Mosconi Cup, Team USA, the real problem still exists.

SakuJack said:
I don't think 15 seconds is all that short a time, especially if you have an extension per rack at your disposal. 30 is fine, too, but equating taking 15 seconds over a shot to knowing nothing or just playing on instinct is an exaggeration.
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For your standard shots, yes, they are usually done in 15 sec. or less. The problem arises with extended safety play. At the upper levels, one mistake, one edge of a ball, can easily mean loss of game. Faced with multiple safeties in a game, which is not the norm, but DOES happen, one extension is just not enough. Some shots require some thought put into them, some even being actually measured out (which even SVB does on occasion). That takes more than 15 sec. to do.

So, in those games, you are limiting the players actual potential to make a great shot or safety in favor of just banging at the ball in the hopes of staying within the time frame and hopefully getting a good outcome from it.

30 sec with an extension seems about right. 15 seconds, you WILL have some games that the clock affects the outcome of the game, and that should never happen. The game should be decided by skill, not time.
 
Neil said:
For your standard shots, yes, they are usually done in 15 sec. or less. The problem arises with extended safety play. At the upper levels, one mistake, one edge of a ball, can easily mean loss of game. Faced with multiple safeties in a game, which is not the norm, but DOES happen, one extension is just not enough. Some shots require some thought put into them, some even being actually measured out (which even SVB does on occasion). That takes more than 15 sec. to do.

So, in those games, you are limiting the players actual potential to make a great shot or safety in favor of just banging at the ball in the hopes of staying within the time frame and hopefully getting a good outcome from it.

30 sec with an extension seems about right. 15 seconds, you WILL have some games that the clock affects the outcome of the game, and that should never happen. The game should be decided by skill, not time.
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I see your point, and honestly while I would like to see what 15 seconds looks like, 30 seconds is generally fine to me. You could argue, though, that quick, fluent shot selection is a skill in itself.

My main issue with shot clocks in general, is that the players are always conscious of them, regardless of whether or not they are comfortable playing with a shot clock. The players who really have them down actually play to the clock. Then when you have players keeping a very consistent shot time of around 25 seconds, even on super simple shots, it actually has the appearance and feeling of slow play. Slow play seems to plague pool, though, so it seems like the clock is the best option for now.
 
(((Satori))) said:
What about boxing or mma? Do the fighters have to present a clean image to bring in the sponsors? Floyd seems to be doing fine. The UFC seems to be doing fine. If a player grew up tough hustling for a living, a good promoter can use that to their advantage. People like to see that kind of stuff if it is done right.
How is pool going to bring in the fans? When this happens the sponsors will come.
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FYI : Floyd has no product endorsements.
 
TV is the key to success in pool

They're also turned Boxing into a Reality Show with the emphasis on training and preparing for the competition. I believe boxing is the best model for pool, even better than the golf, or Nascar examples. The Mosconi Cup is a great TV Event, and that's in no way an insult. I've been a player and coach two times and enjoyed participating. We almost won two years ago, and it came down to the last two matches - if we would have won either match we would have had a playoff and I'm convinced Shane would have been victorious.

TV is the key to success in pool, and I've said that in over a hundred posts in the last 16 months.....the Mosconi Cup is a TV Event that is very well done, however, I still wouldn't consider it a barometer of America until it's on ESPN.
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(((Satori))) said:
To be fair CJ said STRONG not gong.


Btw, golf has had a reality show for years now. There goes your theory that a reality show puts a sport in a bad light.

Plus almost everyone knows the story about how T.U.F. put the U.F.C. on the map and how it too has lasted well over 2 years. Again, there goes another one of your theories on reality shows. Apparently they can have a lasting effect.
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If boxing is indeed the best model for pool, pool is truly doomed. IMHO, boxing was ruined by crooked, greedy promoters like Don King. It got to the point if you weren't in King's "group", you were on the outside looking in. I can still remember when boxing events on TV (not ESPN) were big. Ali, Frazier, Sugar Ray, Holmes and even Tyson. The only boxing of any consequence now is PPV. MMA seems to have thoroughly displaced boxing.

I don't know what the "best" model for pool is but I would think the most desired model would be the PGA Tour. If you include the secondary tours along with it, you have more than 150 Professionals making over $1 million per year. The 132 ranked player on the PGA tour makes way more money than the #1 ranked pool player by a substantial margin.

