder Cup captain is at the event itself, where assessing matchups and in-event corrections based on performance are vital.

In pool, the players have few events in which to compete and can go months at a time without seeing each other. The coach has a much bigger role in establishing a rapport among team members during the year. That's the value added for naming a non-playing captain long before naming any team members.

I think a non-playing captain helps a lot in the Mosconi, and Mark Wilson is the man for the job.
 
How about the 2014 Ryder Cup? A better example, I think, since golf is another individual-all-year-but-now-act-like-a-team event .

The US team was oozing talent and ability and still got smoked by the Euros.

Where oh by the way we were underdogs also


1
 
Nobody steers a bottle with a note in it and it usually eventually gets somewhere so that bottle has no captain. But if you want get somewhere a place you intend to go a captain is a very positive thing for a bottle. Boat or mosconi cup team. Personally I think an active captain is a very good thing. I do not think we have any idea how much time both captains put in this year Iwod like to thank mark for his efforts at a very tuff task. Wonderful difference this year now we get some rolsl finish some games and some matches and bring that cup home
 
I'm not so sure that team spirit is a precursor to success.

I've never been on a successful pool team that didn't have a good time and appear to have good "team spirit" but that doesn't mean it was there before the winning began. We aren't talking about a traditional team sport here where you go through months of practices together and spent a lot of time side by side. It's a single event where you come together for a few days. The team part of this is being totally overblown, even by the players.

Did the European players have poor team spirit when they lost? I don't think so.

Winning cures all ills.

How many losing teams are said to have good "team spirit"?


I think the part about having a "good time" was part of MW's strategy and he chose players that would get along and support each other, as oppose to choosing team members that are so self-centered and self-destructive as to break the team down and be a negative v a positive.

Lou Figueroa
 
Another thing as far as team spirit is concerned...

By all accounts the Univ. of Michigan football team had great team spirit going in to this year's season. Everybody was all excited about it. They had some great players and a really likeable head coach. When it came time to play -- they sucked. The players and the coaching staff still handled themselves with dignity and honor in defeat but make no mistake about it -- they sucked.

So I'm not so sure about team spirit.

Now how about teams that handle themselves with class and dignity? I personally think those are great character traits and they are traits I'm trying to instill in my children. However, I think it has very little to do with winning.

Let's see, I can think of the Univ. of Miami football teams from the 90's. How about the old Oakland Raiders. How about my beloved Detroit Pistons -- of the Bad Boy variety.

Working hard on your game is about the only prerequisite I can think of when it comes to being a great pool player and I suppose some of those traits listed above may help someone stay focused on their practice but you can be a real jerk (had to edit that one) and still work hard on your game, although you may not have many fans.

So while Mark is busy trying to create a more classy pool team, let's not think that if he succeeds in doing that he will automatically see actual improvement when it comes to winning. They don't necessarily go hand in hand.

its very rare a team that does not have team chemistry wins anything , the teams you mentioned all had that
Today's version would be the Seahawks and who could possibly be the best coach in football
I know your sitting in the basement questioning a guy who no you don't play his speed nor do you have his expierence ,him being a former MC player and now teaches pool for a living ,,
He did not just stumble into the position he was chosen for his extensive knolledge of the game and his accomplishments to date ,
No it didn't mean we will win but it's a good place to start

1
 
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Excellent post Stu! I agree wholeheartedly! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Interesting and worthwhile question posed in this thread. I think a comparison with the Ryder Cup is in order.

In PGA golf, the top players, who have a tourney to play in every week, spend time together year round (including socially on pro-am Wednesdays), eight of the twelve Ryder Cup spots are earned on competitive merit and the captain chooses the last four. The last four picks are generally among the twenty best based on competitive merit. Team selection is a relatively simple matter. Most of the job for the Ryder Cup captain is at the event itself, where assessing matchups and in-event corrections based on performance are vital.

In pool, the players have few events in which to compete and can go months at a time without seeing each other. The coach has a much bigger role in establishing a rapport among team members during the year. That's the value added for naming a non-playing captain long before naming any team members.

I think a non-playing captain helps a lot in the Mosconi, and Mark Wilson is the man for the job.
 
its very rare a team that does not have team chemistry wins anything , the teams you mentioned all had that
Today's version would be the Seahawks and who could possibly be the best coach in football
I know your sitting in the basement questioning a guy who no you don't play his speed nor do you have his expierence ,him being a former MC player and now teaches pool for a living ,,
He did not just stumble into the position he was chosen for his extensive knolledge of the game and his accomplishments to date ,
No it didn't mean we will win but it's a good place to start

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I agree Mark is a good place to start; I just think too many people on here have unrealistic expectations when it comes to what Mark can actually accomplish. The feeling I get is people are viewing this as sort of a quasi national team -- sort of like an Olympic deal. The truth of the matter is the Mosconi Cup Team isn't even as much of a team as is a local youth soccer club team. I really don't see that changing any time soon either. It's just the nature of the beast. That beast being the professional pool player.

We just aren't as good as the Europeans and I think that has more to due with technique than it does with anything else. The problem as I see it from my basement is that today's version of 9-ball is a totally different game than it was in the past. The playing conditions at the Mosconi Cup make this so obvious to anybody that is paying attention. The need for a long, fluid, powerful stroke is gone. A player doesn't even have the need for a powerful break.

I watched just about every shot this year and I could probably count on one hand how many shots were good old fashioned stroke shots. The game has evolved into one that is all about finesse. Power is no longer needed. This plays right into the European's hands. In a battle of straight cueing and speed control they will when every time. Darren Appleton is the perfect example of the modern player. He has the perfect cueing motion for today's game -- a nice compact and accurate stroke. He never over powers the ball.

Contrast that with Shane Van Boening. He has long, fluid, and powerful stroke. However, when he shows up at the ice rink known as the Mosconi Cup he has no need for this big stroke. Not to mention, the guy is playing with a long and heavy 23 ounce cue on this surface. It's amazing he can play as well as he does on it.

SVB looks great when he's rolling but what we probably need is more guys that cue like Allen Hopkins and less that cue like Francisco Bustamante.

It's all about the cueing and I'm afraid the Captain's not going to be able to change that with established players.
 
I think the American players need a proper coach who will hold them accountable and keep them in line because things can get ugly in a hurry, as we've seen in the past.

Thanks to Mark, all the players, even those who weren't part of the chosen 8, know that they have to clean up their act if they want to be a part of future Mosconi Cups, and that's already a big step forward for American pool imo.
 
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