IMHO, the path to success is not finding an existing model that best matches pool as it is now. Rather, it is to find a successful model that exists now and attempt to have pool match it.
 
nobcitypool said:
If boxing is indeed the best model for pool, pool is truly doomed. IMHO, boxing was ruined by crooked, greedy promoters like Don King. It got to the point if you weren't in King's "group", you were on the outside looking in. I can still remember when boxing events on TV (not ESPN) were big. Ali, Frazier, Sugar Ray, Holmes and even Tyson. The only boxing of any consequence now is PPV. MMA seems to have thoroughly displaced boxing.

I don't know what the "best" model for pool is but I would think the most desired model would be the PGA Tour. If you include the secondary tours along with it, you have more than 150 Professionals making over $1 million per year. The 132 ranked player on the PGA tour makes way more money than the #1 ranked pool player by a substantial margin.

IMHO, the path to success is not finding an existing model that best matches pool as it is now. Rather, it is to find a successful model that exists now and attempt to have pool match it.
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The only model that pool will ever even come close to is bowling the other family recreation game ,, reaching golf status is a pipe dream never ever going to happen

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nobcitypool said:
I don't know what the "best" model for pool is but I would think the most desired model would be the PGA Tour. If you include the secondary tours along with it, you have more than 150 Professionals making over $1 million per year. The 132 ranked player on the PGA tour makes way more money than the #1 ranked pool player by a substantial margin.
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So, I went to the PGA website and took a look at the 2013 money list. What I found remarkable was not the fact that in 2013 there was over $250 million dollars of total prize money paid, but it was the fact that I actually recognized 10 out of the BOTTOM 20 players on that list. I have no idea how this is so. I've probably played 3 rounds and watched about 3 hours of golf in the past 3 years. I subscribe to no golf magazines, and never watch the golf channel or sports center. I'm not sure how I recognize these names, but what a tremendous feat of marketing!
 
Trying to promote pool as a "squeaky clean game" is not believable

Yes, golf and pool are like "apples and oranges". Pool does have incredible appeal, however it must be presented in a way that is interesting.....and this is the gambling angle, people LOVE to hear the "underbelly" stories.

Golf has a big advantage in the that golf courses increase property values. On a national level this is Billions and Billions of dollars.

Pool is most like boxing, and what attracts people is the gambling and "underbelly" of the game. Trying to promote pool as a "squeaky clean game" is not believable and not even appealing to the general public.

I've answered questions about pool to tens of thousands of people and the majority will ALWAYS want to know about my gambling background and the "high dollar" matches.




one stroke said:
The only model that pool will ever even come close to is bowling the other family recreation game ,, reaching golf status is a pipe dream never ever going to happen

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CJ Wiley said:
Yes, golf and pool are like "apples and oranges". Pool does have incredible appeal, however it must be presented in a way that is interesting.....and this is the gambling angle, people LOVE to hear the "underbelly" stories.

Golf has a big advantage in the that golf courses increase property values. On a national level this is Billions and Billions of dollars.

Pool is most like boxing, and what attracts people is the gambling and "underbelly" of the game. Trying to promote pool as a "squeaky clean game" is not believable and not even appealing to the general public.

I've answered questions about pool to tens of thousands of people and the majority will ALWAYS want to know about my gambling background and the "high dollar" matches.
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Mosconi and Fats resembled the boxing model. I also like what Big truck has been doing with his fight nights. I think he has the smarts to make something of that event and both he and the players will benefit. I think there are other ways for pool to be successful too but like you I agree that we can't try to be too squeaky clean. It is fake and boring and that is not pool imo. Let the characters shine. Tar did a good job of letting the players be theirselves but it can be taken to levels above and beyond imo. I'd love to see some of the behind the scenes action when the match was being made for example.
 
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one stroke said:
What reality show has paved the way for any profession ,, it might help yourself and a handful of players but that's about it ,,
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Insightful point.
Reality singing competitions like American Idol, The Voice made millions for their coaches, creators. Coaches like Shakira, J Lo , Britney Spears earn at least $10 million for short stint. Mr Reality Show King, Simon Cowell raked in hundreds of millions. But the results of developing new singing talents is not great. American Idol having the best results in terms of number of best selling albums and Billboard hits still has not produced many big megastars. Maybe average stars like Carrie Underwood, Kelly Clarkson. Hottie Katherine McPhee has diversified into acting. The Voice is the better and more entertaining show and also better ratings now but has not produced any noticeable stars like Underwood or Clarkson. The winners of the Apprentice did not become prominent in business world.
I mean ex-pornstar Kim Kardashian made tonnes from her reality shows but did nothing much to bring mainstream fame and more money to other pornstars :D:D
 
CJ Wiley said:
They're also turned Boxing into a Reality Show with the emphasis on training and preparing for the competition. I believe boxing is the best model for pool, even better than the golf, or Nascar examples. The Mosconi Cup is a great TV Event, and that's in no way an insult. I've been a player and coach two times and enjoyed participating. We almost won two years ago, and it came down to the last two matches - if we would have won either match we would have had a playoff and I'm convinced Shane would have been victorious.

TV is the key to success in pool, and I've said that in over a hundred posts in the last 16 months.....the Mosconi Cup is a TV Event that is very well done, however, I still wouldn't consider it a barometer of America until it's on ESPN.
196138_559388797420494_2099497514_n.jpg
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tv is dying, everything is and will be internet based. get out of the past. Espn was horrible for pool. all they did was chop it ip in to little shit pieces. The reality of it is, pool is just not that watchable of a sport unless your a die hard. I love pool and I can only watch so much 9 ball and it has to be top notch. But I can watch one hole all day, figure that one out.
Matchroom does well with moscoin an other events because in place like England they where brought up watching snooker and other cue sports, we where not.
 
spartan said:
Insightful point.
Reality singing competitions like American Idol, The Voice made millions for their coaches, creators. Coaches like Shakira, J Lo , Britney Spears earn at least $10 million for short stint. Mr Reality Show King, Simon Cowell raked in hundreds of millions. But the results of developing new singing talents is not great. American Idol having the best results in terms of number of best selling albums and Billboard hits still has not produced many big megastars. Maybe average stars like Carrie Underwood, Kelly Clarkson. Hottie Katherine McPhee has diversified into acting. The Voice is the better and more entertaining show and also better ratings now but has not produced any noticeable stars like Underwood or Clarkson. The winners of the Apprentice did not become prominent in business world.
I mean ex-pornstar Kim Kardashian made tonnes from her reality shows but did nothing much to bring mainstream fame and more money to other pornstars :D:D
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Mma is a perfect example of what he was looking for. Dillashaw just won the title and he is one of many big name fighters who was made famous from the reality show. The whole sport was built on that show in America or should I say that it is what propelled the sport into mainstream.
 
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BJTyler said:
So, I went to the PGA website and took a look at the 2013 money list. What I found remarkable was not the fact that in 2013 there was over $250 million dollars of total prize money paid, but it was the fact that I actually recognized 10 out of the BOTTOM 20 players on that list. I have no idea how this is so. I've probably played 3 rounds and watched about 3 hours of golf in the past 3 years. I subscribe to no golf magazines, and never watch the golf channel or sports center. I'm not sure how I recognize these names, but what a tremendous feat of marketing!
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It cost 120 k + yearly dues to be a member at congressional with a 10 yr waiting list there is probably 20 clubs in the same area with a over 20k member fee ,, and the next best thing to a golfer other than playing golf is watching it ,,, yes Tiger made a boost but the game is the product not the player,, I can remember yrs ago we sat in the club house betting on putts on 18 from players we never knew after every round
Golf is Money , Poo is not ,, nor will it every be ,,

Boxing like pool ? Now that's the first I heard of that ,sorry but that dog does not hunt there is no comparing a world class physically fit athlete's to a pool player.. Tell a Boxer that one if you want a good laugh

Snooker is the only direct comparison , Bowling and Darts would follow in closely behind
Unfortunately Snooker has a jump start on pool and it's growing rapidly in Asia the best advise I have for any young aspiring person who wants to learn a cue sport I would tell the kick pool to the curb and grab a snooker cue and coach ,,,because that future looks much more promising ,,


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one stroke said:
It cost 120 k + yearly dues to be a member at congressional with a 10 yr waiting list there is probably 20 clubs in the same area with a over 20k member fee ,, and the next best thing to a golfer other than playing golf is watching it ,,, yes Tiger made a boost but the game is the product not the player,, I can remember yrs ago we sat in the club house betting on putts on 18 from players we never knew after every round
Golf is Money , Poo is not ,, nor will it every be ,,

Boxing like pool ? Now that's the first I heard of that ,sorry but that dog does not hunt there is no comparing a world class physically fit athlete's to a pool player.. Tell a Boxer that one if you want a good laugh

Snooker is the only direct comparison , Bowling and Darts would follow in closely behind
Unfortunately Snooker has a jump start on pool and it's growing rapidly in Asia the best advise I have for any young aspiring person who wants to learn a cue sport I would tell the kick pool to the curb and grab a snooker cue and coach ,,,because that future looks much more promising ,,


1
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Of course snooker is growing, there is MONEY in it. Snooker has been part of the culture in Europe for years. As long as there is money in it, it will grow.
No money in pool , no growth.
 
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